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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning
Part 1: Map Changes

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Hello there!
This thread is something I anticipated for a long time. I wanted to post it before, but I decided to wait for today's dev diary before. Central Italy was perhaps the most dynamic part of Italy during the first half of EU4's timeframe, and I want the game to better represent that.

Now, what are the current problems with Central Italy (and with the Papal States in particular):
- centralized Papal States in 1444 -> extremely ahistorical
- the Papal States is a state like any other, no, even worse, since it has no access to the Papal Influence related mechanics and the Catholic bonuses.

This will change. With this suggestion, the Papal States are gonna be destroyed and reforged, and the Catholic mechanics as well.

Fast links to navigate this thread:
  1. Map Changes (following)
  2. Nations: here
  3. New formable Nation, New Government Reforms, How to Portray an Occult Signoria and Two Little Decisions: here
  4. Papal (or Decentralized) Vassals, A new Latin Culture, Latin Cultural Names: here
  5. Data exposition and basic statistics on Cardinals, Cardinal-Nephews, Conclaves, College of Cardinals and Concistories: here
  6. Current problem of Catholicism in-game, New Papal Influence generation, New Cardinals and how to Influence them, How to influence a Conclave and New Papal Controllers: here
  7. Adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals, How and Why Cardinals go Abroad, Concistories and New Pace/Diplomacy/Espionage options: here
  8. Capitulations, the College of Cardinals as a Parliament and How to use (RoM DLC) traits to improve the proposed mechanics: here
  9. Internal Problems of the Papal States in 1444, How to Portray and How to Solve them in the game, Kingdom of God and other decisions: here
  10. Tithes, Provincial Legates and Some Minor Suggestions: here
I'll add, for all of you who want to know better the Republic of Ancona, the suggestion posted by my friend @Funchi: here

HABEMVS PAPAM

Let's get down to business, here is what this long series of posts will be about:
-Reviving Central Italy, in particular the regions of Lazio, Umbria, Marche and Romagna
-Reviving Catholicism in a historical manner
-Other minor suggestions

I'm sorry, but I will not touch Tuscany (exept from a new province). Maybe in the future ;)
Also, the province histories does not contain the Napoleonic occupations. They will inherit that form the province they were split from.

Speaking about the map I want to propose:
- 8 new provinces
- 7 new nations
- 2 new states

DISCLAIMER: the "?" means I'm not exactly sure but it's my best guess. When denoting ruler's skills, it means that I did not find any information about them or the avaiable information is not enough to draw a conlusion. In game, I'd like them to be random.

But let's not wait longer, see it with your own eyes:

Part 1 : MAP CHANGES

MAP - modified with cities and numbers.png


As you can see, Central Italy is now much more fragmented.

- In GREEN, there is the current state of Emilia-Romagna, which will become only Emilia, containing only Parma, Modena and Ferrara. Ferrara is effectively part of Romagna in real life, but to avoid punishing the nation of Ferrara and for having 3 provinces in the state, it will be in Emilia.

- In BROWN, we have the State of Tuscany. A very rich land, it will have a province more. The Republic of Siena is now split in two. That's because the Siena province was too big and round and because the city of Siena was somehow placed on the coast. Now, the province of Grosseto grants Siena access to the sea.

GROSSETO:
-Province:
Marsh
Cattle
Development: 3/3/3
Area: Tuscany

-History:
1336-1559 -> annexed by Siena
1559-1569 -> annexed by Florence (alongside with Siena -> Peace of Cateau-Cambresis)
1569-1821 -> annexed by Tuscany (Florence became Tuscany)

Now we get to the interesting part.

- In RED, we have the new State of Romagna. It consist of 4 provinces, belonging to 4 different nations: we have Ravenna, which was conquered in 1441 by the Republic of Venice, Bologna, which was a semi-independent Occult Signoria, Imola, which was ruled by the Manfredi family on behalf of the Duke of Milan and Rimini, which was a semi-independent Signoria ruled by House Malatesta. What is a semi-independet state or a Signoria? We'll talk about that later. Here, have some data about the provinces:

BOLOGNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Cloth
Development: 5/5/3
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria)
Leader: Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, age=31, ruling for 1 year (1 trait)
Heir: Giovanni Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, age=1

-History:
1443-1445 -> Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1413
1445-1463 -> Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424
1463-1506 -> Giovanni II Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443
1506-1511 -> annexed by the Papal States
1511-1512 -> Annibale II Bentivoglio (1/3/4), Romagnan culture, born in 1466
1512-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

RAVENNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Grain
Development: from 2/3/1 to 3/4/2 (3/3/1 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Cores:
Ravenna -> Signoria (special government)
if liberated before 1447, new leader will be Ostasio III da Polenta (in exile at the start)

-History:
1441-1510 -> annexed by Venice
1510-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

IMOLA:
-Province:
Hills
Grain
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2 (2/2/2 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Status: decentralized vassal under Milan (or vassal under Milan, or guaranteed by Milan)
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, age=37, ruling for 5 years (2 traits)
Consort: Agnese da Montefreltro (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=?
Heir: Astorre Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=32 (brother of Guidantonio)

-History:
1439-1448 -> Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1407
1448-1468 -> Astorre II Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born 8th Decemeber 1412
1468-1473 -> Taddeo Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born in 1431 -> pressed by the Duke of Milan, sells the city to the Cardinal Pietro Riario who gives it to his relative Girolamo Riario (nephew of Pope Sixtus IV)
1473-1488 -> Girolamo Riario (2/5/3), Ligurian culture, born in 1443
1488-1499 -> (consort-regent) Caterina Sforza (4/5/4), Lombard culture, born in 1463
1499-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1504 -> Interregnum (0/0/0)
1504-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

RIMINI:
-Province:
Coastline
Grain or Fish
Development: from 3/2/2 to 4/3/2
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, age=27, ruling for 12 years (2 traits)
Consort: Polissena Sforza (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=16
Heir: Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, age=4

-History:
1432-1468 -> Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, born 19 June 1417
1468-1482 -> Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, born in 1440
1482-1500 -> Pandolfo IV Malatesta (1/2/1), Romagnan Culture, born July 1475
1500-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1509 -> annexed by Venice
1509-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Woah, that is quite a bit of history knowledge, and it may gave you some ideas of some things I want to suggest later. But let's talk about why I added these 4 provinces:
-Imola: point of contrast between Milan, Florence and the Papal States (via an event if necessary). It also takes a diplomatic slot of Milan.
-Ravenna: point of contrast between Venice and the Papal States, it also buffs Venice
-Bologna: important city in Romagna, subdued at the start of the XVI century fter a war.
-Rimini: important state opposed to Urbino, both famous for their contrasts and their condottieri.

Not satisfied enough? Here we go again:

- In LIME (do not judge me for the color choice), we have the new State of Marca Anconitana, in large part semi-autonomous form the Pope's rule. We have 4 provinces here: Urbino (you alrerady know this guy), Ancona, a Merchant Republic, Camerino, a Sgnoria ruled by the Da Varano family, and lstly Macerata, the only part of the state that the Pope controls.

ANCONA:
-Province:
Hills or Farmlands
Wine or Paper (as of now)
Development: 6/6/2
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
XI century-1532 -> Merchant Republic of Ancona
1532-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

There will be a level 1 Center of Trade in this province, moved from the nearby Urbino.
My friend @Funchi will tell you more about this Nation ;)

MACERATA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: 4/3/3
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

CAMERINO:
-Province:
Hills
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2
Area: Marca Anconitana
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: (regency) Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=37
Heir: Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, age=10

-History:
1444-1449 -> Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1407 (regency uses the same rules as a normal regency in EU4)
1449-1502 -> Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1434
1502-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1527 -> Giovanni Maria da Varano (2/2/3), Umbrian culture, born in 1481 -> Becomes a Duchy
1527-1535 -> Caterina Cybo (?/?/?), Ligurian culure, born 13 Semptember 1501 -> regent for Giulia da Varano
1535-1539 -> Giulia da Varano (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born 24 March 1523 (died 18 february 1547) -> consort of Guidobaldo II della Rovere, Duke of Urbino
1540-1545 -> Ottavio Farnese (4/4/4), Umbrian culture, born 9 October 1524 (renounced to become Duke of Parma) -- already in-game
1545-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

URBINO:
the province is more or less the same. I prefer to make it lose 1/1/0 development and then compate it by giving it back with an event on the Urbinese Renaissance. More on that later.
Also, the level 1 Center of Trade should be moved to the province of Ancona, much richer and more of a trade hub than Urbino.

So, here I have to defend myself a little. Those of you familiar with Central Italy in the XVth Century already have noticed them, but for the others I'll say that there are three mistakes in this area:
-Ancona should not border Urbino, however I make them border each other to ease an Ancona start and to make the Macerata province look better.
-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.
-Macerata shoud not be in the Pope's control yet! I know, there was a large Signoria controlled by the future Duke of Milan Francesco Sforza. But it ended in 1445 and will be excessively difficult to model, so I'll represent things this way.

Last but not least, we have in BLUE the State of Lazio-Umbria. Yes, I know, what about Lazio-Campania and Central Italy? Well, they are gone! They were extremely ahistorical and prompted the Pope and the King of Naples to cut each other's throat, which was again ahistorical. So I made a better state. Here, we have 4 provinces: one of which is not under the Papal States: Perugia. Here we have the Occult Signoria of the Baglioni family, that will rule for a more or less a century before getting conquered by the Pope.

PERUGIA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: circa 4/4/2
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Braccio I Baglioni (5/5/5), Umbrian culture, age=25, ruling for 6 years (2 traits: Martial Educator, Freethinker)

-History:
1438-1479 -> Braccio I Baglioni(5/5/5), Umbrian culture, born in 1419
1479-1500 -> triple signoria of Guido I, Rodolfo I and Astorre I
1500-1520 -> Giampaolo I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1470
1520-1527 -> Gentile I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in ?
1527-1531 -> Malatesta IV Baglioni (2/4/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1491
1531-1540 -> Rodolfo II Baglioni (2/0/2), Umbrian culture, born 1st July 1518
1540-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

SPOLETO:
-Province:
Hills
Wine?
Development: from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

CAMPAGNA:
Capital: Frosinone
-Province:
Marsh or Hills (territory is divided in two part: marshes near the sea and hills where the province capital is)
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/2 to 4/4/4 (3/3/3 is advised)
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

In this proposal, Rome should lose 2 manpower development.

So, here I will say just one thingabout Lazio-Umbria. The Campagna province reprsents the Legation of "Campagna e Marittima". It also serves to separate Rome from Naples and introduce some strategic depth.

I'll briefly talk about the province of Avignon, although there is not much to say. In my suggestion, to better balance the development count of the Papal States, the province of Avignon loses 1/1/1 development.

Well, this is the end of the map changes!
STAY TUNED! Next is coming: new nations, government reforms and Occult Singoria!

PS: also, I will tage here @DDRJake and @neondt to make this thread more visible to the devs, since this area will be touched nex year.

PPS: I do not know yet how many parts I will publish, but they will be a lot!
 
Last edited:

neondt

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Wonderful. Saving for my post-vacation forum binge.

Initial thought though, I would make Bologna independent.
 

Van Kasten

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Wonderful. Saving for my post-vacation forum binge.

Initial thought though, I would make Bologna independent.

Thanks!

I would prefer Bologna as a new kind of vassal. Bologna was formally under the Pope, but was very autonomous for being a subject. Also were Perugia, Urbino, Camerino, Ancona, Rimini (to the Papal States) and Imola (to Milan). I will introduce a new type of vassal based on the idea of the Daymio-Shogun relationship, so no heavy code alteration to implement those ;) They would be actually more fun to play in this way, in my opinion. Also, I fear Bologna won't be independent for long since it borders Ferrara and Florence which are stronger.
But this is my suggestion.

I'll say: give me time. I'll explaing everything. There is much road ahead for this thread.
 
Last edited:

gronak

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Love the look and sound of this. Good work!

Would love if all of Italy, and even Europe, had this province density.

Do you have any ideas of what should happen when the papal state takes enough of Italy to proclaim the Kingdom of God? Right now it's really bland and underwhelming. Guessing if you do, that'll be in your next update about new nations, governement reforms and semi-autonomous vassals?
 
Part 2: Nations

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Hello there!
Time for part two of the thread!
Before this, I will say that all things and reworks concerning the Papal States (and there are lots of those) will be presented later, as now I have more to talk about ;)
Your patience will be worth it.

Part 2: NATIONS

Let's state this clearly, I will not provide National Ideas to this new States. Partly because they were annexed relatevely soon (except Urbino), partly because a revisited Italian Minors Ideas set will do just fine.

I also have to thank @Centuria for having created those beautiful and functional flags out of the one I proposed. Really a nice work ;)

Let's not indulge any further, let us see all the new nations:

  • RIMINI
Rimini.png

The Hose Malatesta CoA... mesmerizing, don't you think?

Rimini is a strip of land on the coast of the Adriatic Sea. it is also the main link between Romagna and the Marca Anconitana. It was home to a Signoria that was the main Rival of House Monefeltro in the nearby Urbino. It was briefly dominated by Venice in the years between the fall of the Duchy of Romagna and the War of the League of Cambrai, in which all of Europe powers allied against the most Serene Republic prompted by the Pope. It's a minor nation, but in an interesting setup and position.

As stated before, the government type of Rimini is a Signoria. What is it and what bonuses does it give? To be concise, the Singoria is a type of Italian monarchy that originates form a family holding too much power inside a Republic and then becoming lords of that province. For the bonuses, I will list all th new Government Reforms later.

This is the initial setup of Rimini:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, age=27, ruling for 12 years (2 traits)
Consort: Polissena Sforza (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=16
Heir: Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, age=4

  • CAMERINO
Camerino.png

The Da Varano family's CoA can be mesmerizing too

Camerino was en enclave state in the Marca Anconitana region fo the Papal States. For simplicity, it's not an enclave anymore and has some routes of expansion. It was home to some condottieri, although not as famous as Rimini's or Urbino's. It focused on it's internal stability and expanded so little that it's not possible to represent. When it was conquered by the Duchy or Romagna of Cesare Borgia, he killed the head of the family, but not his son who then ruled the Signoria after Cesare's fall from power.

Camerino starts in a regency, so it's will be only for the most skilled players to lead this small nation to world prominence.

Starting setup:
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: (regency) Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=37
Heir: Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, age=10
Those of you who know Camerino's history, you are probably wondering where is Rodolfo IV Da Varano. That is a legitimate and interesting question. For those of you who are wondering what I'm talking about, I'll delve into some murderous history...
When Rodolfo III Da Varano, Signore (Lord) of Camerino, died in 1424, his numerous sons wanted to get his position at the head of the family, and so a bloody chain of murders began: the first was Giovanni and the second was Piergentile, both assassinted in 1433 by agents sent by their brother Berardo. This angered the people, and Berardo was lynched in Tolentino on July 12th, 1434. The people decided to become a republic and on October 10th of the same years executed four males of the Da Varano family: Gentilpandolfo, Gianfilippo, Bartolomeo and Ansovino. The republic lasted a decade. Thanks to the Papal Vicar and Condottiere Carlo Fortebracci, the two last male descendants of the Da Varano family, the cousins Rodolfo and Giulio Cesare, were made Signori (Lords) of Camerino. However, since the two were still young, Pope Eugenius IV wanted Rodolfo's mother, Elisabetta Malatesta, to be regent. Now, you have the background.
Giulio Cesare is a great figure in the history of Camerino, so he is well documented. His cousin Rodolfo IV is not. Some sources say he was born 4 years before Giulio Cesare, other say the other way around. Rodolfo died in 1464, that is for sure. Since it was a "Double Signoria" (two lords ruling at the same time), I preferred to "dumb it down" and portray the situation as such.
Thanks for the attention and keep up with the thread! ;)

  • PERUGIA
Perugia.png

Badass griffin mode: on

Perugia was an Italian Republic. Why did I use "was"? Because at the start of EU4 Perugia is an example of the Occult Signoria, whihc is the condition win which a prominent family has the power to control the republic but not to estabilish a perfect monarchy. The other examples are Bologna and Florence with the Medici.

Portraying an Occult Signoria is not somthing you can do on the fly, but I will talk about this later :p

Perugia, along with Bologna, is the most versatile of this new nations, choosing right from the start if to approach a republican game or a monarchic one.

Initial setup of Perugia:
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Braccio I Baglioni (5/5/5), Umbrian culture, age=25, ruling for 6 years (2 traits: Martial Educator, Freethinker)

  • RAVENNA
Ravenna.png

This is some unorthodox flag

What? Ravenna does not exist at the start? You're right. But it was conquered by Venice 3 years prior, so this means that is has a fresh core of its original government.

Ravenna province has a core of Ravenna (nation): it will be another Signoria and at the start it has a leader in exile. We are talking about Ostatio III Da Polenta, who will die in a tragic accident in 1447 on the Venetian Island of Crete during his "stay" there. There are new dynasties that can rise instead of the old one? Of course! Be patient though ;)

  • IMOLA
Imola.png

Badass griffin again, tihs time with a sword!

This little nation-state was conquered by the Duke of Milan and placed under the administration of the nearby Lords of Faenza, the Manfredi family. Imola starts as a semi-independent Signoria under Milan, or a vassal of Milan or guaranteed by Milan (ranked form best to worst representation).

Imola is a strategic city. It is a Milanese outpost in Romagna, a region which the Pope wants back after the return from Avignone. Meanwhile, the Republic of Florence guided by the Medici is resolute in expanding its sphere of influence in Tuscany and Romagna. Historically, Imola became independent after the proclamation of the Aurea Repubblica Ambrosiana in Milan but will be recaptured by the new Dukes of Milan, which will then pressure the Manfredi family to sell their possesion in Imola to the Florentine or to the Pope. In the end, the Pope won and got Imola, but the Florentine attempt in acquiring the city spiraled into an all-out conspiracy against the Medici which backfired and gave them more authority over the Republic. It's an interesting story, read it here.

Initial Setup of Imola:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, age=37, ruling for 5 years (2 traits)
Consort: Agnese da Montefreltro (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=?
Heir: Astorre Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=32 (brother of Guidantonio)

  • BOLOGNA
Bologna.png

Oh yes this is a flag!

Bologna is another example of an Occult Singoria, where the Bentivoglio family prevailed over the Senate. It was a rich city in the Pianura Padana, famous for its cloth manifacturies.

Bologna, alongisde with Perugia, will have a starting chain of events. You see, at the start of the game a conspiracy was being weaved. The Canetoli and Ghislieri families, political oppositors to the new regime of Annibale Bentivoglio, recently returned in the city after an exile, were trying to get the power back in the hands of the Senate, or theirs. So, some time after the start date Annibale was killed and will of the citizen of Bologna punished the conspirators. Sante Bentivoglio, a kinsman of Annibale, was summone from the court of Florence to be the new Singore and a tutor for Annibale's son Giovanni, which (you can tell) did pretty amazing things.

I have wrote an event about Annibale Bentivoglio's murder and succession, letting a Bolognese player will choose from:
-Having a generic regent for Giovanni
-Having Sante as a new leader maintaining Giovanni as heir (Sante will rule for his life)
-Having Bologna become a full on republic after the conspiracy
-Having the Canetoli family as the new prominet family in the Occult Signoria

This event is most important because it will fire very soon and it will have lasting consequences for the Nation.

This event will fire only once, during the Age of Discovery, Annibale I Bentivoglio is Bologna’s ruler, MTTH 7 months

“Fatal Conspiracy!”

“Annibale Bentivoglio fled from Bologna in 1435 when Daniele Scotto, the Papal Governor of Bologna, ordered his father’s assassination. When he returned in 1441, the city was dominated by Niccolò Piccinino, a famous and fearsome Condottiere. Fearing his’s power, he imprisoned Annibale in the Castle of Varano, near Parma. On the 3rd of June 1443 he was freed by his allies and returned to Bologna once again, where he led the revolt against Piccinino. When the city was liberated he was elected Head of the Sixteen Reformers, effectively ruling Bologna.

However, the Canetoli family, rival of the Bentivoglio family, threatened the peace and the stability of the city. Hoping to buy them to his side, Annibale nominated Battista Canetoli Head of the Eleders of Bologna, with no effect.

Today a christening was to be performed, and Annibale was invited by the Canetoli family to be present. He was caught in an ambush and killed. The Canetoli are behind this, and the Ghislieri family helped them with the murder.

Now the people of Bologna must choose their future. Will they rise against these conspirators and get their revenge in the name of the Bentivoglio family and its allies? Will they submit to a new Signore? Or will they return to the old Comunal ideals?”

  • Option A: “A local noble will be regent for Annibale’s son.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
A random Bolognese Noble becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option B: “Call Sante Bentivoglio from Florence to be regent.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424 becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option C: “The Canetoli shall rule Bologna now!”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
The Canetoli family becomes the prominent family in the Signoria Occulta
Battista Canetoli (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, bor in 1390 becomes the new ruler and head of the prominent family

  • Option D: “Bologna shall be a proper republic now.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to “Libero Comune” (Republic)
New elections are held

Initial setup:
Republic (Occult Signoria)
Leader: Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, age=31, ruling for 1 year (1 trait)
Heir: Giovanni Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, age=1

  • URBINO
Ubrino is pretty much unchanged. Only one thing should be changed; the flag. The current flag represents the CoA of House Della Rovere, which dominated the Duchy of Urbino after the House Montefeltro. Since the game starts with them, I'll change the flag to the CoA of House Montefeltro:

Urbino.png

HRE insignias everywhere!

This concludes the new nations in my setup of Central Italy. I hope these bit of history helped you grasp the level of complexity we are dealing with.

The next part will be on two things: a new formable nation (I wonder what it is!) and government reforms!

See you later! ;)



 
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Centuria

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Good post! I personally dont think this province density is requried everywhere in Europe, but Italy certainly is one area where it's a good thing because of the intense political fragmentation. If OP wouldnt mind, i have started working on ''fitting'' the coats of arms posted as a EU4 sized flags, since that make it so less work is needed on the dev's end.

The formable nation is totally the Kingdom of Romagna from CK2 right? :p
 

Van Kasten

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Good post! I personally dont think this province density is requried everywhere in Europe, but Italy certainly is one area where it's a good thing because of the intense political fragmentation. If OP wouldnt mind, i have started working on ''fitting'' the coats of arms posted as a EU4 sized flags, since that make it so less work is needed on the dev's end.

Thank you very much! :D
I think that a province desnity like this one can be achieved also in some parts of the HRE, which lacks so many tags!
By the way, I'm delighted to hear that you are resizing the CoA to fit EU4 flags!
If you could post them here when you have finished this will make this suggestion matter a little bit extra ;)

The formable nation is totally the Kingdom of Romagna from CK2 right? :p

Eheheheh... Nope! No Kingdom of Romagna was founded during EU4 timeframe, but a nation with the same name was founded indeed.
 

Hawkslime

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Great suggestion. Can´t wait for the Catholicism rework
 

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Part 3: New formable Nation, New Government Reforms, How to Portray an Occult Signoria and Two Little Decisions

Van Kasten

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Hello there!
Time for part three of the thread!
In this part we'll have a look at 4 points:
-A new formable tag
-New government reforms
-How to represent an Occult Signoria
-Two new decisions

Let's not delay further: here we go!

Part 3.1: THE DUCHY OF ROMAGNA

What is the Duchy of Romagna? It was a title created on the 15th Mat 1501 by Pope Alexander VI and bestowed upon his nephew Cesare Borgia. This was meant as a reward for having conquered much of Romagna and a formal recognition of his right to rule. Cesare Borgia will continue on to conquer Urbino, Camerino and Perugia, estabilishing his Duchy as a powerhouse of Central Italy. Then his uncle died and he soon fell out of grace and then banished form the Papal States by Julius II.
Here I mention a timeline of Cesare Borgia's conquests:
  • 11/12/1499 Imola
  • ??/??/1500 Rimini
  • ??/??/1502 Urbino
  • ??/??/1502 Camerino
  • ??/01/1503 Perugia
  • 1504 end of his domain
In later bookmarks of the game, his state will be the Duchy of Romagna. But let's talk about the preferred start date.
In my suggestion, the Duchy of Romagna can be formed via event (like historically) or via decision by any nation that has all the requirements to form it.

  • ROMAGNA
Cesare Borgia.png

"You like this flag? Thank @Centuria who kindly made it"

Adjective: Romagnan
Rank: Duchy
Government: Feudal Monarchy
National Ideas: Italian Ideas (for now)

-Requirements:
  • Government is Monarchy or Occult Signoria
  • not a Kingdom or an Empire
  • owns at least 4 provinces, 3 of them must be in the State of Romagna
  • Legitimacy at least 50
  • Prestige at least 25

-On formation:
  • if Capital is not in the state of Romagna or adjacent to it, then the most developed province in owned Romagnan-cutlured provinces becomes the Capital
  • change Government to Feudal Monarchy
  • gain 5 legitimacy
  • gain 5 prestige
  • gain Permanent Claims on any un-owned provinces in the State of Romagna
  • gain "Increased Centralization" modifier for X years
  • Romagnan culture becomes accepted (if there is a free slot)


Part 3.2: NEW GOVERNMENT REFORMS

Now we'll have a look at some government reforms I wrote for theocracies, monarchies and republics alike. They are not much but they can add more flavor (and historical accuracy) to the Peninsula.

DISCLAIMER: in the following Thoecracy Reforms I dared to change some of the existing reforms, because in my opinion there was no strategic choice between them. An example is Tier 3, in which +10% outclasses everything else (and will take effect even on fellow Catholics). Another example is Tier 2 with the -20% province warscore cost against heretics. In Tier 4 we have a +1 possible policies against a -10% stab cost. I think these reforms need some tweaking. Here is my proposal:

  • THEOCRACY

TIER 1
"Papacy" -> no change, "no possible rivals" is added
This prevents the Pope to immediately rivals some of his neighbor states and insta-excommunicate them. This is painful for any player, not immersive and not historical. I dediced to add this little change to prepare the ground for the next tier or reforms.

TIER 2
"Internal Mission": no changes for the other theocracies -> the Papal States get +2 tolerance of the True Faith, +1 Yearly Papal Influence
"What? Papal States get Papal Influence?"
"YES."
"Why?"
"Wait and everything will make sense"
"Ok..."
"External Mission": no changes for the other theocracies -> the Papal States get -20% war score against other religions and can rival only non catholic nations
In this case, the Papal States can indeed have rivals, but since they are focusing on purging heresy they cannot select Catholic nations as rivals.
"International Arbiter": (only for the Papacy) +1 diplomatic reputation, +10 power projection for a successful "Enforce Peace" (decaying by 1 each year), enables "Intrervene in War" special action even if not Great Power
This reform will be avaiable only for teh Papacy. It represents the ambition to become a diplomatic giant and to influence the politics in all of Europe. Comes with bonus feats like finally getting some Power Projection (through sheer diplomatic effort to maintain balance of powers) and being able to Intervene in War.

TIER 3
"Safeguard Holy Sites": no change
"Combat Heresy": +10% morale in Holy Wars and Excommunication Wars
+10% morale in all situations was the choice. It had to be changed in a flavorful way. If you want to combat heresy, you get a bonus in fighting heresy. It makes sense now. That's all.
"Expulsion of Heathens": no change
"Lead Christianity": (only for the Papacy) +1 Yearly Papal Influence, +10% clergy loyalty
Another special reform for the Papacy. This one is pretty clear and self-explanatory.

TIER 4
"Subservient Bureaucrats": +1 free diplomatic policy
+1 possible policies was too strong against a mere -10% stab cost. I had to change that.
"Zealous Administrators": +1 free administrative policy
A mere -10% stab cost was too weak against +1 possible policies. I had to change that.
"Delegations of Noblemen": (only for the Papacy) +1 free diplomatic policy, +10% Noble loyalty
Last special reform fot the Papacy in my suggestion. It represents the bearucratization of nobles in the Papal States after its centralization.

  • REPUBLIC

TIER 1
-> "Libero Comune" or "City-State": identical to the "Free City" reform but for every Latin cultured OPM republic -> +10% tax modifier, +10% trade efficiency, -40 max absolutism
Every nation in Italy was born as a Libero Comune from the Lombard League in 1176 to the Golden Ages of Communal Italy. The Signorie came later.
-> "Occult Signoria" -> described in the section below

TIER 4
-> "Council of the Priori" -> +5% national tax modifier, -25% cost of advisors with own culture [-20% clergy influence, +10% noble influence, +10% burghers influence] maybe as hidden effects
A unique reform for Italian Republics that is not of the first tier. This is only for flavor. I did not focus on balance.


  • MONARCHY

TIER 1
-> "Signoria" -> -10% mercenary cost, +5% own condottieri discipline, -10 maximum absolutism, fixed rank: Duchy, locks government like the English Monarchy (the second bonus applies only when you rent one of your armies as Condottieri to another nation that isn't your subject)
Unique government that gives a unique bonus and new options for fighting for money.

TIER 2
-> "Land the Condottieri" -> -50% own Condottieri drill decay, -20% cost of maintaining own Condottieri (these bonuses apply only whe you rent one of your armies as Condottieri to another nation)
Avaible to all Latin cultures, this makes using Condottieri even more profitable and useful.


Part 3.3: HOW TO REPRESENT AN OCCULT SIGNORIA

The most famous example of the Occult Singoria is the De Medici one in Florence.
However, during EU4's timeframe, more of them existed or were attempted:
-the Bentivoglio in Bologna
-the Baglioni in Perugia
-the Petrucci in Siena (attempted)
The "attempted" part is the key here, since we do not want only to represent existing Signorie, but also the formation of new ones.
Furthermore, more Signorie existed before EU4's timeframe and some ended near the start date (for example, the singoria of the "da Polenta" family over Ravenna ended in 1441 after the conquest of Ravenna by Venice).

There are 5 ways to represent an Italian Occult Signoria.

1) The Built-In MONARCHY Government (o the Republican one)
-PROs:
In the Monarchy representation, the dominant family has Heirs and Consorts
In the Republic representation, there is the choice to be a normal republic
-CONs:
In the Monarchy representation, there isn't the choice to be a normal republic
In the Republic representation, the dominant family has not Heirs or Consorts
In the Republic representation, after one round of election the dominant family is never to be seen again, making it impossible to have a fully dominant family. There was an attempt with the "Political Dynasties" reform, but (for example) Cosimo de Medici is old at the start and may die prematurely thus nullifyng that reform to represent the Singoria.

2) The Built-In REPUBLICAN DESPOTISM Government
-PROs:
Represents a situation between a Republic and a Monarchy, giving the choice to follow either path
-CONs:
This government is part of a DLC
When a ruler dies the new one is randomly generated and not of the same family
Low republican tradtion gives maluses that are unjustified in this case
The dominant family has not Heirs or Consorts

3) A modified REPUBLICAN DESPOTISM Government (that replaces Republican Despotism for Latin Culture Republics)
-PROs:
Would be a special government restricted to Latin Culture only
Represents a situation between a Republic and a Monarchy, giving the choice to follow either path
When a the head of the dominant family dies the new head is part of the same family (may be justified with sons, brothers, nephews, etc)
-CONs:
The base government is part of a DLC
When a ruler dies the following ruler is randomly generated
Low republican tradtion gives maluses that are unjustified in this case
The dominant family has not Heirs or Consorts
There is total dominance of the dominat family (no faction opposed to them)

4) A modified DUTCH REPUBLIC Government (that replaces Republican Despotism for Latin Culture Republics)
-PROs:
Would be a special government restricted to Latin Culture only
Represents a situation between a Republic and a Monarchy, giving the choice to follow either path
Has a slider representing the Influence of the dominant family over the Government
Each election the player will choose to support the dominat family of their political opposition (no more total dominance)
Republican Tradition is not forced to be low all the time
When a the head of the dominant family dies the new head is part of the same family (may be justified with sons, brothers, nephews, etc)
-CONs:
The base government is part of a DLC
When a ruler dies the following ruler is randomly generated
The dominant family has not Heirs or Consorts

5) A NEW Government (that replaces Republican Despotism for Latin Culture Republics)
-PROs:
New government with new mechanics (that will be part of a new DLC)
Would be a special government restricted to Latin Culture only
Should a situation between a Republic and a Monarchy, giving the choice to follow either path
There must be something to track the Influence of the dominant family over the Government
The player, through his actions, will support the dominat family of their political opposition
Republican Tradition may not be used (Popularity value to track Influence over the people substituting Republican Tradition)
The dominant family will have consorts and heirs, so that its line is no more randomly generated
When a the head of the dominant family dies without heir the new head will be part of the same family (may be justified with sons, brothers, nephews, etc)

ADDENDUM:
In the example number 4, the two faction would be the "Dominant_Family_Name" Supporters and the Oppositors. For example, Florence would get the "De Medici Supporters" and "Oppositors".
When the Supporters are in power, the dominant family will invest its resources into the Republic and will try to win the people's support.
When the Oppositors are in power, they will try to estabilish a better republic, ostracizing the dominant family until a new one will emerge.
I thought of these sets of bonuses
  • "Dominant_Family_Name in power" = - 1 yearly republican tradition, + 6 base tax (this will model the fact that smaller Singorie were better than laerger ones), - 1 National Unrest
  • "Oppositors in power" = + 1 yearly republican tradition, ... (I though of various bonuses to fit here, like corruption reduction, but I did not made up my mind yet to include only two of them. The Dev Team will surely be up to the task of balancing this little feature for me :p)
Now that I have extensively talked about meaty stuff, it's time for something much more simple.

Part 3.4: TWO LITTLE DECISIONS

Remember that a Singoria is locked to Duchy Rank? What can we do to reform into a standard Feudal Monarchy?
Simple, we add a decision for that.

Every Signoria will have a decision to become a Duchy:
-Requisites:
  • Legitimacy at least 90
  • Stability at least 1
  • Prestige at least 50
or
  • Legitimacy at least 67
  • Stability at least 1
  • Two or more provinces controlled
-Costs:
  • 50 Diplomatic Points
  • 0.1 years of income
-Effects:
  • Government becomes Feudal Monarchy (no more fixed rank and government) -> no reforms are lost, only the first one changes
  • Gain 10 legitimacy
  • Gain 10 prestige

The second decision that I'm proposing it'a again a simple one. In the province of Grosseto there was Marsh terrain, but in the XVIIIth century the Habsburg-Lorraine Grand Dukes of Tuscany decides to reclaim the land and they did so. Hence, every Tuscan-cultured nation or any nation with its capital in Grosseto will have access to this decision:

-Requisites:
  • Administrative Technology at least 21
  • Has at least 1000 manpower
  • Has at least 50 Administrative Points
  • Has at least 50 ducats
-Costs:
  • 50 Administrative Points
  • 1000 manpower
  • 50 ducats
-Effects:
  • Province Grosseto's terrain becomes Farmlands
  • Province Grosseto gains 2/2/2 development
This concludes part three of this thread.
I hope to have convinced you that a most accurate and historical portrayal of Central Italy (and Italy in general) is not out of the game's reach!
I also hope to have you hyped for the next parts coming tomorrow and the days after until I have no more material to show you.

STAY TUNED!
Next part will be on Papal (or Decentralized) vassals and about Culture and Names!
See you next time ;)
 
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Sanguine Caesar

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Madonna santa! Now this is the thread I've been waiting for! Great ideas all around! :D

Ancona actually had a rather significant alliance with Ragusa, so perhaps the two could start off as allies?
 

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Madonna santa! Now this is the thread I've been waiting for! Great ideas all around! :D

Ancona actually had a rather significant alliance with Ragusa, so perhaps the two could start off as allies?

I must say I appreciate the “Madonna Santa!”, it’s a nice thing to hear apart from the occasional “Mamma Mia!” :D
Thanks a lot for your review, but we have scratched the surface here! There is yet more to cover. But you must “dare tempo al tempo”, if you know what I mean.

Ancona indeed will start with an Alliance with the Republic of Ragusa! I had an agreement with @Funchi to let him present the nation of Ancona, so when he’s ready you’ll see with your own eyes ;)
 

Sanguine Caesar

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I must say I appreciate the “Madonna Santa!”, it’s a nice thing to hear apart from the occasional “Mamma Mia!” :D
Having an Italian mother teaches you a few things :p

Ancona indeed will start with an Alliance with the Republic of Ragusa! I had an agreement with @Funchi to let him present the nation of Ancona, so when he’s ready you’ll see with your own eyes ;)
Can't wait! :D
 

Centuria

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Regarding the Urbino and Romagna flags: Yes, the arms are more accurate, but they are just so incredibly cluttered, and using imagery from nearby tags (such as the crossed keys of the papacy) that i think that maybe using the historical arms may be detrimental. Its a situation similar as to why Savoy has letters in the flag even if it wasnt common, for gameplay; the ingame flag should be recognizable in a way so you can immediatly see to whom a certain army, navy or region belongs to.

Here's what i think could be used for Urbino; its the historical arms sans the overtly papal elements. And here's two ideas for Romagna: one the CK2 flag, which addimettdly has a lesser degree of historical basis (but looks good and creates consistency between games), and one based on the arms of the de Borgia, so it really feels like you're playing as spide.. err i mean Cesare Borgia ;)

EDIT: Also, there were some poorly cropped pixels in the Imola flag, so here's a corrected version without black lines in some edges
 
Last edited:

Funchi

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I'm a bit late, later today i'll post about the Republic of Ancona on which i've worked with @Van Kasten sorry if i'm a bit late but had an exam to do :D