Manchu beat up Ming in 1.20

[addvaluejack]

It feels very different from 1.19. There are three majors changes:

1. Manchu will never be short of manpower during early games. Because the major part of Manchu's army are banners, and banners are some kind of cheaper but stronger mercenaries. I finished the war with almost 30,000 manpower.

2. "War for Mandate of Heaven" is not a decent Casus belli for Manchu, because the war score comes from occupation.

3. Ming is stronger, because its army's cavalry ratio has inceased a lot. (Number is not a problem.)

P.S. We can not vassalize Korchin in one war.

 

[enderro]

When it comes to Ming, I found out that having them as an overlord is very advantageous. They do not interfere and stomp non-tributaries regularly. I have abother problem though. How do you handle economy as Manchu? I am able to conquer other hordes pretty easily, but I always have problems with getting the income. I am razing most of the provinces to keep up with tech. I am also increasing the autonomy to get rid of the rebels. Should I wait for them to rebel and then try to crush them? Thanks for help.

 

[Halo]

When it comes to Ming, I found out that having them as an overlord is very advantageous. They do not interfere and stomp non-tributaries regularly. I have abother problem though. How do you handle economy as Manchu? I am able to conquer other hordes pretty easily, but I always have problems with getting the income. I am razing most of the provinces to keep up with tech. I am also increasing the autonomy to get rid of the rebels. Should I wait for them to rebel and then try to crush them? Thanks for help.

I am playing as Jianzhou -> Manchu right now and I am neck deep in debt running oversea colonies and having to conquer crappy lands that don't give much return but I think this is typical playing as any horde nation. Just keep being Ming's tributary because they will squash rebel stacks for you, and also won't mind if you beat up other tributaries, beside they will just demand like 10-15 monarch point a year which is nothing because you are drowning in monarch points from all the razing. I snaked my way to border a Indian nation and should be able to rebound my economy up once I start eating into the delicious and rich Indian lands.

My plan is to completely surround Ming and isolate Ming while eating up all their tributary states so that I am their only tributary. Then when I grow sufficiently strong enough I will cancel my tribute and Ming will get their unguarded normadic tribe status disaster or whatever and I will claim the throne for myself.

 

[addvaluejack]

When it comes to Ming, I found out that having them as an overlord is very advantageous. They do not interfere and stomp non-tributaries regularly. I have abother problem though. How do you handle economy as Manchu? I am able to conquer other hordes pretty easily, but I always have problems with getting the income. I am razing most of the provinces to keep up with tech. I am also increasing the autonomy to get rid of the rebels. Should I wait for them to rebel and then try to crush them? Thanks for help.

I do not have good solution for economy, so I strike as early as possible. Besides, steppe nomads's troop will lose their pip advantage when tech advance.

 

[ShoGuL]

I managed to form Qing in 1513 in my game, but that was definitely a mistake. I was trying to avoid more debt, but I shouldn't have peaced out for just Beijing; Manchu has much stronger military than Qing with the same lands and the lost cavalry advantage means you can no longer beat Ming 2:1 or better on open fields, which means their 100k mercenaries overran me despite much better manpower situation. I just couldn't push them back.

RIP Qing, better luck next time

 

[TornadoWatch]

You can beat Ming and start conquering in China way before that. Just gotta use a trick or two.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

You can beat Ming and start conquering in China way before that. Just gotta use a trick or two.

Enlighten us.

 

[TornadoWatch]

I really, really want to, but I don't think the forums allow me to link to external sources/guides. I wrote one. A big one.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

There is no rule against something like this, as long as you don't post it in the intention of advertising.

 

[TornadoWatch]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=900257608

Alright, here's what I've got so far.

 

[Tweakee]

When it comes to Ming, I found out that having them as an overlord is very advantageous. They do not interfere and stomp non-tributaries regularly. I have abother problem though. How do you handle economy as Manchu? I am able to conquer other hordes pretty easily, but I always have problems with getting the income. I am razing most of the provinces to keep up with tech. I am also increasing the autonomy to get rid of the rebels. Should I wait for them to rebel and then try to crush them? Thanks for help.

Never raise autonomy in gold provinces or centers of trade. Otherwise, you should probably only raise it if you're pretty sure it will completely block a rebellion. If it won't drop unrest to 0, you're losing money/manpower for nothing.

Taking Humanist early can often allow you to leave autonomy alone -and- not have rebels.

For income, grab gold provinces early, and move your capital to one. Buryatia is a prime candidate - it's not mountainous, so with the capital bonus, it's quite cheap to develop. You can develop gold production and simultaneously embrace your institutions, catching up on tech and gaining a massive income at the same time. That should give you plenty of money to fund your empire until you hit Russia and India, at which point their tax/trade can take over.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=900257608

Alright, here's what I've got so far.

Sounds exactly as the strategy I wanted to do yesterday. To bad, Ming conquered half of Haixi and Korchin in the first 5 years, blocking me for a long time, until the point it were too powerful.

Thanks for sharing. So, it can work. That's all, I need to know.

 

[Merritt]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=900257608

Alright, here's what I've got so far.

Just tried your strategy yesterday, I think the most pivitol bit of information is to not take the Mandate right away, nor form Qing right away. That was the mistake that was constantly ruining my runs - but is it just me, or does anyone also think it shouldn't be this way? Ming is just absolutely okay after you take the mandate away and your truce takes ten years off of the lost mandate modifier. And you'll lose your mandate faster than you can spit because Ming will not lose its tributaries, making it impossible for you to take his tributaries. He's able to fend off all rebels too and once the truce is over, he will have recovered a lot more than you. And due to the high development of the provinces, you can take veeeerry little at once due to overextension being at 100 after taking 4-5. I... Just have the feeling the mingsplosion should still be a thing, or a mechanic that makes tributaries band together after the loss of mandate or something that allows you to take down ming swiftly.
But thank you very much for the guide. Now burning Ming _before_ I form Qing, which ... yeah feels totally off, I mean I won't need the unify China CB anymore once I'm done with them.

 

[makaramus]

take some loan until you trigger event
when event trigger peace out even if you winning or losing
when mandatte reach 0 declare war on them and take all money + war rep you can to repay your loan(if their trade node still worth someting you can take trade power too)
after truce is over declare another war and finish them

after tech 10 you can form qing... they usually lost enought tributary to keep their mandate negative without disaster from now so only advantage they gain from you being monarchy is %15 morale they gain wich is worth to get better military and goverment(also I imagine you allready taken forts that not on mountains so... sieging mountains as horde is terrible idea)

This was until I notice you can form manchu qing as ming by culture switch XD

 

[lolada]

I went for 200 grain provinces and all other manchu achievements i could. Some tips:

- Don't vasalize - annex and raze everything - i went through Hordes to kill Muscovy, entered India through. Delhi and slowly ate Ming in many wars. At one point i fully annexed Korea - white peaced Ming who defended them
- Ming is "easy" as easy it can be - first 2-3 wars they can hold a bit but they are pushover later - take their forts in peace deal and everything becomes easier. Hordes are good at killing and looting, not at sieging mountain forts
- If you have >300 development (just eat neighboring hordes) Ming will enter into disaster and they are done (-15% morale, and when their Mandate <50 they suffer 50% more dmg in battle)
- I think i had first Ming war in 145x year.. it doesn't really take long if you have a good start

- Mandate of Heaven CB is great, its 50% reduced warscore - you can take lots of land - its easier if their capital has no fort - so dont annex capital without fort - let them have it
- You can always take 120-130 OE of land - raze below 100% and core

- I think i used some mercenaries early on - but mid to late game i had 100+k manpower locked always. Look at Florryworry money video 2nd part youtube at the end - for Hordes you should Debase currency - you can earn lots of money - no need for loans at all - besides early few loans, i later always used debase currency and paid off my corruption. I always was a lot ahead of tech so that was helping with corruption all the time

- Got 100+ banners with some culture conversion, not that much conversions - i was up to tech and developed Manchu land decently, didn't know where to spend points

- Humanist is godly group for them. I didn't even take Administrative and didnt know where to spend admin points sometimes. Very few revolts happend.
- I even went 3 into Exploration, got Nahuatl tengri achievement and discarded the group for Diplomatic

- I went Aristocracy and Diplomatic. Tbh i was said in 1600s i didn't go for Espionage - you don't really need diplomatic besides warscore and some AE reduction. If you kill countries completely you don't even need AE reduction. Espionage+Aristocracy boosts banners (cav combat ability) even more - they just melt everything. My heavy cavalry armies wiped 40k russian, delhi, bengal and ming stacks no problem. I saw +1 yearly horde unity in diplomatic - its a waste i never needed it. Actually, lower horde lets you just up it with military points later and get 2 easy Absolutism points. You even get some yearly horde unity from trading bonus in some goods like chinaware or smth.

- In 1600s after i had all 5 active policies and spare points.. manchu has stupid tech reductions
- AE was never issue, had short coalition in India, and for example in 1670s i just full annexed Lithuania in one sweap and in subsequent war most of Poland. HRE members entered coalition, just to leave it few months later. Hordes have huge force limit and manpower.

- Picked up Trade later, to funnel all the trade around, had around 100+ ducats trade income - didn't want to mvoe capital in europe and use trade companies (thats viable too)

- Don't form Qing until late game - i don't see the point, you lose lots of benefits of being horde. It feels like you stopped in time - maybe once you have Imperialism.

- Also tribe interactions, Extra manpower is great and priority use - early mid game. Later on you will have max manpower anyway. You rarely need cavalry units from tribes - just use Banners a lot.

Stopped at 1680s i think.. got all achievements and there was nothing much to do besides killing Ottos and HRE. I could see to later post some screenshots if anyone want, i took a few interesting ones.

 

[allfath3r]

I managed to form Qing in 1513 in my game, but that was definitely a mistake. I was trying to avoid more debt, but I shouldn't have peaced out for just Beijing; Manchu has much stronger military than Qing with the same lands and the lost cavalry advantage means you can no longer beat Ming 2:1 or better on open fields, which means their 100k mercenaries overran me despite much better manpower situation. I just couldn't push them back.

RIP Qing, better luck next time

Depending on your situation, peacing out for Beijing is a perfectly viable option at times. Beijing alone allows you to rake in 10+ ducats from trade if not way more, and that can more or less fix any economy problems you might have. If you are able to become Ming's tributary following the Qing formation, you can continue to safely expand until you're able to match them on the field. I'm not saying it's easy or even the optimal strategy, but it's definitely workable.

 

[Cagliostro]

been playing Manchu myself, and I am *shockingly* poor. Don't know if it has always been this way or it's a side effect of patches, but I can't come close to maintaining force limit. Sort of seems to me that the only possible horde play in that area is WC play - constantly conquering and razing. Economy vastly outweighs all of my other concerns. Ludicrous to think that an AI Manchu could succeed at beating Ming in this version, even a badly-hobbled Ming.

 

[schondetta]

I am playing as Jianzhou -> Manchu right now and I am neck deep in debt running oversea colonies and having to conquer crappy lands that don't give much return but I think this is typical playing as any horde nation. Just keep being Ming's tributary because they will squash rebel stacks for you, and also won't mind if you beat up other tributaries, beside they will just demand like 10-15 monarch point a year which is nothing because you are drowning in monarch points from all the razing. I snaked my way to border a Indian nation and should be able to rebound my economy up once I start eating into the delicious and rich Indian lands.

My plan is to completely surround Ming and isolate Ming while eating up all their tributary states so that I am their only tributary. Then when I grow sufficiently strong enough I will cancel my tribute and Ming will get their unguarded normadic tribe status disaster or whatever and I will claim the throne for myself.

That's pretty much how paradox wanted that to play out.

Establish tributary. Expand around ming. Border disaster. Mandate CB . rofl stomp. Repeat. I used the cb until Ming was fully annexed and never took the mandate because it doesn't make sense as a horde to do so. Unless you want to form Qing and settle down like in real life. Overall pretty good flavor


Also echoing taking humanism first. Its godly powerful when blobbing. Rcc can wait until two or three

 

[allfath3r]

been playing Manchu myself, and I am *shockingly* poor. Don't know if it has always been this way or it's a side effect of patches, but I can't come close to maintaining force limit. Sort of seems to me that the only possible horde play in that area is WC play - constantly conquering and razing. Economy vastly outweighs all of my other concerns. Ludicrous to think that an AI Manchu could succeed at beating Ming in this version, even a badly-hobbled Ming.

It's by design, as schondetta mentioned. Over the last few patches, hordes have been given a bit of a rework; it's harder than ever to maintain a stable economy as a horde as a direct result of high autonomy, frequent bad events, and having to now pay for unit reinforcement. This means that you're going to have to rely more on expansion rather than centralization, as Paradox always intended from the start. Keep in mind that Hordes are such a challenge to play in this respect because in our own world, Hordes struggled with these exact same issues. And for the most part, it directly resulted in them becoming weak or stagnant, allowing for other regional powers to overtake them.

So basically, you need to expand around Ming whilst paying them tribute, which will allow you to declare on their neighbors without risk of them intervening. Once you're able to really throw your weight around, you can break tribute and just... wait. This will cause the Emperor of China exclusive disaster to start ticking up, which eventually results in their mandate tanking and opening them up to the attacks you may have been able to pull off in previous patches at much earlier dates.

Once the disaster fires, you can assemble your banners and blot out the sun with your horses.

 

[addvaluejack]

It's by design, as schondetta mentioned. Over the last few patches, hordes have been given a bit of a rework; it's harder than ever to maintain a stable economy as a horde as a direct result of high autonomy, frequent bad events, and having to now pay for unit reinforcement. This means that you're going to have to rely more on expansion rather than centralization, as Paradox always intended from the start. Keep in mind that Hordes are such a challenge to play in this respect because in our own world, Hordes struggled with these exact same issues. And for the most part, it directly resulted in them becoming weak or stagnant, allowing for other regional powers to overtake them.

So basically, you need to expand around Ming whilst paying them tribute, which will allow you to declare on their neighbors without risk of them intervening. Once you're able to really throw your weight around, you can break tribute and just... wait. This will cause the Emperor of China exclusive disaster to start ticking up, which eventually results in their mandate tanking and opening them up to the attacks you may have been able to pull off in previous patches at much earlier dates.

Once the disaster fires, you can assemble your banners and blot out the sun with your horses.

Waiting is something horrible for tribes, and I believe it takes more than 8 years to trigger the disaster.

Personally, I prefer to declare war on Ming with "Tribal Feud" casus belli to accelerate the disaster. The best timing is between MIL tech 6 and MIL tech 7. I can earn war score by using cavalry in the open field. And when the war is near its end, artillery can help me tear down Beijin's wall.