Is Convoy Raiding warfare worthwhile at all?

[him_15]

Let’s say for Germany is it really worth to put resources into submarines. Would convoy raiding really help winning the war against the Allied? Britain required imported food and resources to sustain the war but since food isn’t a thing in game. Would the deny of resources matter that much in game?

 

[HmJ_JP]

Let’s say for Germany is it really worth to put resources into submarines. Would convoy raiding really help winning the war against the Allied? Britain required imported food and resources to sustain the war but since food isn’t a thing in game. Would the deny of resources matter that much in game?

Against the Axis it helps to deplete its manpower, but nothing OP.

 

[Findell_HOI]

Let’s say for Germany is it really worth to put resources into submarines. Would convoy raiding really help winning the war against the Allied? Britain required imported food and resources to sustain the war but since food isn’t a thing in game. Would the deny of resources matter that much in game?

If you do it correctly you can run the british out of fuel/oil so they can not use their planes/fleet. But its really unnecessary these days you can much more easily sealion and knock them out.

 

[ltccone]

Let’s say for Germany is it really worth to put resources into submarines. Would convoy raiding really help winning the war against the Allied? Britain required imported food and resources to sustain the war but since food isn’t a thing in game. Would the deny of resources matter that much in game?

Since submarines no longer help with naval superiority, I no longer build them. It is easier to build surface ships and invade Britain.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

Cripple rubber imports = cripple they air production.
Also kill they early shifting frontlines troops.

I consider convoy raid against UK is a overpowered atm, if you do, the "super italy" will emerge.

 

[Kanitatlan]

I don't know that it is particularly useful, as others have indicated, but as a Soviet player I will often use it against the allies in a follow on war. This is effective at neutralising the value to the Allies of the UK which is a significant step since my preferred strategy is to fight the USA in Europe. So, yes I use submarine warfare but only because I want to extend the fight for the UK.

 

[Sourlol]

the inevitable “I don’t play the base game” caveat, aside, in the mod I play it’s very important—or can be.

The meta in our games tends to be a navally aware Germany. They build surface raiders and submarines. Forcing the RN to put out ASW patrols to deal with submarines, only for surface raiders to show up and kill escorts and convoys. That forces uk to put caps in their escorts or start chasing the Germans around the Atlantic (but usn and rn have typically slower BBs than the Germans CA/BC/BB so with good micro you can outrun the enemy) Crucially for the Germans this means A. RN isn’t in the med. in full force B. UK is now investing heavily in her navy meaning she isn’t building land equipment or fighters/bombers. C less equipment is getting to USSR.

Years ago we had a game where our submarine balance was off. Too strong, too hard to kill. The uk got to like 200-300 convoys in a world where in our mod they have 5-6000 convoys in 36 before more are built. It’s nearly as effective as invading the uk.

 

[WSnova]

Yes, against the UK it will starve their overseas troops out of supply, they eventually run out of fuel and once you get to a critical mass of Subs they can start sinking the fleet itself.

As Netherlands with 30 1940 subs I was sinking actual capital ships and Japan was struggling greatly.

I´d say subs are probably the best ship. To counter them you really need to change up your strategy and build more NAVS/ASW DDs/CVs because investing a little in them is not going to cut it.

2nd best girl are Cruisers BTW

 

[pheonicia]

I basically only ever build subs and, later on, destroyers.

 

[LordWahu]

Ironically, I find it more useful as nations like Britain. Nations with heavier capacity, but also a large amount of space to deal with. Get your opponent busy with defending their convoys, and you simultaneously deny them them the ability to adequately naval invade and properly engage your fleet

Combine it with heavy logistics strikes, and you can leave your opponents completely out of supply, giving you basically free reign to mop them up

This all being said, I prefer to use surface raiders over subs because you get to whittle down their screen ships as well

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Since submarines no longer help with naval superiority, I no longer build them. It is easier to build surface ships and invade Britain.

subs got nerfed down to reasonable levels, but they can still get you superiority. it is easy to farm admiral xp with them and then blow up fleets in mine-infested waters with them too. it's a bit different from just making 150-200 bathtubs and launching invasion while enemy fleet's intact, but sinking most of it and getting green zones gets the job done.

 

[Secret Master]

I see a lot of good responses here, but I want to chime in with a few of my own.

Let’s say for Germany is it really worth to put resources into submarines.

That depends on what you mean by "put resources into submarines."

Germany starts with 1936 subs and a little guy named Donitz. Against the AI on normal, those two factors, plus Germany's starting dockyards (and the occupied ones in France/Benelux/Poland) are enough to give you a decent chance of neutralizing the British merchantmarine by June of 1941.

Why is this the case?

Donitz starts with the Sea Wolf trait. This unlocks silent hunter, torpedo expert, and loading drill master from Day 1. He doesn't have to work for them. And Donitz can hypothetically command all submarines if you organize them into 10 flotillas. So, from day 1, Germany has a skill 5 admiral that fires torpedoes every three hours instead of 4, has a +10% torpedo hit chance, and -15% chance to reveal subs when they fire. Oh, and a flat 20% increase to sub attack just from being a Sea Wolf. On top of that he has a skill of 5 in attack for another 25% to attack.

From day 1, Germany can produce these subs (if you spend five minutes getting the required naval XP to design a new sub):

Sounds weak, right?

But wait, Germany has the Raiding ship designer. Let's burn 150 PP and apply it:

So, with starting techs, a starting admiral, and their raiding designer, Germany is no longer Germany, but it's now the Romulan Star Empire:

(What Donitz might look like in an alternate timeline)

You should be able to build around 100 of those subs (not counting existing ones at game start) by the time France falls. That should be plenty of subs to eviscerate British shipping.

If you take the time to grab 1940 submarine techs, you might as well be building this:

Britain's troops overseas will be out of supply. Britain's rubber imports will be decimated. Britain will be starving for fuel especially because sending ships out to escort the convoys will consume fuel even as you sink it. You will watch as the British AI keeps putting more and more dockyards on convoys until there's no other naval construction.

So, I don't think you need to put much effort into convoy raiding in order to be successful with it. The most effort you might put into it is exercising ships to get the requisite naval XP for a new 1936 sub. And maybe stopping construction on the surface ships and focusing just on subs. But that's fewer mouse clicks than planning Sea Lion.

 

[mpop]

if you can rush 1940 subs and slap a snorkel on them the AI don't know how to counter them because they don't know how to build new modern ships to counter them.

 

[HmJ_JP]

subs got nerfed down to reasonable levels, but they can still get you superiority. it is easy to farm admiral xp with them and then blow up fleets in mine-infested waters with them too. it's a bit different from just making 150-200 bathtubs and launching invasion while enemy fleet's intact, but sinking most of it and getting green zones gets the job done.

What do you mean with farm admiral XP? I regularly have 2 admirals, 10 TF each, exclusively on convoy raiding against the Axis, and it usually takes nearly 3 years to have them 1 rank up.

 

[mursolini]

Donitz starts with the Sea Wolf trait. This unlocks silent hunter, torpedo expert, and loading drill master from Day 1. He doesn't have to work for them. And Donitz can hypothetically command all submarines if you organize them into 10 flotillas. So, from day 1, Germany has a skill 5 admiral that fires torpedoes every three hours instead of 4, has a +10% torpedo hit chance, and -15% chance to reveal subs when they fire. Oh, and a flat 20% increase to sub attack just from being a Sea Wolf. On top of that he has a skill of 5 in attack for another 25% to attack.

Wouldn't consealment expert be better?
Unlocking sub traits seem quite easier then superior tactican.

Also, does smoke screen trait works for subs?

 

[Tricontinental]

In a historical USA run, I think Japan's manpower losses to my subs were bigger than the land combat casualties I was inflicting through island hopping around the Pacific. And by the time I was rolling out sub 3s, they were sinking capital ships, too. Combined with the attrition warfare in China, their manpower and equipment went down very fast and I was able to capitulate Japan before Germany around late 1944.

So yeah, convoy raiding won't win the war alone, but it can make your life so much easier.

 

[Findell_HOI]

What do you mean with farm admiral XP? I regularly have 2 admirals, 10 TF each, exclusively on convoy raiding against the Axis, and it usually takes nearly 3 years to have them 1 rank up.

The best way to get the Sea Wolf Trait is not to farm it it takes forver. The best way to get around farming them and that is to roll an Adminral with the SeaWolf Trait.

If you Pickup the Naval Docterine Trade Interdiction. And then Pickup The Naval Spirit Convoy Warfare ( 1st slot ). You can directly get a new Admiral with Sea Wolf.

 

[HmJ_JP]

The best way to get the Sea Wolf Trait is not to farm it it takes forver. The best way to get around farming them and that is to roll an Adminral with the SeaWolf Trait.

If you Pickup the Naval Docterine Trade Interdiction. And then Pickup The Naval Spirit Convoy Warfare ( 1st slot ). You can directly get a new Admiral with Sea Wolf.

Right? I don't get how we can farm anything with subs, besides enemy's graveyards. I love the naval game, nerfing subs was ok for me but the XP generation in this game is really awkward.

 

[Findell_HOI]

I do find that convoy raiding works best against japan and the UK both being island nations without enough resources by land routes.

It also works very well against American in cutting off supply to their islands but it will not let you win a war on its own you still need a surface fleet to get naval invasions off.

 

[HmJ_JP]

I do find that convoy raiding works best against japan and the UK both being island nations without enough resources by land routes.

It also works very well against American in cutting off supply to their islands but it will not let you win a war on its own you still need a surface fleet to get naval invasions off.

It also works well against Germany/Italy in the first months of the war, especially all around Africa/incl. Mediterranean sea: that's a lot of resources/manpower reallocated.