Mamluks collapse caused by the spice war with Portugal

[lucaluca]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese–Mamluk_naval_war

I did not know that the Mamluk empire was essentially destroyed by the takeover of the spice trade by Portugal, and this led to the Ottoman conquest. What is the main source of revenue for the Mamlukes in the game? I believe it should be trade but they should not be able to field powerful navies as they were a land based power.

 

[gaius valerius]

The Mamluks made a serious naval effort in the Red Sea. Their empire was long dead before the Ottomans came though. Historians speak of an 'Indian Summer'. Essentially the Mamluk empire was on the verge of collapse after the last showdown with the Illkhanids and suffered a strain of internal coup's. However no external enemy at that time came to claim the prize as the Mongol offshoots were disintegrating themselves. As such the 14th century crisis past and the Mamluk Sultanate passed on into the 15thj century and knew a period of relative isolated splendour so to say, having no real outside threats it was allowed to recapture its breath and continued to exist. The scars of the past weren't healed nor were the problems of the past fixed. The Mamluk Sultanate was the strongest by the virtue of having no other opponent to challenge it. It stood still. In history standing still however is equal to advancing backwards. Their rude awakening came in the double assault of the Portuguese and the Ottomans, rudely breaking the spell that had lasted for over a century.

 

[ahuitzotl]

The Mamluks and Ottomans didn't so much lose the war against Portugal, as they stopped to fight each other.

 

[Moridin997]

The Mamluks and Ottomans didn't so much lose the war against Portugal, as they stopped to fight each other.

They didn't lose against Portugal per se; Portugal undermined Mamluk trade in such way that the Mamluks were forced to beg Ottoman assistance to defend the Indian Ocean and, in particular, Mecca and Medina, which destroyed their prestige and made the Ottomans reputation in the Arab world rise to new heights. Thus, when Selim I humbled the Persians in Tchaldiran, the Mamluks were left without money, prestige or allies. The Ottomans took advantage of it and went in for the kill.

Therefore, the Mamluks didn't lose against Portugal; they lost against the Ottoman, leaving Portugal as "the last man standing"

As for the Ottoman-Portuguese Conflicts, we can call it a draw, with the Ottomans eventually getting bored and Portugal having to worry about other competitors.

 

[gaius valerius]

The Ottoman Empire suffered the same issue the Spanish Empire did at its height: enemies on all sides, commitments on all sides, wars against the Empire, wars against Persia, wars against the Spanish, wars against the Russians, naval operations in the Mediterranean, naval operations in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, etc etc etc. The Spanish suffered the same issues with their European, Mediterranean and Atlantic commitments. Essentially these empires had to strike on multiple fronts and thus could - apart from a few exceptions - never fully commit to one imperial issue.

 

[smellymummy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese–Mamluk_naval_war

I did not know that the Mamluk empire was essentially destroyed by the takeover of the spice trade by Portugal, and this led to the Ottoman conquest. What is the main source of revenue for the Mamlukes in the game? I believe it should be trade but they should not be able to field powerful navies as they were a land based power.

you would imagine their main trade source would be from gulf of aden node. there is an event if portugal controls a province in that node that gives portugal more trade power...

 

[Moridin997]

you would imagine their main trade source would be from gulf of aden node. there is an event if portugal controls a province in that node that gives portugal more trade power...

Unfortunately, the Portugal AI doesn't really commit to the Spice Trade, therefore they never get rich the way they are supposed to early on. This also means that the Mamluks don't get weak the way they should, forcing the Ottoman AI to expend more resources in the conquest of Egypt than it did, historically.

I find this a serious game issue. Afterall, the stated purpose of Trade Routes was to allow (I'd even say encourage) the formation (and, in cases like Mamluks and Venice, downfall) of historical Trade Empires.

 

[Namm]

Unfortunately, the Portugal AI doesn't really commit to the Spice Trade, therefore they never get rich the way they are supposed to early on. This also means that the Mamluks don't get weak the way they should, forcing the Ottoman AI to expend more resources in the conquest of Egypt than it did, historically.

I find this a serious game issue. Afterall, the stated purpose of Trade Routes was to allow (I'd even say encourage) the formation (and, in cases like Mamluks and Venice, downfall) of historical Trade Empires.

Agreed.

 

[lucaluca]

Unfortunately, the Portugal AI doesn't really commit to the Spice Trade, therefore they never get rich the way they are supposed to early on. This also means that the Mamluks don't get weak the way they should, forcing the Ottoman AI to expend more resources in the conquest of Egypt than it did, historically.

I find this a serious game issue. Afterall, the stated purpose of Trade Routes was to allow (I'd even say encourage) the formation (and, in cases like Mamluks and Venice, downfall) of historical Trade Empires.

I see Portugal in India most of the time, and then spice islands, etc... Not so fast as in history that's for sure

 

[ahuitzotl]

The spice trade was a big deal, but it's also important to note that Mamluks were not a pushover even at the end and they fell so easily because they were, for the most part, Turks (the Mamluk state was even called Turkey), so a good chunk of the nobility easily flipped after the Mamluk Sultan died in battle. Sultan al-Ghawri had tried to reform and strengthen the Mamluk army, and raised a big army to face the Ottomans at the Battle of Marj Dabiq but he was slain, possibly due to betrayal, triggering a succession dispute which paralyzed Mamluk resistance in Syria while many emirs and even the Caliph simply went over to the Ottoman side. Resistance continued until the fall of Cairo, but the Mamluks survived as Ottoman vassals.

 

[lucaluca]

The spice trade was a big deal, but it's also important to note that Mamluks were not a pushover even at the end and they fell so easily because they were, for the most part, Turks (the Mamluk state was even called Turkey), so a good chunk of the nobility easily flipped after the Mamluk Sultan died in battle. Sultan al-Ghawri had tried to reform and strengthen the Mamluk army, and raised a big army to face the Ottomans at the Battle of Marj Dabiq but he was slain, possibly due to betrayal, triggering a succession dispute which paralyzed Mamluk resistance in Syria while many emirs and even the Caliph simply went over to the Ottoman side. Resistance continued until the fall of Cairo, but the Mamluks survived as Ottoman vassals.

Yes but the spice trade war triggered their downfall due to soaring prices and their inability to protect the holy cities. I believe in game terms, as it was posted somewhere else, they had a massive loss of prestige and legitimacy.

 

[conanbarbairan]

"Mamluks collapse caused by the spice war with Portugal."

One of the reasons - maybe. But not the only reason, and definitely not the most important reason. Mamluk ruling elite was corrupted, their army obsolete, and vast majority of population didnt care if their current masters/conquerors are replaced by another conquerors (especially because the Ottomans were sunnis); I don't believe that Mamluks would survive even without Portuguese in India.. Selim (or Suleiman!) armies vs Mamluks = OE wins.

"I believe in game terms, as it was posted somewhere else, they had a massive loss of prestige and legitimacy." That i agree, an event triggering inflation, prestige and legitimacy loss would be fine.

 

[gaius valerius]

The spice trade was a big deal, but it's also important to note that Mamluks were not a pushover even at the end and they fell so easily because they were, for the most part, Turks (the Mamluk state was even called Turkey), so a good chunk of the nobility easily flipped after the Mamluk Sultan died in battle. Sultan al-Ghawri had tried to reform and strengthen the Mamluk army, and raised a big army to face the Ottomans at the Battle of Marj Dabiq but he was slain, possibly due to betrayal, triggering a succession dispute which paralyzed Mamluk resistance in Syria while many emirs and even the Caliph simply went over to the Ottoman side. Resistance continued until the fall of Cairo, but the Mamluks survived as Ottoman vassals.

Perhaps an important remark to make indeed, the Mamluk state was left essentially intact, its military elite preserved and only suffering the supervision of an Ottoman governor which wasn't particularly oppressive to them. Militarily however they were obsolete, needing to call in Ottoman support to combat the Portuguese in the Aden.