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Bugnr01

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Sep 11, 2014
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I am comeing to pdx games via hoi (hoi2 was my first pdx game). The start and end date in hoi is more or less clear to my, but im curious why we are playing eu from 1444 to 1821.
 
1444 is the year of the Battle of Varna between Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, which paved the way for the latter to become a superpower. 1444 is also a few years before 1453, which is a pivotal year in European history, being both the year of end of the Hundred Years War in favour of France and the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople. By starting the game a little before these events, the player might have the possibility to change history. If the game were set any earlier, the mechanics would not as accurately represent the largely feudal society up to the 14th century, and if it started later players would have less scope for altering history and the balance of Europe would be already railroaded to favour Ottomans and France (amongst others), as you can see at later start dates.

1821 is the towards the end of the late Modern Age (which some historians in the real world put at the Congress of Vienna of 1815), and thus a good ending point for a game that is about the Modern Age. Also, 1821 is the year of death of Napoleon and of the independence of most Spanish territories in the Americas, which ended European colonisation and domination of the Americas. Spiritually and in practical terms, it is the end of what EU4 tries to be about.
 
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1821 is the towards the end of the late Modern Age (which some historians in the real world put at the Congress of Vienna of 1815), and thus a good ending point for a game that is about the Modern Age. Also, 1821 is the year of death of Napoleon and of the independence of most Spanish territories in the Americas, which ended European colonisation and domination of the Americas. Spiritually and in practical terms, it is the end of what EU4 tries to be about.

Generally correct. My only complaint with them ending in 1821 is that there's currently 15 years of history that is untouched in any Paradox game, as Victoria 2 starts in 1836. I'd have preferred EU4 or the next Victoria game to cover those 15 years (Probably when they make Victoria 3), but that's mainly just personal reasons and not what would actually be good.
 
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Two additional points:

First, 1444 allows players to try to survive as the Eastern Roman Empire, that most romantic of doomed causes. :)

Second, Paradox likes switching around its start dates. EU1 started in 1492; EU2 began in 1419 (I can't for the life of me remember why); EU3 originally began in 1453 which caused much sadness on these boards, and was eventually extended to 1399 (again, no idea). The end date doesn't change, though.
 
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The game begins one day after the battle of varna. If it would start a week earlier we would have a Polish-Hungarian Union in the middle of a war against the Ottomans...

End date is a bit strange though

That would actually be a more interesting start date. Maybe Ottomans get crushed and never rise.

Bring back England starting at war with France too.
 
That would actually be a more interesting start date. Maybe Ottomans get crushed and never rise.
"Maybe"? Reliably. The Ottomans would not be able to have their historically-sized army.

Bring back England starting at war with France too.
Why? England wasn't at war with France on the 11th of November 1444. There was a truce between them at the time.
 
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Two additional points:

First, 1444 allows players to try to survive as the Eastern Roman Empire, that most romantic of doomed causes. :)

Second, Paradox likes switching around its start dates. EU1 started in 1492; EU2 began in 1419 (I can't for the life of me remember why); EU3 originally began in 1453 which caused much sadness on these boards, and was eventually extended to 1399 (again, no idea). The end date doesn't change, though.

1419 may have been because a city fell to the English in the Hundred Years War or a nriot in Prauge where they threw the people in the town hall out the window. 1399 was the year Henry IV (the first Lancaster King) was crowned.
 
Second, Paradox likes switching around its start dates. EU1 started in 1492; EU2 began in 1419 (I can't for the life of me remember why); EU3 originally began in 1453 which caused much sadness on these boards, and was eventually extended to 1399 (again, no idea). The end date doesn't change, though.

1419 marked the start of The Hussite Wars.
1399 marked The Battle of Vorskla River, and thus failure of Lithuania to subjugate all of Rus'; but I doubt it is the reason.
 
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EU3's 1399 start date was the occasion of the coronation of King Henry IV of England following the deposition, imprisonment, and forced abdication of King Richard II.
 
I would have gone with 1500 or something instead, after the reformation. I think that most of the stuff up til then are better represented by ck2, even colonialism was relatively minor before then. And a eu4 starting in 1500 would be a lot more deterministic than the 1444 start.

But I'm more hoping that future istallations of EU bring back support for start dates again (bookmarks that is not the date by date thing), then I could start in 1500 and the people who prefer 1444 could start there. Though I would still like to see crusader kings extended to 1500 so we could get the Borgia and Machiavelli in that.
 
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EU4 has specific-date bookmarks as well as the manual free-for-all date selector.

Neither facility works terribly well, of course, because maintaining them in the face of mechanical changes is a nuisance.
 
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Generally correct. My only complaint with them ending in 1821 is that there's currently 15 years of history that is untouched in any Paradox game, as Victoria 2 starts in 1836. I'd have preferred EU4 or the next Victoria game to cover those 15 years (Probably when they make Victoria 3), but that's mainly just personal reasons and not what would actually be good.

the problem with those 15 years is its really hard to properly represent the balance of power inside victoria. its like EU3 starting in 1399. Whereas 1836 is a much more logical start date, and a lot of interesting things were going on such as the rebellion in Spain

you could probably do them in eu4, but you'd have to put some way to have a proto-industry because several countries had already begun such as UK and belgium.
 
1444 is the year of the Battle of Varna between Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, which paved the way for the latter to become a superpower.

So there should be something hardcoded into the game as one of the starting scenarios with this taking place. Would be good for Byzantine fans too since it gives them a few years respite as the Ottomans and Hungary, probably alonside Austria, duke it out.
 
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So there should be something hardcoded into the game as one of the starting scenarios with this taking place. Would be good for Byzantine fans too since it gives them a few years respite as the Ottomans and Hungary, probably alonside Austria, duke it out.
The historical outcome of the Battle of Varna is a crushing defeat for Christendom, with the Ottoman army (estimate: 60k) considerably outnumbering the army of King Władysław (estimate: 20-30k).

In-game, you cannot support a 60k army with the Ottomans' starting assets (the cost of going that far above force limit will strain even the Ottomans' starting economy to breaking point), while Poland + Bohemia + Hungary + Wallachia + Lithuania can support 80k between them without even going over force limit.
Well, Poland should have a CB restore union with Hungary.
That's one way to screw both game balance and historicity, sure.
 
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