Are we discussing here cultures historically accurate or balance gameplay-wise ? Btw, how OP French is? Or German?Remember how OP Altaic was?
Let's not.
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Are we discussing here cultures historically accurate or balance gameplay-wise ? Btw, how OP French is? Or German?Remember how OP Altaic was?
Let's not.
There should not be Celtic group, multiple times I've heard that Celtic wasn't even concept before 19th century and that instead it should be Gaelic group that includes Irish and Scottish, while Welsh, Cornish and Breton should be in Brythonic group.
Manx, Irish and Scottish are all part of the same language group.
Never could really understand the current situation of having Scottish and English culture merged in the British group, while keeping Welsh culture seperated into a "Celtic" group along with Irish and Breton. It seems to really only be there to encourage England/Britain to remain stable.
Bosnian culture formed much to the end of the EU4 timeframe. It didn't have a different religion from 1444. Even today it isn't that much different...I think, with it's seperate church, Bosnia formed enough national identity to be represented. A "culture" isn't only a "language", they lived their lives more different than Serbs or Croats and thats what matters, isn't it? Even now, we could group all the Balkan Languages as Serbo-Croatian since they are super mutually intelligible. Thus I see no problem having Bosnian as a culture. Since language =/= culture, Hungarian and Romanian in the same culture group could make just enough sense.
Also for what you could add;
Hellenic:
Cappadocian could be added in Konya or Kayseri. (or both if you want to give Karaman some hard time)
Pontic culture can be seperate since it's a seperate langauge even now. In the provinces of Sinope, Canik, Trebizond and Kaffa.
I'm highly unsure about this but Calabria might be Greek? Did they form a majority in Calabria in 1444?
Arvanitet culture in Athens (or Albanian if you want). They formed the majority in Athens until they adopted Greek for national unity in the new kingdom of Greece.
Caucasian:
Ganja and Melikates could be a new culture, Caucasian Albanian (or Udi as we call them now). Last survivor majorities until they become Azerbaijani.
Abkhazia, because of it's role in Georgia's historical unification, could be justified as Abkhazian probably. One province culture but Abkhazians aren't even in the same language group with Georgians, I think they deserve their own culture.
Finno-Ugric:
There is a thread in suggestions about Livland and Dorpat being Estonian. You could add this aswell.
Finland please become Finnish ,_,
Halogaland should be Sami.
Baltic:
Why no Old Prussian? Maybe Memel and Ostpreussen could be justified as "not yet germanized prussians"
West Slavic:
Kashubian should be in provinces of Hinterpommern, Neumark and maybe, a big maybe, in Stettin. Someone from Poland could help more on this.
Scandinavian:
Shetlands and Orkney should be Norn culture.
Faroarna should be Faroese (if you hate OPM cultures, just make it Norn)
Celtic:
Manx culture STRONK! (if they ever add Mann island of course)
Scottish being a British culture really bugs me. I would be happier if we just carried all Scotsmen to the Gaelic party, but that wouldn't be realistic. Seperating it into Scots and Scottish, Scots being a British culture, would be better.
Carpathian:
How about adding Transilvanian or making Transilvania Romanian? Also you would need to put a Székely (or Hungarian) province just in Wallachia-Transilvania border in south-east.
Lowlands Culture Group?:
I have been playing Extended Vanilla Experience mod for a while now and it has this culture group. It consists of Waloon, Dutch and Flemish but your new Frisian would also fit perfectly fine.
And a wild suggestion:
Langue'doc group with Occitan and Catalan in it! Arpitan is seen seperate from both Oil and Occitan languages but for the sake of French culture group, Arpitan should stay in I guess.
I'm not an expert in this topic ofc so feel free to correct my suggestions.
West Slavic:
Kashubian should be in provinces of Hinterpommern, Neumark and maybe, a big maybe, in Stettin. Someone from Poland could help more on this.
Few comments regarding Ugric and Baltic:
Dorpat should be definitely Estonian.
Livland is sort of borderline case, my personal guess would be making it Estonian but its not clear cut case, you can compare how that province would be divided by modern Estonia-Latvia border.
Maybe there should be also some Old-Prussian presence in East-Prussia, although its pretty hard to say as I don't think there is much clear information about their presence 1444 compared to Germans and germanized locals in region. Maybe someone else can comment on that.
Baltic:
Why no Old Prussian? Maybe Memel and Ostpreussen could be justified as "not yet germanized prussians
There's still enough Old Prussian at the start date to justify it being a separate culture in the Baltic group with a few of the Teuton provinces being Old Prussian.
Yeah, us Albanians don't fit with either Hellenic or South Slavic culture groups, but in the spirit of the EU4 game mechanics, it's more South Slavic.
Well, yes. Albanians are in south slavic group just for balance. Playing Albania is impossible enough this way.
There should not be Celtic group, multiple times I've heard that Celtic wasn't even concept before 19th century and that instead it should be Gaelic group that includes Irish and Scottish, while Welsh, Cornish and Breton should be in Brythonic group.
Celtic:
Manx culture STRONK! (if they ever add Mann island of course)
Scottish being a British culture really bugs me. I would be happier if we just carried all Scotsmen to the Gaelic party, but that wouldn't be realistic. Seperating it into Scots and Scottish, Scots being a British culture, would be better.
The Celtic group is an anachronism. Gaelic and Brythonic are pretty strongly different and the sense of a Celtic cultural bond was something that didn't come around until much later. Welsh, Breton, and Cornish should be one Brythonic group and Irish, Manx (if the Isle of Man is introduced as a province), and Highland Scots as a new a culture should be one Gaelic group. Scotland should be split between Highland and Lowland Scots cultures, one in the Gaelic group, one in the Anglo-Saxon group with English.
Pontic should be it's own culture due to the differences that emerged in the aftermath of separation from mainland Greece and I'm pretty sure Albanian belongs in the South Slavic group from a cultural standpoint.
Hellenic:
Cappadocian could be added in Konya or Kayseri. (or both if you want to give Karaman some hard time)
Pontic culture can be seperate since it's a seperate langauge even now. In the provinces of Sinope, Canik, Trebizond and Kaffa.
I'm highly unsure about this but Calabria might be Greek? Did they form a majority in Calabria in 1444?
Arvanitet culture in Athens (or Albanian if you want). They formed the majority in Athens until they adopted Greek for national unity in the new kingdom of Greece.
Where the heck is Uyghur? And why is Kyrgyz and Khazak with the Tartars? If anything these two need to be in the Altaic/Mongol group with Uzbek, Mongol, Oirat, Korchin, and Khalka. And again, where is Uyghur?
Hungarians and Romanians in same culture group? I think that is not accurate.
Hungarian and Romanian together? What?
Carpathian:
How about adding Transilvanian or making Transilvania Romanian? Also you would need to put a Székely (or Hungarian) province just in Wallachia-Transilvania border in south-east.
While Gutnish has a strong argument for the time period (as it's a culture as old as Swedish), Icelandic was still not clearly separate from Norwegian. I've gone on about this in previous threads, but I'll do it again: while Norwegian and Icelandic had been growing distinct for a long time, having a common crown, cultural background, and language kept them too similar to reasonably split in EU4 terms.
Now, I'm not saying Norwegian is older than Icelandic. At the EU4 start date, Norwegian was Icelandic. In EU4 terms, Norway was gradually culture-converted to Danish, with the southeast (Akershus, Eidsiva, Agder) becoming Danish, and the rest of Norway becoming a sort of Dano-Norwegian melting pot, with Iceland retaining its old culture since it was hard for the Danes to administer. In 1444, Norway still spoke Old Norse, which is much more closely related to modern Icelandic than both middle Danish and modern Danish and Norwegian. They still had their quasi-democratic customs and no centralised power. In short, they were still very much Norsemen, and the Norwegians as they exist today (formed by a 400-year period of Danish suzerainty causing the nobility to adopt Danish customs) did not exist.
The start of the erosion of Old West Norse culture can be traced back to the Black Death. Yes, that was significantly before 1444, but it was a slow process. While very few literate people were left in Norway after the plague, the ones that did wrote Old Norse, not Middle Danish (read: Norwegian-to-be), albeit with poor grasp of grammar (note that Old Norse and Icelandic had cases, while modern Scandinavian languages do not).
'But they referred to themselves as Icelanders!' is not a strong counter-argument; by the same token, Scania should be Scanian, Jutland should be Jutlander, and every goddamn province in Norway should have its own culture in 1444.
Scandinavian:
Shetlands and Orkney should be Norn culture.
Faroarna should be Faroese (if you hate OPM cultures, just make it Norn)
West Slavic:
Kashubian should be in provinces of Hinterpommern, Neumark and maybe, a big maybe, in Stettin. Someone from Poland could help more on this.
Stettin - should stay Germanic. The Kashubian language there was already moribund by early 15th century.
Hinterpommern (Stolp) - a big yes. For most of the period Kashubian was the predominant language there, including burgers, nobility and administration. Slavic oaths were used in courts and official matters both in towns and among nobles. Only late in the period the region experienced a slow language shift into Low German, a process by no means finished by 20th century. The following map shows the most viable data on the language shift - the year in which church services in each town was shifted from Kashubian into German. This means that by that time, people were bilingual with German taking the role of the predominant language about a generation later.
Neumark - tentavilely it can be Kashubian, although it can stay Saxon as well. The nobility, even of clearly German descent, used Slavic names (Dobrogost, Teslaw etc) into mid 16th century, which likely marked the language shift of the ruling class.
Danzig/Pomerelia - it should be Kashubian, the only place in which Kashubian stayed a viable and predominant language thoughout the entire period. German was largely confined t towns, while most of the population, including the nobility, spoke Slavic.
French - Better than "Cosmopolitaine" for sure
Picard, Norman and Burgundian should probably be split off French, as Normandy retained a relatively strong degree of autonomy from the French crown and had its own Parlement at Rouen, ditto for Burgundy which had a separate Parlement at Dijon, and ditto for Artois at Arras. Occitan should probably be a fairly strongly fragmented culture; it was strongly regionalized. Splitting it into Gascon, Languedocien, Provencal, and North Occitan retains the broad political and cultural divisions of southern France in the era.
Caucasian:
Ganja and Melikates could be a new culture, Caucasian Albanian (or Udi as we call them now). Last survivor majorities until they become Azerbaijani.
Abkhazia, because of it's role in Georgia's historical unification, could be justified as Abkhazian probably. One province culture but Abkhazians aren't even in the same language group with Georgians, I think they deserve their own culture.
Lowlands Culture Group?:
I have been playing Extended Vanilla Experience mod for a while now and it has this culture group. It consists of Waloon, Dutch and Flemish but your new Frisian would also fit perfectly fine.
For gameplay reasons, Dutch and Frisian should be split off into their own culture group to encourage them to rebel from Austria/other German states that conquer them.
If you're fusing Bavarian and Austrian (which I agree with), then you probably shouldn't separate Pommeranian and Markish, the two were similar enough and shared a cultural and political history long enough in the era that they make as much sense as one group as Bavarian and Austrian do.
I'm not sure about this. It seems like they would be converted away pretty quickly and easily away (especially under Austria). I'll try out the Extended Vanilla Experience mod.
Not exactly.
Additionally a new Mazur culture should be added comprising entire Masovia and southern Prussia (roughly corresponding to Osterode and Ortelsburg in the new map from the April 22nd teaser). Masovia was an entirely separate culture (called Mazur) with language related but unintelligible with Polish, since Polish is a mix of Great Polish, Little Polish and Silesian dialects. Only after the incorporation of Masovia into Poland, the slow assimilation into mainstream Polish began. This assimilation left out Mazurs living in East Prussia who became Protestant and formed the Mazur ethnic group which disappeared only after the post-1945 mass population transfers.
Mazurs formed majority in south East Prussia even in early 20th century. Their nobility became assimilated into German culture only in late 18th century.
Because "culture" in EU4 seems to be heavily dependant on language and throughout the whole EU4 period "Scots" a Germanic language that is incredibly similar to English was dominate in Scotland. It makes perfect sense.