Hearts of Iron IV - 48th Development Diary - 11th of March 2016

[fellaz007]

Hey if I want to send my army on a hopeless attack with 0.001% chance of success that should be my right! Going "Ah screw it, I'm gonna just do a banzai charge" when you can't be bothered any more is one of the great things about playing Hearts of Iron.

This "heck I want it all and everything, whether it makes sense or not" attitude creates a major challenge when you develop game mechanics and a comprehensive AI. You need to come down to a list of essentials which govern the game mechanics and allow the AI to interact in a challenging way.

Me personally, I find the current compromise as it present itself in the devdia and WWW quite promising.

 

[Hoxx]

 

[Daffius]

Flashing-glow-ie blobs of enemy divisions all piled-up at an enemy port with a gigantic red arrow outlining their invasion route.

... and swarms of enemy ships patrolling along the route of the gigantic red arrow.

... and yes; I'm just making this up.

EDIT: That's something, too:

Now we have good reason to prevent the enemy from swarming naval patrols in the sea areas outside of our major ports. Even if you can't control the entire sea area, if you push any potential invasions away from major ports, you automatically limit the size of any invasion force.

... that is assuming that the same rules regarding supply work in HoI 4 as were in HoI 3 - you need ports to carry supplies to landed formations.

Way to miss the point.

Let's start from basics; Flying circus is referred to when say UK can land troops, encircle an enemy division, destroy some industry and then leave. When Podcat mentioned that they try to negate gamey tactics, I was asking if this was considered.

What I can see is that it is still possible. Although it is a step in the right direction as it takes naval force to land. However that navy is already a given in case of a UK, so this tactic is still viable ESPECIALLY if evacuation is still instant.

 

[Nelfe]

I am curious how multi-nation naval invasion is handled like the June 6th day landings? Would they be several separate invasions or is it possible for multiple nations to be used as one force?

You can't share Battle Plan with your ally (but, if they are players too - in MP - they can see it on the map), so you need to make several separate invasions.

 

[dreadunsought]

I am glad that Naval Invasions is elaborated.
But, I am worried about whether this delicate system can support temporizing technique.
That's because the player strikes the land of both sides of the province with the port using a rule, "the army can fight without supply for one month" in HOI3, and it was able to bring ports under control without a penalty.
I think that the rule, "the army can strike only the sandy beach" such as HOI2 is rigid, but hope for there not being the gap on a system spoiling the fun of the Naval Invasions such as HOI3.

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

Very nice (and very expected) DD it seems to me. Looks like we'll be preparing such operations way more like we'd have done IRL. Nice for immersion and realism.

Questions
1/ What if I don't have naval supremacy on my own but allies do ? Can I plan the invasion ?
2/ What if, in case, allies navy leaves one of the areas while my forces are getting prepared ? While they're sent ? While battle has started ?
3/ Will it be possible, as defender, to focus air bombing/torpedoeing specifically on landing crafts/troop convoys, during the first few hours of the battle ? Imagine if Allies couldn't, for Overlord, have prevented German to attack the beaches...
4/ Is there any supply aspect where as long as I didn't capture any important city/harbour/etc, troops don't get any supply and have to live on their own, only thanks to what is provided by the naval corridor ? How many days a soldier can live beyond the beaches if, say, naval control is lost immediately after the battle started ?
5/ can I, as defender, set up a paratroop counter-offensive where 1% of them could have the chance to land on a ship and fight for the control of it ?... Ok let's say this one was a joke...

 

[EntropyAvatar]

What I can see is that it is still possible. Although it is a step in the right direction as it takes naval force to land. However that navy is already a given in case of a UK, so this tactic is still viable ESPECIALLY if evacuation is still instant.

Yeah there were a few cases in the WWW where a lot of divisions evacuated out of port very very quickly. I could maybe accept that as people cramming onto a ship from small craft, but if you can't flood that much equipment through the port in that time using the supply system, you probably shouldn't be able to evac it that quickly either. I'd really like to see loading and unloading convoys to take into account potential flow rates, with an option to leave the equipment behind.

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

6/ Will we be able to build a non-concrete, pre-fab harbour ? I think a specific design could be needed here, as it was a soooo important aspect ! We could be able to build it in the preparation time, then the battle starts (beaches control), then engineers set up this pre-fab harbour while the soldiers go deeper in the country. This operation would need time.
Or what are the dev thoughts on it ?

 

[FieldMedic]

Looks fantastic! Some questions. I assume troop transports are still a thing can we also build invasion and assault ships? Do transport ships appear as units on the map or are they abstracted? How good is the AI, realistically, at pulling off these kinds of invasions?

 

[princeseth]

I don't know if this has been talked so far but what about distances ? can you choose 10 marine divisions stationed in San Francisco draw a line somewhere in Japan and that's it ? (assuming you have air and naval superiority) ... I haven't understand how this works ... and secondly ... does the players actually see the transports sailing all the way to their destination (meaning that may be sunk in the way) or are they teleporting like planes ?

 

[Lordmars]

For each strategic area you pass through with the invasion plan you must have sufficient Naval Supremacy. You get that by having sufficient amount of ships on patrol and by controlling the skies (air superiority). If you do not control these things you won't be able to invade (no sending your whole army to suicide). This makes it pretty clear now to defend as well. For example as UK - as long as your fleet is strong and stationed around the island and your air force is up and about you can feel safe from naval invasions.

This could make historical situations in the Pacific difficult, the US didn't have naval supremacy in the South Pacific during some key battles like Guadalcanal for example, will there be no work around where I can attach my invasion fleet to a big fleet for protection?

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

That's because the player strikes the land of both sides of the province with the port using a rule, "the army can fight without supply for one month" in HOI3, and it was able to bring ports under control without a penalty.

Wasn't it only in the vanilla or something ?.. I more remember something like about one week, but it's still quite unrealistic for sure..

 

[mdi]

Can't wait for next week. NUKEEES!

 

[Alex_brunius]

I don't know if this has been talked so far but what about distances ? can you choose 10 marine divisions stationed in San Francisco draw a line somewhere in Japan and that's it ? (assuming you have air and naval superiority) ... I haven't understand how this works ... and secondly ... does the players actually see the transports sailing all the way to their destination (meaning that may be sunk in the way) or are they teleporting like planes ?

As written in the DD you need Naval supremacy in all areas the invasion passes however, which means you have to spread your fleet out pretty thin if you want to make very long range invasions.

And no they don't seem to be instant but can be sunk on the way:

• Make sure to always have ships set up as escorts. Even if you have sufficient naval supremacy to launch the invasion - if the enemy rallies their whole fleet after the invasion is already under way there is still a chance some of the convoys could get intercepted.

If ship ranges are similar to in HoI3 this also means you need to send your fleet without escorts to have range all the way to Japan from San Fransisco ( if even battleships have this long range ).


Combine all 3 of these facts and a spread out fleet + lack of escorts close to enemy shores + long vulnerable transit means even if it is possible there is probably a huge risk attached. Which is a good thing since there were some historical long range invasions done where the sea and air routes were safe ( operation Torch or US first landing of Guadalcanal for example ).

 

[podcat]

I'm actually very interested in how much supply is secured when landing on a beach/harbor. A rough guide would be nice since a lot of forces were lost in WWW to supply issues after landing!

Basically, you need to secure a naval base. Depending on the base level you can move in a certain amount of supply. Any local supply you need to link up with (take over area/VPs)

Will convoys be locked for invasion plans or can you just not execute the order if you're lacking convoys?

convoys get reserved by the invasion order when created and you can launch it until it has enough.

Sounds more structured than in previous games, and that's nice.

How does one integrate airborne troops into the whole thing?

well its a while different things. Paras we might talk about in a future diary separately. Basically its like naval invasions but not with a long planning phase. You need to deploy transport planes from their air bases to move the paras and drop them and any area they pass though requires fairly high air superiority. Paras also get shot at by AA (or enemy planes) so are likely to be damaged on landing.

As well as marines can we land amphibious tanks and the like? Or only infantry?

you could mod some in. We dont have special tanks for this. You can try to land tanks but they are aweful at it.

Can naval invasions be part of a multi stage plan - i.e. land here then advance to this battle line?

Yeah you can multistage:

Can only battleships be used to support naval invasions?

no, any capital ship (well not carriers directly at least) can.

Also, how are sealifts between friendly territories handled?

I'm worried that someone could plan a lightning 1 division invasion with minimal prep and then land 10 divisions behind. Not unlike the old hoi2 exploit of taking plymohth with paras and then having transports preloaded with the entire 6th army sneak in.

as someone already said, then its not a large invasion and if enemy leaves a gap open its their fault. Its generally not a problem because swatting down single guys isnt so hard.

Thank you for the DD. Nice to read one that wasn't covered, in detail, during the WWWs.
I'm assuming that the nation being invaded can improve their defense defenses against invasions, as well? Would this be done through research, too? How?

well, you defend using air/navy so its part of the standard stuff. you can build naval forts as well.

Is the invader trait assigned to Naval commanders or Army commanders or is it a combination of both?

army commander.

I am curious how multi-nation naval invasion is handled like the June 6th day landings? Would they be several separate invasions or is it possible for multiple nations to be used as one force?

separate invasions, but you can see when ai plans to launch. you can also give over expeditionary forces

 

[Denkt]

Can you increase Naval bases in occupied territory so that you can support a larger army?

 

[chopak]

Can we please get notification about landed invasion? I can live without knowing my country is going to be invaded if i have not enough intel, but not being notified that I'm attacked when I'm focusing on the front on another continent, can be troublesome.

 

[Nelfe]

you could mod some in. We dont have special tanks for this. You can try to land tanks but they are aweful at it.

So you can't create a template using Marines with a little bit of tanks battalion ?

 

[podcat]

So you can't create a template using Marines with a little bit of tanks battalion ?

you can, but the penalties of tanks are so bad that it wont be a good idea. but sure they are better than just tanks at invading

 

[FieldMedic]

What support brigades would fit well with marines during an invasion?