Le 10 décembre 1936, après 22 jours de guerre, la France se rend à l'armée supérieure italienne.
- Thread starter GothiousRex
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
... et alors ? That's not an unexpected result, there are plenty of strategies to kill any major in 1936, and France is so weak with their disjoint government...
This is an english only forum, even for thread titles
I really like playing as France....but France is not prepared to fight a 'major country' that early in the game. (Unless you are a seasoned player)
1936 France ...
1936 France ...
- ...is very short on equipment (not enough guns for each division)
- ...does not have enough military factories
- ...does not have enough Civilian factories
- ...does not have enough oil to train divisions that consume oil (Navy, Airforce, Motorized & Tanks)
- ...is crippled by disjointed government
- capitulation requires a very low threshold
- PP (Political Power) gains are nerfed until you remove disjointed government
- 2
There should be a separate vanity thread to post screenshots of how good people are at beating vanilla AI
- 1
Honestly the starting French army isnt that weak. If you get rid of some of the useless starting divisions, they have like 48 decent infantry divisions that are fully equipped, which is more than most nations, and plenty of light tanks (even if the design is kinda crap). They also have the third highest civ factories in the world and a respectable navy. Also tons of natural resources, other than bizarrely having 0 oil to draw from.
No doubt they have plenty of issues holding them back, but I would disagree, France at the start of the game could totally take on both Italy and Germany (individually)
One sort of annoying thing about France is how dramatic an early random event can be…the one that lets you jump to early mobilization for free can make a huge difference.
- 1
- 1
- 1
There is nothing you posted that is incorrect but...
Did you read my first line completely? Let me refresh....
"...France is not prepared to fight a 'major country' that early in the game. (Unless you are a seasoned player)"
How does France beat Germany or Italy early?
Do any of your strategies fall into the novice category?
Seasoned Player Strats to me would include
- Micro your divisions well
- Naval Invade multiple locations
- Paratroopers
- Change your division makeup (competently such as using one of the Meta designs & widths)
- Exploits (Order 66, daisy chain naval invasions beyond intended 10 limit, other)
- Using well managed supply lines and supply depots
- Defending against superior Airforce
- and the list goes on
- 1
- 1
- 1
- 1
But you dont have to be a seasoned player. At the start of the game France has a stronger military than both Germany and Italy and honestly a decent amount of industry too. In a pure AI vs AI battle one on one theyd more than hold their own.
Of course actually declaring war as France in 1936 is not possible. Point is more that France doesnt start out weak, their real issue is they dont have the level of buildup their aggressive neighbors do and get overwhelmed.
- 1
I get it you like France....I do too. My point that you fail to get is..."Fighting as Early France for a novice player is a shit show."
Somehow each time I express this your retort lacks addressing my point. I did not say mid to late game you should avoid playing France and fighting. I said early France is weak for a novice player.
France can declare war in 1936 vs. Germany.
Yes, the novice player...
Somehow each time I express this your retort lacks addressing my point. I did not say mid to late game you should avoid playing France and fighting. I said early France is weak for a novice player.
France can declare war in 1936 vs. Germany.
- You: "Of course actually declaring war as France in 1936 is not possible."
- Me: Huh? Try contesting the Germany's Rhine Demilitarization and see how that plays out. BTW this happens on March 11, 1936.
Yes, the novice player...
- does not know how to balance the land game: supply, attrition, planning, etc...
- will kiss their Civ factory advantage goodbye to trade for oil or ignore running out of oil and leave his Motorized and Armored troops stagnant in the field
- will lose the air battle from superior air tech & superior airplane numbers
- will lose the fielded manpower advantage due to losses from under equipped and/or under supplied divisions
- 1
Basically you're saying that if a player does everything wrong with France then s/he may loose and France should be made so strong that even if it still does everything wrong France will win nonetheless against the strongest countries run by dumb AI even in the early game
Interesting....
Last edited:
Your posts are just odd. A novice player would get wrecked playing as any major vs another major. As Germany theyd suicide troops running into level 10 forts, and as Italy theyd die trying to fight in both Ethiopia and the alps vs France. Yes, if someone doesnt know how to play itll be a shit show, but that is not reflective of a nations overall strength.
As Ive said, in 1936 France has a bigger land army than both their neighbors and more total starting equipment. And their defensive position is strong in terms of terrain. So if anything theyre comparably stronger early compared to late.
Ive never seen the Rhineland challenge actually taken up by Germany, theyve always backed down at that moment so I didnt think it was possible. Maybe this changed at some point in the updates though.
- 1
My argument has always been 1 thing...."Fighting as Early France for a novice player is a shit show."
Translations... Solo game play (Player vs. AI) where player is France and AI is any other country (especially a major) and war breaks out early game. The player will get decimated.
It is not...
because that was what the person starting this thread was posting about. I wanted to address that issue.
User posted results screens of....
If you are new to playing HOI4 as France, I would recommend...
Translations... Solo game play (Player vs. AI) where player is France and AI is any other country (especially a major) and war breaks out early game. The player will get decimated.
It is not...
- Play as another major and see how that goes
- France mid to late game is still a bad country to play
- any new (made up) argument that exceeds, diverts, misrepresents my 1st argument
because that was what the person starting this thread was posting about. I wanted to address that issue.
User posted results screens of....
- Player: France Dec 1936 >100k losses
- AI: Italy < 30k losses
- France is crippled at the start with disjointed government
- counter?
- France is lacking in equipment at the start
- Counter? (don't forget only 8 mils at start)
- France is lacking Civs at the start
- Couter was...they have 35
- My counter...trapped in Civilian economy unless RNG gives them Early or Partial Mob (PP generation issues prevent timely user change)
- Additional Counter lacking oil will lead to trading Civs for Oil
- Build speed crippled by inefficient economy
- Couter was...they have 35
- France is lacking Mils at the start
- Counter? (Same build speed issue as Civs)
- Military Doctrine inflexibility (Victor's of the Great War defull)
- Counter?
If you are new to playing HOI4 as France, I would recommend...
- Play passive until 1939-40 or later
- Resolve Frances starting issues
- Disjointed Government
- Democratic path (6 focuses but last focus requires a one-year delay to pick it)
- Communist path (5 focuses but requires 45% communist support for last focus)
- Unaligned Path (5 focuses but requires a one-year delay to pick last focus)
- Fascist path (4 focuses but requires 50% fascist support to take 3rd focus)
- Man Power issues (Full employment debuff and/or French Union)
- Democratic (Little Entente can do both)
- Unaligned, Fascist, Communism can do Full employment or French Union)
- Military Doctrine purchase cost (remove Victor's of the Great War)
- Time to resolve is 490 days to fix (7 focuses x 70 days each focus)
- Can't start until France has at least 12% war support
- Counter Inefficient Economy
- Form the Popular Front can completely counter it
- Revive the National Block can 1/2 the debuff
- Infrastructure
- balance upgrading infrastructure
- build time in each province is impacted but infrastructure level (1-5)
- the higher the level the faster (more efficient) the build proceeds
- Build 10 or more Civs 1st then Mils
- balance upgrading infrastructure
- Resolve the research limitation (France starts with only 3 research slots)
- Disjointed Government
You misunderstood the OP IMO. The post was not about what a bad experience s/he had as France. The OP is boasting about how easily playing Italy s/he beat AI France before the end of 1936.
There's a speedrun on YouTube where Luxembourg conquers the whole world. Do you mean France is more difficult to play than Luxembourg?
-----
You keep repeating "novice" yet you set the bar at
Basically you say it is a bad idea for France to start an early war with a major since it does not have enough MICs. And you argue that's why we should say France is very weak. Well... If you jump off a cliff and get yourself smashed it's not gravity is too strong it's just a bad idea to jump off cliffs.
Last edited:
Im not sure why youre so invested in this argument when my initial statement was simply 'France isnt really that weak', but I guess Ill engage again if youre really into the subject.
Now keep in mind the discussion is about how strong/weak France is relative to other majors early in the game...I assume 1936.
So I went ahead and crunched some numbers in game because I was curious myself, and you kept claiming that France had a weak and underequipped starting army at the beginning of the game. The results are attached in a snapshot photo. What I did was switch occupation laws to military police and then disband all planes and divisions to get the total equipment count in the stockpile afterwards. (I got lazy and didnt include Japan. Also Italy has some small sized divisions that you cannot disband, so their numbers are going to be a little underrepresented).
France overall is actually much better equipped than its neighbors. Obviously not in everything, just meaning overall. And of course because it has so few military factories, eventually Germany and Italy catch up, but at the start of 1936 they have a pretty respectable head start that will take a bit of time to catch up to. If any divisions are underequipped, its just because theyre fielding too many of them (like useless cavalry divisions) that can be esily disbanded, in terms of actual equipment numbers theyre ahead of the game. So you CANNOT say they lack equipment at the start of the game when they have the second most of it in the world.
Yes, disjointed government is very bad, but if anything early on its not as much a problem, because their deficit of political power compared to other majors is not as pronounced that early.
France's Navy is large enough to prevent any naval invasions, and Germany has no chance of breaking the maginot line, and Italy has similar dismal prospects of getting through the Alps. Even as a novice, just parking your army at either of these locations and doing essentially nothing else will stop both nations in the their tracks. Its once they ramp up their military production and France falls behind that they actually become super dangerous. Relatively speaking, France is in a BETTER position in 1936, then fades in the mid-game buildup while theyre getting rid of their debuffs, then starts to get much stronger again once theyve cleaned up their old issues.
Some other final thoughts based on your comments:
-Inefficient economy does not effect build speed, only production, which is largely offset by the 3x industry bonuses you get on the right side of the tree
-France has no oil, but tons other crucial resources like Aluminum, Tungsten, and rubber. Germany and Italy have issues those resources (particularly rubber), and not much domestic oil of their own either
-in 1936 no one has much if any army experience, so France being 'stuck' on VotGW is not much of a problem...in some ways theyre at an advantage, because 'Protected by the Maginot Line' gives a +25% bonus to max planning
Attachments
- Superb job! Thank you so much!
- Never put together numbers for different majors. I played for ITA so I knew FRA is strong (except for low VP capitulation threshold) and especially tanks are a pain in the ass. Yet I never realized it is THAT strong.
Last edited:
Indeed.
I think December 10th is the earliest date that i've capitulated them.
I have capitulated them more quickly, but started a little later.
One thing I did differently in this run is I hacked the Italian at start stockpiled armour to be what it was intended to be: 150 Fiat 3000's and 40 Fiat 3000B's rather than the 190 unarmed interwar light tanks it normally starts with.
The fastest as Italy on the ground was 16 days and I've also done 21 days and this time 22 days.
As Germany, I've capitulated France in 7 days and 8 days, but I used PARAs.
- 1
the zero oil thing is weird. didn't france occupy Syria and not give it freedom like it promised because oil was discovered there?
Many valid points. I won twice by denying the Rhineland as France, but God I don't want to do this again, and probably luck helped me a bit: it's impossible to win consistently.
What you didn't mention however is how weak France is still very good to start in the Spanish war already by 1936: it's not a major, but it helps to be prepared a bit earlier for a major conflict.
I dont get the point about boasting speedrun France in early game. its not a acomplishment.
France start with more forces, but is only 65% equipment. Their main force is 19 INF(template 9xINF, +art+eng)
The Italy main force is 17 INF(template 6xINF, +art+eng), but near fully equiped.
France start with more forces, but is only 65% equipment. Their main force is 19 INF(template 9xINF, +art+eng)
The Italy main force is 17 INF(template 6xINF, +art+eng), but near fully equiped.
- 1
- 1