France vs Germany in HOI4

[ClothCoat]

In HOI3 fighting off Germany as France is extremely difficult and only taken up by very experienced strategists, and even then they usually have to wait for Soviet intervention. However I've read that in real life the Battle of France was a little closer than is shown in HIO3 (where Germany usually just rolls over France). In real life was the battle between the two closer than is shown in game and should HOI4 make it a little easier to play as France?

 

[Alex_brunius]

In HOI3 fighting off Germany as France is extremely difficult and only taken up by very experienced strategists, and even then they usually have to wait for Soviet intervention. However I've read that in real life the Battle of France was a little closer than is shown in HIO3 (where Germany usually just rolls over France). In real life was the battle between the two closer than is shown in game and should HOI4 make it a little easier to play as France?

This problem is one of making the game fun to play for allied Majors.

The game would lose a lot of it's historical feeling and fun factor if half of the times I play as Soviet or USA the main enemy (Germany) is defeated before I can even join the war... So I wasted hours preparing for a war that never happens... not so Fun.

Thus the game needs to be balanced in such a way that Germany can reliably win at least 95-99% of the times against France when you have both as AI.



In reality on paper both sides were pretty even. But there was a was a huge difference in doctrine and experience in how to handle warfare concepts such as combined arms and tank/air warfare.

 

[Aleesboto]

I'd like this too. From what I've read it was a bit closer than it seems just looking at it.

 

[Klausewitz]

In HOI3 fighting off Germany as France is extremely difficult and only taken up by very experienced strategists, and even then they usually have to wait for Soviet intervention. However I've read that in real life the Battle of France was a little closer than is shown in HIO3 (where Germany usually just rolls over France). In real life was the battle between the two closer than is shown in game and should HOI4 make it a little easier to play as France?

In reality France might have been able to hold out longer.
But that still would not solve the problem that France army was small, ill-equipped for anything but a static defence (though they managed to introduce changes during Fall Gelb und Fall Rot to rectify that) and hoped to refight WWI (though with them as the Germans, staying on the defence and forcing the Germans to attack as the French did in WWI).

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

Part of the issue with France falling so fast was they never expected the attack through the forest in Luxembourg, so they got surrounded and destroyed by Germany panzer units, which were all grouped together in groups, while allied tanks were spread out for their primary role of infantry support.

However, just as the German human player can look back on history and know things, so too can the allied human player of France, thus it would make it much harder for Germany to overwhelmingly crush France as Germany did in real life.

Thus you basically need to nerf France and Britain's production capability 1936-1939 in order for Germany to win the battle in France, otherwise there is no war, and thus no game.

 

[scroggin]

In reality France might have been able to hold out longer.
But that still would not solve the problem that France army was small, ill-equipped for anything but a static defence (though they managed to introduce changes during Fall Gelb und Fall Rot to rectify that) and hoped to refight WWI (though with them as the Germans, staying on the defence and forcing the Germans to attack as the French did in WWI).

My understanding was that that French considerably outnumbered the forces Germany sent against them but they had poor moral poor leadership poor doctrines and were outmanovered. I know that monty spoke about being quite shocked at the state of the French army after visiting the maginot area before the battle of france. A bit of a sad state when you consider that in Napoleons day they were considered to be the finest Army in the world.

I don't like the way some people slag the French as if they could never fight. Their army was just in a bad state because of the way it was misused in WWI and then poorly led since then.

 

[Augustus93]

My understanding was that that French considerably outnumbered the forces Germany sent against them but they had poor moral poor leadership poor doctrines and were outmanovered. I know that monty spoke about being quite shocked at the state of the French army after visiting the maginot area before the battle of france. A bit of a sad state when you consider that in Napoleons day they were considered to be the finest Army in the world.

I don't like the way some people slag the French as if they could never fight. Their army was just in a bad state because of the way it was misused in WWI and then poorly led since then.

Well you can't really go looking back at history, because then the Italians would have had the best army in the world (like the Roman Empire) and Swedish military would be able to go up against Russia.

 

[Augustus93]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Germans used their tanks and airforce as separate branches of the military while the French used at least their tanks as infantry support (I don't know how they used their airforce).

 

[Alex_brunius]

My understanding was that that French considerably outnumbered the forces Germany sent against them but they had poor moral poor leadership poor doctrines and were outmanovered.

According to wikipedia it was actually very even in terms of numbers of men, tanks, guns and aircraft overall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_france

I know that monty spoke about being quite shocked at the state of the French army after visiting the maginot area before the battle of france. A bit of a sad state when you consider that in Napoleons day they were considered to be the finest Army in the world.

They were still regarded by many as having the most advanced or strongest army in the world in the interwar years. But so many resources were tied up in the Maginot line.

 

[Less]

If you wanted to simulate the war between France and Germany, you'd put them on equal material footing (if not a good bit of advantage to France) but force the French player to play blindfolded by dictating his orders to a 10 year old child in charge of carrying out the orders. Or something along those lines. The point I'm trying to make is that the French failures were primarily from their command structure and doctrine, which is basically impossible to replicate in game since all nations are played by a player or AI who has god-like omniscience and foreknowledge of how to fight a war and that a war is coming at all.

I'd like to see the odds evened up a bit but it's probably quite impossible to design things so as to generally play out historically along with having historic strengths, because WW2 itself arose out of a series of very unlikely events.

 

[mursolini]

Battle of France may have been close, but that was because it was rather short and France was sitting on big stock of equipment that it built up during 1919-1940.
Germany, on the other hand, had a much shorter time to prepare, but alreday managed to match France in terms of equipment and greatly outmatch in terms of airforce.

France would also hit a real problem of needing to retool it`s production lines mid-war since it`s major tanks were old, and their design was stretched to the limit, while Germany, since beggining of 1940 would mostly produce Pz3 and Pz4 new models of which, were clearly superior and had far greater upradability than French tanks, like R-35, H-35 and S-35.
Germany also had far bigger population, and almost twice larger economy.

Unless France get`s serious help from GB, it should be very uphill battle the longer the war goes.

They were still regarded by many as having the most advanced or strongest army in the world in the interwar years. But so many resources were tied up in the Maginot line.

Well, it definitely was such at least till 1938 or more probably 1939, after which Germans were arguably better in terms of organisation, and equipment as a lot of French equipment was old, artilery in particular, while German one was newer mostly.

Or maybe it actually was Soviet army for large part of pre-war period.

 

[Jorlaan]

It is possible to have France generally fall at its historical speed without needlessly crippling them by making them artificially weaker.
The HPP mod for HoI3 addresses this problem by adding a lot of ships to the build que right off the bat. Historically France focused very heavily on their navy, so the mod reflects that.
This is one way that HoI IV can make France weak without cheesy AI exploits or nerfs.

 

[bruebottom]

Hearing the news that the German panzer divisions had crossed the Sedan and that the French commander, who's troops had fought a battle on the Dyle line on the 5th day of the German attack into Belgium and withdrew those troops that night, the BEF commander turned the BEF around and headed to the coast to evacuate it to England.

Orders for the French Northern Army and the BEF were issued to attack the panzer divions in northern France, but these were not carried out. Meanwhile, the BEF continued its march to the coast as the panzer divisons raced westward to the channel, thus cutting off the French Northern Army from France.

Nerfing the French so that Germany has an easy victory seems acceptable, because reproducing a general's insubordinate action or have a BEF force route off the map of France would cause me to rage quit as the French commander. As a German commander I do not want to get stuck fighting in France waiting for Russia to attack in the east.

France was lost due to it's ineffective commanders and not it's equipment or tactics. This is not to say that the French army could of held out in the long run, but the swift adavance of the panzer divisions across norther France created choas in the upper levels of the French command structure. Unless PI can reproduce this effect in HOI IV, then France needs to be nerfed.

 

[BBBD316]

The HPP mod is really good, allowing the player a lot of options whilst mostly following the script for the AI.

 

[shri]

As Alex_Brunis pointed out-
Material wise, Allied (French + British + Low countries - Belgium, Netherlands) outnumbered and outgunned Germans in terms of Men, Tanks, Guns etc also French Tanks were well armored (but slow and lacking radios and distributed in penny packets as infantry support and lacked AT & AA guns support staff), similarly BEF was a very professional but small army (best army in terms of mobility- trucks etc).
The problem was in Doctrine, Air (Luftwaffe played a key role as Britain held back its airforce and French airforce was feeble), Combined arms tactics, Radios and also exceptionally gifted commanders like- Guderian.

Also Maginot line they wasted lot of material. French Generals were too old, average age was near 68, German generals were younger & fitter and lead from the front , avg age of generals in Battle of France for Germany was near 53. This made French Generals too cautious and too WW1 minded (long artillery barrage, creeping barrage, slow and steady infantry push etc).

P.S:- As player you can stalemate Germany - gamey way, extend maginot line upwards, level 4-5 forts and your entire armor and British troops in north means you can hold out.

 

[EmperorTojo]

An idea is that, maybe, if Germany is player controlled then France could be 'buffed' to its historical potential (Some trigger that gives AI additional troops?) If they are both AI, it should balance so that Germany wins. If France is the player, I suppose it should be the same. If I were to play as Germany, I'd sort of like a challange to break the french lines, and then have a cakewalk. All of this sounds bit complicated though so lol.

 

[GrafKeks]

An idea is that, maybe, if Germany is player controlled then France could be 'buffed' to its historical potential (Some trigger that gives AI additional troops?) If they are both AI, it should balance so that Germany wins. If France is the player, I suppose it should be the same. If I were to play as Germany, I'd sort of like a challange to break the french lines, and then have a cakewalk. All of this sounds bit complicated though so lol.

Smart AI > cheating AI.
Although the hard difficulty should always feature a cheating AI, as an AI can't be that smart ( without being horribly expensive ).

 

[Kung Zog]

The Battle of France was a really close call. Germany won for two reasons:

1. The Dyle plan. Without any real pre-war cooperation between Belgium and France a defense plan so deep into Belgium is not suitable. A defense line closer to France leaving Belgium out of it would be better and avoid the early encirclements. Belgium chose neutrality when they ended the Franco-Belgian Accord of 1920 in 1936.

2. The lack of counterattacks by France.

These issues are solved in a timeline called "A Blunted Sickle" which I sadly can't link due to forum regulations.

 

[adam_grif]

In reality France might have been able to hold out longer.
But that still would not solve the problem that France army was small, ill-equipped for anything but a static defence (though they managed to introduce changes during Fall Gelb und Fall Rot to rectify that) and hoped to refight WWI (though with them as the Germans, staying on the defence and forcing the Germans to attack as the French did in WWI).

In reality the German plan was to punch through to the Northern coast line and bludgeon their way into France. This would have played straight into the Franco-British planning. The Western Allies enjoyed numerical superiority, naval superiority, industrial superiority and tank superiority. The German air-advantage would shrink to nothing by 1941 when American orders started being filled and the British war industry kicked into full gear. Outnumbered, outgunned, starving and short on resources, even if constantly trading with the USSR, the Germans were doomed to failure unless they could break through in 1940.

Then, after Fall Weiss, during the winter months, a new, bold plan was introduced, put forward by (IIRC) Manstein and Guderian. However, if there was a strategic reserve ready to put into action after the breakthrough in the Ardennes, the broadly unprotected flank of the German Salient could have been cut off, and instead of the Franco-British-Belgian forces being encircled, something like 15 armored and motorized divisions could have been counter-encircled by the allies, a blow from which the German war effort would probably never recover.

The idea of inevitable German success in Fall Gelb and Fall Rot is a myth. The Allies had a serious chance of completely halting the Germans. Their grand strategy was to exhaust Germany and overcome them with vast material superiority, a plan which is guaranteed to work if the Germans cannot drive the Allies off the continent. Actually, that plan still works even if they do drive the allies off the continent, but that's another discussion...

 

[Kung Zog]

Indeed Adam, it was a real lucky close call.