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The purpose of this thread is to compile my own suggestions for how to improve France (a nation currently portrayed anachronistically as being a homogeneous blob) in the hope that some of these ideas may find their way into the game.
To start, I am going to say that this is in no way a buff or a nerf to France, but rather an overhaul. The main challenge I have faced in compiling these suggestions, and the biggest question for whoever at Paradox reads this to consider: How do we make France more interesting, immersive and historically accurate, but also bring plenty of challenges at the same time?
With that question in mind, I’ll go through a comprehensive list of the changes that I am proposing in posts throughout this thread, complete with my reasoning for each change.
NB:Everything I post in this thread may be subject to change when necessary.
While the 1.25 patch has indeed given France a much-needed facelift to better reflect its historical provinces and balance out the changes to the British Isles, there is still room for more improvements to the map if the EU4 team are willing to do so.
I'm not going to go too in-depth here as the other aspects of my suggestions are more important, but this is what a revised France could look like (note this will be subject to change):
In total, 12 new provinces. Most of the changes were done to give France’s subjects (which I’ll cover later on in Part II) a better historical representation of the land they held. Some large provinces were also broken up and a few provinces given to surrounding nations to balance out the changes in France.
I tried to be as conservative as possible with the changes and avoided changing borders too drastically. This is merely a guideline for what the EU4 team could include were they to revisit this region again.
Seeing as you guys at Paradox really like maps to go alongside suggestions, here are some useful ones for reference that show France and the surrounding nations in the 15th century:
The Lordship of Albret, although less significant than France’s other appanages, was included because it allowed for better representation of England’s Gascon holdings near the end of the Hundred Years War. Bordeaux and Labourd will now be divided by a French appanage, making England’s hold more untenable. Albret will also be represented by a new tag who will be an appanage of France, for reasons I’ll discuss in Part II.
Although by 1444 Bearn had become the chief residence of the counts of Foix, the county of Foix was still considered to be a separate entity to Bearn despite being ruled together for decades. It also had a strategic position on the foothills of the Pyrenees.
Carcassonne was added to split up the unreasonably large province of Toulouse. Given the complicated history of this part of the Languedoc, from its role in the Albigensian Crusade as a fortified stronghold for the Cathars, it is the only province I added that would be owned by France in 1444.
Carcassonne had long had a history for being a strategically placed fortified bastion; its fortifications were consistently expanded on and even today it is regarded as being the largest walled city in Europe. In 1355 the English attempted to take the city but were unsuccessful. Although after 1659 its strategic importance diminished, it still held importance as an economic centre for the textile industry.
La Marche was one of the historical provinces of France, and its merger with the province of Limousin made the latter province look like a sore thumb. In 1444 La Marche was owned by the Counts of Armagnac (whose holdings were historically all over the place; they also held the county of Rodez (Rouergue in EU4) in 1444), which is the main reason why it becomes a new province.
Forez was yet another province added for its historical significance as a county under the ownership of the Dukes of Bourbon in 1444. The Lyonnais (in the royal domain) was a smaller region than is currently portrayed in EU4 and so the split attempts to reflect this. The province is given livestock due to the capital, Montbrison’s blue cheese.
Toulon was one of the most important cities in southern France throughout the time period, playing a major role in France’s rise as a naval power. In 1494 Charles VIII of France began the construction of a military port there, and was again expanded on during the reign of Louis XIV.
It deliberately starts with a lower development, as it wasn’t as important in 1444. Perhaps a flavour event should simulate the growth of Toulon if France owns it in the 1490’s (suggested by @mechanical_Critter).
Mâcon (or the Mâconnais) was added to split up the large province of Charolais and also to give Burgundy proper a slight buff. It was an important regional centre in the south of Burgundy on the border with the duchy of Savoy.
Blois was a major settlement on the river Loire and was under the control of the dukes of Orléans in 1444. It is known for its iconic Chateau, which was the residence of several French kings.
This province could be added to split up Franche-Comte, and with good reason. Firstly, Besancon was closely connected to the Holy Roman Empire, having been designated a Free Imperial City (although the territory it controlled was so miniscule that it may be better to just show the area as part of Burgundy, as they effectively influenced and surrounded the city). It is separate from the Franche-Comte province already on the map, which should be renamed Dole (the capital of Franche-Comte during Burgundian ownership).
Vermandois has always been wrongly represented in EU4, having never been shown to be a part of Burgundy despite the fact that historically it was. The Treaty of Arras in 1435 gave Vermandois to Burgundy in exchange for their help against the English during the HYW. This should be fixed, with Vermandois finally being added back in under the ownership of Burgundy.
Valois on the other hand is moved further east to better resemble the county of Valois, which in 1444 is an exclave of the duchy of Orleans.
11. Évreux (Capital: Évreux) Development: 11 (4/4/3) Trade Goods: Livestock (suggested by @Metroidkirby ) - Owner: England
England had to get at least one province, right? Évreux was another important settlement in Normandy, plus it had its own county and diocese.
Finistére is the name for the department that covered most of the historical provinces of Leon and Cornouaille which came into use after the French Revolution, and didn’t even exist for most of the timeline. The same could be said for Armor too. So Finistére’s name should be changed to Leon with the capital in Brest, and a new province of Cornouaille added. It has glass due to the “Quimper faience”, which was technically a kind of pottery, but since glass is already a widespread trade good in Europe I opted to use that instead.
For a bit of flavour, its trade good could change to Chinaware through an event in the 1700’s for the province (suggested by @mechanical_Critter).
In Part II I'll discuss the new nations being added (or rather re-added) in this potential overhaul.
I didn’t originally intend to create this part of the suggestion, however I found that it was necessary in order to clear up some technicalities with the map, such as where forts would go and what terrain type each new province would have.
The previous part is being subject to updates over the coming days; as with all suggestion threads the input of other users has been invaluable in helping with the thread’s construction.
So without further ado, here’s some more details regarding the map.
Foix - Hills, due to its position near the Pyrenees.
Carcassonne - Hills, due to the land rising near the Pyrenees - Toulouse should be changed to have either woods or grasslands.
La Marche - Woods (which Limousin also has).
Forez - Hills due to its proximity to the Massif Central.
Toulon - Hills - it’s close to the Alps, and somewhat mountainous, with a few plateaus and mountain ridges, and all of Provence proper has hills anyway.
Mâcon - either Farmlands or Grasslands - much of the Maconnais is a region where wine can be grown.
Blois - Could have Woods due to Touraine and Orleans both having them, however I would argue for either grassland or farmland. The River Loire bisects the province, and it was near the heart of the Loire Valley wine region.
Besançon - Hills. The city is surrounded by them, and in the east of the province they are abundant.
Vermandois - Farmlands - since it takes up most of Valois’ original borders.
Évreux - Either grassland or farmlands, as the surrounding provinces all have either of the two.
Cornouaille - Grasslands. Not much reasoning for this, other than Finistere province originally had them.
Areas.
I don’t know if this has been unique to just the last few updates, but more of the map changes seem geared around looking after the borders of areas (amalgamations of roughly 3-5 provinces strewn across the map), rather than trying to add a uniform number of provinces to every region. (Case and point Galicia, whose province count was increased from 1 to 4 in 1.28 almost certainly to justify giving it an area of its own).
Here’s just one proposal for how the revised map would handle areas:
With this proposal, 3 new areas are added: Haute-Loire (comprising the eastern half of the Loire Valley down to Bourbonnais), Jura (comprising all of Franche-Comte and the Maconnais, the areas closest to the Alps and the Beaujolais hills) and Pyrenees (Bearn, Foix and Armagnac).
These are the other main changes I made, along with my explanation as to why:
Nantais to Loire area. This was done to compensate for the addition of a sixth province to Brittany. It would make sense to include Nantais in this situation as the mouth of the Loire is entirely within the province. Also, a good part of Nantais is in the Loire Valley wine region (there’s a map of it in the links at the bottom).
Nemours to Champagne. The historical province of Ile-de-France never bordered Burgundy, with (most of) Nemours province being entirely part of Champagne. Nemours itself however was still in the Ile-de-France.
Bourbonnais taken out of Massif Central. I’ll delve into why I did this further in a forthcoming part on Occitania, but for now I’ve linked a map at the bottom of this post of the extent of the area of Occitania where the language was spoken. Note that Moulins, along with most of Bourbonnais, is outside the region.
Other than that, I tried to be as conservative with the areas as possible once again and only made a few significant changes from the original.
-Loire Valley wine region.
-Historical Champagne.
- Occitan speaking areas.
Development.
In the previous sub-part, although I did clarify what development the new provinces would have, I failed to make clear what changes would occur to the old provinces.
Note to @neondt , the exact value of development isn’t important, as these are just approximations. In most cases, a province that was split has had its development slightly reduced to compensate for the added development.
Leon (formerly Finistere): 10 -> 8 (-2)
Bordeaux (formerly Aquitaine): 21 -> 19 (-2)
Labourd: 10 -> 9 (-1)
Orleans: 17 -> 16 (-1)
Marseille (formerly Provence): 21 -> 18 (-3)
Dole (formerly Franche-Comte): 14 -> 11 (-3)
Valois: 14 -> 12 (-2)
Limousin: 10 -> 9 (-1)
Lyonnais: 20 -> 18 (-2)
Bearn: 12 -> 11 (-1)
Dijonnais: 20 -> 19 (-1)
The rest remain unchanged from where they were.
Other Notes.
No changes have been made to the trade map, however just to clarify:
-Foix will be in the Bordeaux trade node.
-Forez will be in the Genoa trade node.
-Vermandois will be in the Champagne trade node.
Also about forts:
-Narbonne's fort could be shifted to Carcassonne, as I mentioned before it was more strategically important.
Other than that, I'd keep all forts where they are. There might be a case for making Blois a fort, but I believe Orleans was more important in that regard, as it was at the northernmost point of the Loire and thus was the quickest way across the river, which had few bridges in the medieval era.
This concludes Part I.2. Hopefully this helped to clear up any previous technicalities, so that we can finally move on to the good stuff, in which I’ll be talking about the new nations to be put on the map in Part II.
Wait, France’s subjects? Weren’t those removed for a reason? Yes, but bear with me as I explain why I’m bringing this up.
Background.
In my opinion, France is one of the least accurately represented European nations in the game (Switzerland, the Papal States and the Livonian Order being among the many contenders). This has largely been made more of an issue by the removal of its vassals in the Common Sense patch, once considered to be the staple feature of playing in France.
But from a gameplay perspective, at the time their removal was well justified; the vassal swarm simply made France too powerful, and they didn’t really hold much value before they met their end with the use of a few hundred diplomatic points. In short, they were a bad aftertaste from the days of EU3.
However, the game has moved on a lot since the last sixteen patches. With the recent addition of new subject types like Tributaries, it would not be impossible to resurrect France’s subjects, but this time apply a new subject type to them in order to make them feel polished and feel balanced.
For the sake of clarity, we’ll name this potential new subject type ‘Appanage’ as it best describes what France’s subordinate states were. I’ll discuss the unique aspects of this subject type in Parts III and IV, coming soon.
Why not just use the Nobility estate?
The current situation is that the game opts to give partial representation to France’s subjects by using the Nobility estate, however there is a major issue with this:
With the current system, there is no consolidation of the French state like what historically happened.
Most other kingdoms in Europe have the nobility estate, so France’s situation doesn’t feel unique at all.
The Nobility are already a part of your country, and there’s not much incentive to revoke estates’ provinces because the nobility don’t actually pose a threat to you unless they reach 100% influence.
Furthermore, until 1.26 the estates themselves were locked behind the Cossacks DLC, so you had the same experience managing your realm as a more centralised one up until recently if you didn’t have the DLC.
So I don’t believe that estates, in their abstract nature, are able to solve the ahistorical representation of France without a major change to internal politics, but that could be a whole new suggestion of its own.
There’s also a few other issues:
Estate distribution is quasi-random; France tends to have a high proportion of their state development under the control of nobles, which seems accurate on the surface, but that’s mainly because some provinces will always have nobility no matter what because of the history files. However, this randomness means that it fails in truly representing the historical situation.
The estate system in its current state means that interactions with the nobility are very limited, usually consisting of clicking a few buttons to balance out their loyalty, influence and land. Whereas in reality these interactions defined the struggle between the French monarchs and the remnants of a disappearing feudal age.
You can’t play AS the nobility. This was probably the biggest drawback to the removal of the old subjects, even if they were broken. And so the gameplay feels much shallower in a region which before the early modern era was as fractured as the HRE, with almost no unique mechanics to speak of (unlike the HRE).
Some historical context.
To understand the role France’s appanages played in the history of the ‘ancién regime’ we need to consider the situation of France in 1444.
To call it a ‘centralised’ nation-state is a far cry from reality: while the French king did hold sway over most of the defined boundaries of the Kingdom of France, there still existed a myriad of appanages each ruled by their own Counts and Dukes. Around half of the territory of France was under the domaine royal or Royal Domain, ruled by the Capetians up until 1328, and thereafter by the Valois who are ruling France in 1444.
From the ascent of the Capetians to the 15th century the monarchs gradually gained more territories, expanding their realm from an area around Paris to nearly half of the country. However, the system of appanages originating from the Middle Ages prevented French kings from fully consolidating the entire kingdom, and could also create dangerous threats like the Duchy of Burgundy, which in theory was subordinate to France but by 1444 had grown its borders northward to pose a serious threat to them. Also, many appanages saw themselves as more distanced from the French crown, with many especially in the south of France being de facto independent such as the county of Foix.
It wasn’t until the mid-1500s that the French monarchs were able to successfully unite their lands into one homogenous kingdom, and some states survived as late as 1589, so it definitely had an impact during the game’s timeline on the historical development of France.
Once again I’ve linked a few maps below showing the development of France during the Capetian era:
In order to better represent France as it was historically I propose to break the kingdom down into more playable subjects once again, all but 1 of which are existing tags:
New Tags:
1. Duchy of Orléans
Provinces: 3 (Orleanais (capital), Blois, Valois), has core on Touraine Culture: Francien
Orléans was historically one of the most important appanages in France. Not only did it control the cities of Orleans and Blois on the rich Loire Valley, but also since the duchy’s creation in 1344 the title was bestowed upon the eldest brother of the French king (which is why they were known as the princes du sang). It also controlled the county of Valois north-east of Paris. Though it met its end early on in 1497 with the rise of Louis XII (who was previously Duke of Orleans) to the French throne.
Considering it already has a unique National Idea set in-game, it should definitely be included if the region were ever to be revised.
2. County of Armagnac
Provinces: 3 (Armagnac (capital), Rouergue, La Marche) Culture: Gascon
The county of Armagnac had several far-flung territories in 1444, in parts of central and southern France, even acquiring Nemours later on. It reached its apogee in the late 14th and early 15th century but by 1444 was in the middle of a gradual decline. Even still, the counts held a large amount of land relative to others, and the fact that the tag already exists further supports its inclusion.
Also, some interesting info relating to Armagnac’s rebellious tendencies:
In 1442 there were negotiations between Armagnac and England relating to a marriage between king Henry VI and one of Jean IV’s daughters. Although the negotiations were abandoned after threats from Charles VII, Armagnac had still considered allying with the English side.
Jean IV acknowledged the king of Castile as his overlord in 1425. He then took part in the failed ‘Praguerie’ revolt against Charles VII, and afterwards Charles demanded Jean to renounce his claim that the king of Castile was his overlord. But, he refused, and he was eventually imprisoned in Carcassonne in 1443. Until the end of his reign in 1450 the county’s lands were ruled by a council of nobles, even after Jean was pardoned in 1446 (so a Regency Council could be ruling Armagnac in 1444).
3. Duchy of Bourbon
Provinces: 2 (Bourbonnais (capital), Forez), has cores on Auvergne and La Marche Culture: Francien
The dukes of Bourbon were among the most important in the patchwork of feudal states, despite not being the largest. In 1327, the duchy of Bourbon was created for the eldest son of the French king. The Bourbons, unlike the Armagnacs, had a history of being loyal to the Valois rulers of France up until their annexation into the French royal domain in 1527. Their extra cores on territory they historically ruled over at one point or another can allow them to consolidate a large power base in central France, and maybe even get their dynasty on the French throne (like what historically happened).
They also had a strong claim to Auvergne, which at the time had 4 components: the Duchy of Auvergne, the Dauphinate of Auvergne, the Bishopric of Clermont and the County of Auvergne. Bourbon could claim the first two titles, while the County was ruled by separate Counts who resisted the Bourbon influence. The Bishopric of Clermont was known for its rivalry with the counts of Auvergne, however I didn’t include them as the territory they controlled was very small in comparison to the County.
4. County of Auvergne
Provinces: 1 (Auvergne (capital)) Culture: Occitan
This tag, if it were added, would represent the County of Auvergne (NOT the Duchy, which at the time was under the control of Bourbon). Although there are a few reasons to make them separate from Bourbon in the timeline, if the goal is to minimise the number of tags added, then Auvergne can be a part of Bourbon. Otherwise, Auvergne may make for a very challenging start. Not only do they have France to contend with, but also Bourbon who has a core on their only province and is more powerful than them. In 1444, the County was ruled by Bertrand V de la Tour.
The County of Foix for most of its history remained more independent of French control than the other subjects, due to it being sheltered by the Pyrenees against an invasion from the south. The Counts would play an important role in the history of the region, acquiring Narbonnais (in 1447), Roussillon and Cerdagne later on, and also briefly ruled as kings of Navarre. They were absorbed into the royal domain at a later point than most other subjects, in 1589 when Henry III of Navarre ascended to the French throne as Henry IV of France.
6. Lordship of Albret
^ (a design similar to this should be its flag).
Provinces: 1 (Albret (capital)) Culture: Gascon
Albret’s inclusion as a tag at first doesn’t seem all that justified; it was not a rich land by any means, mostly situated in the Landes forest, and its status as a lordship also makes it seem less significant.
However, the lordship played an important role in various conflicts. In the Hundred Years’ War, it at first fought on the English side, but then switched to the French side after a secret agreement in 1368. Albret was also the centre of the “Mad War”, fought between 1485 and 1488, brought about in part by the ambitions of the Lord of Albret, Alain “the Great”, to acquire Brittany.
The Albret family itself would also rise to unexpected prominence during the timeline with the acquisition of Navarre, and so I was led to put this tag on the map. It is the only completely new tag that would be made playable in 1444.
Albret will be another very challenging country, but its access to the sea means that it does have a few options for expansion. Albret starts under Charles II of Albret in 1444, whose heir (Alain “the Great”) should have a very high monarch skill.
With these new tags added, here’s what the setup would look like alongside the revised map. Each nation’s flag is used to help distinguish who owns what:
This concludes Part II; in the next part I’ll be going over my ideas for a unique subject type, as well as government type, the Appanage, for these minor nations.
So this part was a long time coming; I actually have part 4 in progress, but I haven’t had the time or motivation to post more until now. Thanks to @neondt for including this thread in this week’s dev diary! Anyways, here's Part 3.
Edit: Also note that "Appanage" is merely a potential name for the subject type. Some users (@JSparks101 etc.) have pointed out that other names for it such as "Fief" are more accurate, so that's something to keep in mind.
So as I mentioned before, it’s entirely possible to create a new subject type to represent France’s subjects, and it should not be ruled out as a solution to the problems that plagued the pre-Common Sense setup. I have identified some of the main issues of the old system, which the new subject type would aim to fix:
They took up all of France’s diplomatic relation slots, incapacitating them diplomatically and making the vassals an annoyance for a France player.
The vassals’ armies made France much more annoying to fight against, having to constantly chase down small stacks. Not to mention they wouldn’t peace out until you beat France itself.
They were too easy to just annex and forget about early on using diplomatic mana.
There weren’t many options as a vassal. You had to either stick with France and hold out until you got annexed or hope to exploit their weakness in the early game by getting rivals of France to support you.
Here’s how these issues could be tackled:
Appanages shouldn’t take up a diplomatic relation slot. This solves the problem entirely, allowing France to be as decentralised as it wants to without being penalised for it.
Appanages would have different diplomatic relationships to their overlord than a regular vassal, such as not being able to join the overlord’s offensive wars. I go into more detail about this below.
Appanages can’t be annexed directly using diplomatic points. Instead, a separate system of annexing them would be used (see Part IV).
Appanages would have more options available to them making them a worthwhile pick for a challenging campaign.
How Appanages would function.
Appanages would function as a mix of vassal, tributary and ally. They:
Would not be called into France’s offensive wars
Would not take up a diplomatic relation slot
Can’t have war declared on them by France
Can call in France as a co-belligerent if they are attacked by a foreign power
Can’t call France into their offensive wars
Are called into France’s defensive wars (but they can refuse similar to an ally - if they do they suffer the same penalties as an ally not joining)
Would have relative power calculated by their own strength plus those supporting their independence vs France and not the strength of all appanages - prevents AI appanages all being rebellious at the start of the game
Would be able to form alliances with other appanages
Would be able to declare war on other appanages (but France through an event would be able to step in, and demand an end to the war or to let them keep fighting)
The Appanage subject type would have a max government rank of 1 (duchy).
They also would pay tribute to France in the same way as tributaries. This partially represents the taille, the national tax that was made permanent in 1439 to fund the first standing army. Before this, the French monarchs had been expected to survive on the revenues of the royal domain, but after it was made permanent the taille became a huge source of income for the kingdom, totaling roughly half its income in the 1570s and was a huge boon to France’s wars across the continent.
There’s also another key aspect of the Appanage subject type that would be different from regular vassals: they would be able to enter into Royal Marriages with other nations. This is not just historically accurate but also ties in nicely to the system of annexing said appanages (see Part IV).
The nations that would have the Appanage subject type in 1444 are as follows:
For one, Burgundy was practically independent of France in all but name. The duke of Burgundy, Philippe III in 1435 styled himself ‘Grand Duke of the West’, and furthermore Burgundy’s influence was such that it was fighting wars of its own and going against the French monarchs. And it wouldn’t make sense to have France being called into Burgundy’s defensive wars, because the French monarchs were actively trying to undermine Burgundy.
And Provence had a very different history to that of the other French fiefs; although it was within the French sphere of influence throughout history it had belonged to the Catalan house of Barcelona, and then the house of Anjou under its Neapolitan rulers, and finally the house of Valois-Anjou, which was a cadet branch of the house of Valois but nevertheless, I decided to keep Provence independent.
The Appanage government type.
Alongside a unique subject type, there would also be the unique Appanage government type. It would provide the following modifiers (subject to change):
+25% Improve Relations (puts emphasis on conducting diplomacy - I’ll talk about why it will be so important for them in the next part)
-25% National Manpower Modifier
-25% Land Force Limit Modifier (the concept of a standing army was just developing, meaning monarchs often relied on armies from the nobility, including the rulers of appanages - forcelimit and manpower reduction would represent that. It also helps prevent vassal swarm which was a big issue previously due to OPMs base forcelimit)
I also thought about including -25% Mercenary Maintenance Modifier as another bonus, though there is not much historical basis for that.
This was a shorter part this time around, just an introduction to the Appanage. I haven’t discussed some aspects like the subject interactions yet, however I will in the future. In the next part, I will go over a whole new mechanic for France that would re-define the gameplay in the region. Stay tuned!
