Linux and or windows dedicated subforums

[ProtoformX]

Hey all,
This has been at the back of my mind for a while now.
Noticing how fragmented the forum system is.

Currently the forum is set up something like:

PDXforum / stellaris/ LInux support
PDXforum / hoi4/ LInux support
PDXforum / eu4/ LInux support


Due to the nature of linux OS- I think we need a dedicated centralised forum for problem identification and solving.

I wanted to illustrate some key differences between windows and linux as a whole- but it seems I really have been out of the windows loop for too long.
So, an illustration of GNU/Linux, and why have a centralised subforum for all games.

According to the nature of GNU/Linux, all distros more or less use the same libraries and dependencies.
Each different distro simply changes the infrastructure/packaging style/technique of how packages/programs interact with each other.

Also, GNU/Linux programs are not self contained in the same way as windows programs.

In windows, you have an installer for a program- unpacks the program with most of what it needs.
The things not included in a program installer are things not directly relevant to 'a program'
Such as graphics/usb/mouse/keyboard. These are things all windows programs share.
To some degree, program installers ship with essential windows OS level files too.
It's just that windows doesn't need them to run windows.
So if a game developer wants the game to use them, the game installer needs to come with them.
Sometimes this works out for other games which also want to use those essential windows OS level files.

When a Linux program is installed- they tell the distro what files they need (dependencies); and the OS grabs them.
Then, the installation location of this program only contains files exclusively specifically relevant to that program.
Everything else the program uses is stored in shared locations where every other program and driver has access to it.

Meaning, in windows- many individual software will come with 'their own version of files'.
if you have 12 different programs- then you can have 12 different redundant copies of the same libraries.
GNU/Linux then- 1 dependency library can be shared between 12 programs.


How is this relevant?

Well, many problems with gaming on GNU/Linux, and many problems with PDS gaming can be addressed by
'simply installing library/dependency x'. That's good right? Right.

Except currently EU4 players will use EU4 sub forum and search/post bugs or tech support there;
When maybe the solution has already been identified and solved in another game subforum.


Example?

This is especially the case with I:R soon after release. There were libraries missing that shipped in the windows version, so it was easily fixed. But it didn't happen in GNU/Linux. It had to be identified, figured out, and then each person told their distro to install those library files.


How will what I want look different?

I would have it look closer to

PDXforum / windows support / bug reporting / stellaris
PDXforum / windows support / tech support /

PDXforum / linux / bug reporting / stellaris
PDXforum / linux / tech support / stellaris

Game discussion and suggestions
PDXforum / stellaris
PDXforum / hoi4

 

[AndrewT]

Currently the forum is set up something like:

PDXforum / stellaris/ LInux support
PDXforum / hoi4/ LInux support
PDXforum / eu4/ LInux support

I'm not sure where you are seeing this, but there are no dedicated OS support forums like that. They are all OS-agnostic.

I would have it look closer to

PDXforum / windows support / bug reporting / stellaris
PDXforum / windows support / tech support /

PDXforum / linux / bug reporting / stellaris
PDXforum / linux / tech support / stellaris

Game discussion and suggestions
PDXforum / stellaris
PDXforum / hoi4

I assume you'd say we need Mac forums like that too.

It seems to me this would introduce the same problem in a different way - what about bug reports that are not OS-limited? You'd then end up with the same bug report in up to three separate forums.

While such decisions are made way over my head, I rather doubt the forum Admins will want to further fragment our support efforts in the way you suggest.

My experience is people do searches in google which covers all the game forums.

 

[ProtoformX]

That's probably true. But I think you've got the situation backwards.
The issue is not whether bugs are game/os derived, but whether or not the os derived bugs are in 1 place or not.
Which is what I'd like to see.

All windows based problems in 1 place, all linux in one place, and all mac in one place.
The people who play game X but not Y will still find themselves in forum X not Y. But they'll be more inclined to find problems relevant to themselves.

Based on some casual searching, it does appear people are posting multiple duplicates of 'problem x'. Even within the same game subforum.
So 'google search before posting of problem' doesn't seem to be universally true.

 

[ProtoformX]

I'm not sure where you are seeing this, but there are no dedicated OS support forums like that. They are all OS-agnostic.

If everything is not how I've described it, then my proposed changes would be meaningless.

The problems are not all OS agnostic- as illustrated by the problems in I;R about libraries/sound/launcher problems.
They were specific to non-windows OS, as windows is the only one that has game installers contain everything they need to run the game.

But the directory examples were a heirarchy/directory representation of the PDS forums.
Within the PDS forums you have many forums- games, general, non pds games, off topic, etc.

Then within each game is a discrete 'linux' subfolder. Meaning very clearly there is as many linux subforums as there are games.

However, since some problems are os agnostic, that's a good example of not nesting game forums in OS forums, or vice versa.
Instead having the OS subforums parallel to/at the sme level as game subforums.

 

[AndrewT]

The issue is not whether bugs are game/os derived, but whether or not the os derived bugs are in 1 place or not.

So bugs that are only experienced on Linux would be in your dedicated Linux forum, whereas bugs that are experienced on any OS would be in a separate forum again for that game? In other words the game bug forums would remain as they are, but there would be 3 new forums for Linux-only, Windows-only and Mac-only bugs with every one of the 40 or so games lumped in them together? Is that your suggestion?

Within the PDS forums you have many forums- games, general, non pds games, off topic, etc.

Then within each game is a discrete 'linux' subfolder. Meaning very clearly there is as many linux subforums as there are games.

I don't know where you are seeing that! For CK2 for instance there are:

CRUSADER KINGS II
BUG REPORTS
USER MODIFICATIONS
SUGGESTIONS
TECH SUPPORT
MULTIPLAYER
AFTER ACTION REPORTS

No Linux-specific forums at all.

 

[ProtoformX]

So bugs that are only experienced on Linux would be in your dedicated Linux forum, whereas bugs that are experienced on any OS would be in a separate forum again for that game? In other words the game bug forums would remain as they are, but there would be 3 new forums for Linux-only, Windows-only and Mac-only bugs with every one of the 40 or so games lumped in them together? Is that your suggestion?

The short answer is yes.

I don't pretend to have a long nuanced list of answers and responses to edge cases.
But I think it's a good idea. Particularly since we now have a dedicated team for a single launcher for most/all games.
For example:
under tech support/bugs
OS type
Launcher
Game
Or have launcher in the OS category to reinforce people's thinking it is separate from their game.
In this way, I think it's possible to better organise without increasing fragmentation.

from a dev perspective, maybe it's possible to make the launcher check for dependencies?
To avoid previous unexpected problems of lacking libraries.

The immediate flipside is sorting problems by OS first and launcher/game second requires people to think a bit more about their problem.

I don't know where you are seeing that! For CK2 for instance there are:

No Linux-specific forums at all.

I take your point that my original examples were only examples for reference,
and that what I've listed doesn't exactly represent PDX forums.

I'm at a disadvantage here since I have spent no real effort navigating the new forum.

Frankly though I find it confusing and unintuitive. The inconsistencies in the page code/mechanics interfere with my faculties.
Not too dissimilar from how a dyslexic person has trouble reading technical jargon in uniform text.
(speaking from experience in both cases)

Regards,


p.s.
There has been an acknowledgement of tech debt. Making dodgy things to work now at the expense of ease-of-use later.
So this is me saying here is a way to try and do things better to reduce tech debt in future.

I spend lots of my time.. well life.. dedicated to the process and question of organising knowledge.
So I'm not practiced at arguing or framing my thoughts in simple linear language.

 

[Seli]

This seems to be something that is easier solved by using tags. Which I don't think are implemented on this forum. And of course would also mean more data to manage.

 

[ProtoformX]

This seems to be something that is easier solved by using tags. Which I don't think are implemented on this forum. And of course would also mean more data to manage.

I think tagging would 'be helpful', but I disagree that it's 'the solution'.
Because the whole point is to organise the forums more effectively, not just make it easier to search through.

I do agree having to go tag everything is a technical difficulty I have no idea how to solve- not that I have any experience with forum admin work.

I also expect it would be simpler and quicker to move+merge sub directories from various sources into 1 spot, rather than go through tagging everything relevantly and accurately.


The problem with tagging

But with tagging, what I tend to see is tags are left up to the community- and there are many badly/wrongly tagged 'things'.
This happens mostly because of subjective scales and definitions.

For example steam community thinks the following games are all strategy:
AvP, Quake live, battle for wesnoth, CS:GO, EuIV, dota 2, hoi4, hitman, shadowrun.

Now I've re-tagged most of them. Cs:go goes in FPS; and dota 2 goes under tactical/moba; Pdx games go in grand strategy.
But every time I have my library open, steam reminds me that there are 'games missing' from the categories I've set up.

Less obvious examples, are of people adding tags to things 'because there is some relevance.'
Like for historical game mods tagged 'fix'- the author clearly thinks they're fixing a problem, when 95% of the other mods under 'fixes' are for problems
created by patches or other mods.

Then, other people might find the 'fix' and want to try it anyway- but find it does not involve a level of depth/complexity they expected.

So, the only real clear solution is for everyone to come to synonymous agreement on definitions for tags.

But there are many people who've never heard of either grand strategy games or linux- and think they're just regular strategy games like total annihilation or red alert.
Or think that Linux is just like windows because they're both operating systems installed onto PC hardware with a window system, file explorer and web browser and office.

This turned into a much longer response than I originally pictured.
So in short, I'm personally of the opinion that tags shouldn't be used unless it's impossible to incorrectly use.

p.s.
Windows is to linux, as a ford car is to a ferrari engine.
Windows is the entire operating system, and linux is the kernel (engine) of GNU/Linux.

So not only do the filesystem and code architecture/structure of Windows and GNU/Linux work very differently,
Linux refers to only 'part of the OS'. It's not even a direct comparison.

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

I think tagging would 'be helpful', but I disagree that it's 'the solution'.
Because the whole point is to organise the forums more effectively, not just make it easier to search through.

I see where you are coming from but think about this:

tags are left up to the community

So is where to place a thread in the forum. Granted, mods can move individual threads but in the end it's the user who puts the thread in a specifc section of the forum.
Which leads to:

So in short, I'm personally of the opinion that tags shouldn't be used unless it's impossible to incorrectly use.

So with that reasoning let's just ditch the forum since it's obviously possible to use it incorrectly.

 

[ProtoformX]

I see where you are coming from but think about this:

So is where to place a thread in the forum. Granted, mods can move individual threads but in the end it's the user who puts the thread in a specifc section of the forum.
Which leads to:

Regarding ditching the forum.
I think you've missed the point if you're seriously trying to derive that conclusion from my reasoning.

There's no real way to properly address this succinctly. So I'll stick to just a principle or two.

Tags do not clearly and unambiguously solve any specific problem. Particularly true in this case.

You'll only create more problems later on if you trying to apply a simple solution to a complex problem.

So with that reasoning let's just ditch the forum since it's obviously possible to use it incorrectly.

You've also got bigger problems you probably should address,
If you're comparing a tag system to a forum discussion platform as equal and or similar in both/either degree or complexity.

P.S.
If your post was deliberately silly, with full knowledge of the points I've made. That's fine too.
I don't mean to single you out or react to you personally.

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

I think you've missed the point if you're seriously trying to derive that conclusion from my reasoning.

No, I guess you are missing my point - or we have a general problem with communication to each other.

You want: Subforums for the respective OS so the users can post their OS-related problems (with the games) in the correct OS-subforum.
That's the part where I'm with you. Or let's say: I understand why you would want such a thing.

You do NOT want: A tagging-system with that the users can post their OS-related problems (with the games) and tag it with the correct OS.

In the latter case you argue against the system because such tags would be (most likely) errornous. As a reason for the errors you state that the users won't use them correctly.

[edit]I hope the summary is correct so far - othwerwise my point is... well... pointless [/edit]


And that's where I say: What's the difference between deciding which is the correct tag and which is the correct subforum?
In fact I find it more likely that someone posts a thread in the wrong forum than giving it the wrong tag(s), but that's beside the point.

P.S.
If your post was deliberately silly, with full knowledge of the points I've made. That's fine too.
I don't mean to single you out or react to you personally.

Yes, indeed I was deliberately silly. But only to lead my point. And don't worry, you didn't offend me or similar
And I don't want to offend you, either, in any form. I just think that your argumentation against tags is flawed.

 

[ProtoformX]

[edit]I hope the summary is correct so far - othwerwise my point is... well... pointless [/edit]

And that's where I say: What's the difference between deciding which is the correct tag and which is the correct subforum?
In fact I find it more likely that someone posts a thread in the wrong forum than giving it the wrong tag(s), but that's beside the point.

Yes, indeed I was deliberately silly. But only to lead my point. And don't worry, you didn't offend me or similar
And I don't want to offend you, either, in any form. I just think that your argumentation against tags is flawed.

Hi, long time no see.
I've had a rough few months and today decided to clean up my email folders- stumbling across these posts.

You nailed your summary. Accurate.

The short answer is it's about simple vs complex. I don't know any other way to describe it easily other than say it comes down to definitions vs abstractions.
Simple ideas vs complex ones.

Tags are simple, short, and very easy to interpret more than one way.
The fewer words you use, the more diverse the possible interpretations.

Those who only speak english will have a hard time with something like chinese where a single word can mean many things depending on pronounciation or context.

I can even use an english example "better".

What is better?: Speed? Cost? Reproduceability?

Speed? Raw momentum? Acceleration? Inertia? Power to weight ratio?
"Fast" and "Good" aren't metrics, they're abstract relatives- relevant to only the perciever.
Hence my previous example about strategy.
Some people I know think cs:go is a strategy game, because you have to think about your choices and make plans for the round.

I think us on pdx forums would disagree with cs:go being a strategy game.


Categories and subforums then
Having categories and sub forums clearly articulated, removes ambiguity as much as possible.

You're prescribing exactly what the subforum is for, in the name and description.
Where specific systematic iteration is the only good way to identify problems and solutions.
(getting into the habvit of specifically naming problems, and only changeng 1-2 variabnles at a time.)

Sub forums for linux for example, or linux problems for hoi4- will be located in only 1 place.
So once people get over the learning hurdle- they'll eventually figure out where to look when posting.

Also, my guess is pdx gamers who aren't aware they use windows are in the minority.
If you're using linux or mac, you shouldn't be able to get confused over OS.


I do concede though, from an identification standpoint, it is tricky to workout whether your problem is a game, driver, library, or other missing dependency or config problem. Also having a supported diversity of platforms makes communication trickier.

I do think it's a good start though.
Especially with established steps like 'bypass launcher'- clearly rules out if the launcher is a problem.
Deleting game cache rules out game settings- leaving drivers- etc.
There'll be a small list of things that people can do, which quickly and efficiently narrow down the problem. It also gets everyone- pdx devs included-
into better more oganised mindsets and habits.

My mum tried to tell me that efficiency isn't everything. There's more to life than efficiency.
I agree. The more efficient I am at doing everything- the more free time I have to do fun and meaningful things.