Egalitarian/Militarist and Xenophile/Militarist empires

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Elric

Private
13 Badges
Apr 19, 2017
23
0
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
First post here, so let me begin by congratulating the Stellaris devs for the best strategy experience I have had in years. What really sets Stellaris apart from other strategy games is in my opinion the rich empire creation and customization, especially after Utopia and Banks. Having numerous and unique empire setups by mixing and matching all the different ethics, traits and civics really does wonders for the replayability of the game.

That being said, an empire setup I was looking forward to playing is the Fanatic Egalitarian/Militarist a.k.a. the "Democratic Crusaders", named after the A.I. personality that gets assigned to this particular ethics combination. The way I envisioned my game, my empire would strive to scour the galaxy of authoritarian regimes, whether those would abuse their own or foreign species. Any democratic non xenophobe empires would obviously not be targeted, instead the idea being a grand democratic federation of similar minded empires that would persist until the galaxy was free of dictators and tyrants, ensuring eternal democracy (and winning a federation victory). What really makes this playstyle interesting in my opinion is that you can play a militarist empire that is selective about whom to attack, instead of a stereotypical expansionist empire which views everyone as a target sooner or later, plus you can enjoy both the military and diplomatic (federation) game in the same run.

That was the idea anyway, before finding out that pops that belong to the militarist faction get a crippling -25 to their happiness should their empire join any federation, bringing approximately a third of the population in the brink of rebellion. Not only is this their single greatest gripe, but judging from the rest of this faction's issues it is evident that they are all about conquering the whole galaxy by themselves. Needless to say, this is extremely incompatible with the democratic crusaders playstyle and gets even more confusing by the fact that the aforementioned A.I. personality has an inherent +10 federation acceptance modifier.

Another playstyle that gets hit hard by this issue is the Fanatic Xenophile/Militarist empire. Think of it as the Blorg minus the repugnant trait, a playstyle that is both extremely viable and interesting. From an RP perspective, one can think of an empire that believes that every sentient life has meaning, that purges are an atrocity, and that all the different species of the galaxy should eventually learn to coexist with each other (emphasis on eventually). At the same time, it knows that it will probably have to enforce these beliefs by force of arms. After all, the great void is filled with fanatical purifiers, jingoistic precursors, and inscrutable horrors lying in wait outside the galaxy or beyond the gates of reality itself. What would be more logical than to unite the empires who not only have the same strong convictions, but also the strength and determination to see them through? Well tough luck, form something as simple as a two party federation, and be prepared to deal with the rebellion of a third of your population. Bonus points for the fact that a fanatic xenophile/militarist A.I. empire can actually get assigned the "Federation Builders" personality.

Summing up, at the moment the militarist faction seems really inconsistent with the aforementioned playstyles, mostly due to its members being hellbent on conquering the whole galaxy by themselves. If the devs' vision for the militarist faction is indeed the total subjugation of the galaxy, an alternate militarist faction could be created to cater for empires who are also egalitarian or xenophile (like in the case of the xenophobe ethic having two distinct factions depending on the rest of an empire's ethics). A simpler solution would be the removal of the "Strong Alone" (not-in-federation) issue of the militarist faction, perhaps replacing it with a desire to have the strongest fleet among the neighbouring empires, same way the technologist faction wants the empire's tech level to be at least equivalent to neighbours' one. At the very least, the crippling -25 happiness malus could be replaced with a lighter penalty, for example -10 would be more than enough.

Most of my info comes from the official wiki, so apologies if there are any inconsistencies. Thanks for reading, it would be great to hear some of the other player's or dev's opinions on this.
 
I agree that the Militarist Ethos has been pushed very heavily towards the Supremacy tradition, to the point that they are more about conquest and warmongering.
Instead of the Federation exclusion, would they not dislike non-agression treaties instead?
Federations also include a Defensive Pact into their structure, something I would think Militarists would like (hey, reasons to go to war!)

This would actually make the 'Federation Builders' a sort of Peacekeeper empire, intent on preserving others from the great threats the galaxy poses for them.
This also leaves more room for Supremacy & Domination to focus towards Xenophobic & Authoritarian combinations, while more defensive Militarist gets plenty of boost out of harmony & prosperity as well.
 
Militarism is frustratingly obsessed over war when, in reality, they should be focused on supremacy. It's one thing to conqure the galaxy but militarists have to remember what happens after that, how the nation is kept in one piece. It's the freaking military and the epic space navy; I feel those aspects aren't even addressed by militarists. I feel the devs didn't think of this when creating the militarist faction, and it definitely needs to be something the militarist faction looks for instead of only war, expansion, and conquest.

the militarist faction get a crippling -25 to their happiness should their empire join any federation
That is something I feel works fine in terms of what the militarists want. It's one thing to make defensive pacts because you want to have that other nation as a shield wall in case something royally screws up with your empire, but forming a federation (at the moment) implies a permanent defensive AND offensive union for the sake of preserving your respective nations rather than for conquest.

However, I think it would make sense if this didn't apply for two militarists factions forming a federation, since they share a common interest: conquest. Maybe they'll wanna conquer each other in the future but if circumstances force them to be in a federation together, that's fine for the time being. I feel the "no federation" demand should be "no federation with non-militarists."
 
More combined ethos factions are clearly needed needed to handle these fringe cases.
Perhaps every faction should incorporate two ethos, and every such two ethos combination should have a faction.
 
That is something I feel works fine in terms of what the militarists want. It's one thing to make defensive pacts because you want to have that other nation as a shield wall in case something royally screws up with your empire, but forming a federation (at the moment) implies a permanent defensive AND offensive union for the sake of preserving your respective nations rather than for conquest."

This is only partially true, in the sense that being in a federation does not prevent you from waging war on empires outside of it. Every federation game I've played, the galaxy was full of fanatical purifiers, hegemonic imperialists and evangelizing zealots which ended up as rivals and enemies. This is the whole idea behind the system that disallowes empires of different war philosophies to be in a federation together. Due to this militarist empires will only join similar minded ones, creating a militarist federation that does not shy at all from attacking whomever it considers an enemy. If the devs really wanted militarist empires to not be able to join federations, they could have done so in a straightforward manner by simply not letting them form or join one. It is a huge contradiction to be able to join a federation, and then have a significant part of your population get a -25 to happiness.

The core of the issue is actually the militarist faction itself, which is all about an empire being the sole conqueror of the galaxy. Unless you want to end up with your pops close to open rebellion, or doing something as silly as suppressing your own empire's ethics, by choosing even the non-fanatic version of militarist, you are locked into a very specific playstyle. Indiscriminate conquest is a characteristic of the more stereotypical "evil" empires, and not of empires that would also happen to be egalitarian or xenophile, which are all about the shades of grey. Even if such an empire forgoes a federation and instead has defensive or non-agression pacts with those it considers its allies, the game would hardly have a satisfying end. A game that ends up with three empires that have signed a non-agression pact, each controlling a third of the galaxy, does not feel to have truly "ended". Replace the previous example with the aforementioned empires being in a federation together, and the game has now really come to its natural conclusion. From an RP perspective this seems a far more reasonable and interesting end-game goal of egalitarian/militarist and xenophile/militarist empires, than the simple "control the whole galaxy". Militarist/xenophobe or militarist/authoritarian empires are far more suited for the latter. Diversity in playstyles is one of the core strengths of Stellaris.
 
I guess a (poor) work-around is to select the ascendancy perk of "Defender of the galaxy" or "galaxy police" (I've forgotten the exact term). That'll give +20 relations with everyone.
 
I agree something is wrong with the current setup. Militarists should care about flexing muscles, not simply hitting everyone. I'd say the militarist faction should care about having a full force limit, having higher strength than neighbors and rivals, being rivaled to opposing ethos' (unless xenophobe, where they like being rivaled with anyone), actually winning wars (ending attrocity and liberation counts as 'subjugation' for xenophile militarists), and having citizen pops serve full military service (xenophile militarists, no matter how tolerant, HATE pacifists and conciencious objectors).

Militarists can also be special in receiving +20 or something in faction happiness for beating an end game crisis....for 50 years.

Militarists should not mind federations if your empire is the muscle of said federation. If the federation is the Allied Powers in WWII, the Militarists expect you to be the United States.
 
The faction system is an interesting mechanic, but needs some fine tuning, right now it can have pretty weird situations on occasion. One was that with militarist Materialist xenophobe I got a massive happiness malus for having a synth as a ruler, while with pacifism there was no penalty at all.

The problem is mainly, that some factions are tied to more than one ethos, but not all are. Especially the xenophobe factions depend on militarism and pacifism to determine which one you get, but you can get both of them at the same time and it's impossible to please both. And it isn't even possible to suppress or promote only one of them, since that is tied to xenophobia not militarism and pacifism.
 
It's looks like almost every combination involving egalitarian or xenophile ethics are broken.
You want to play as space soviets? Nope, your authoritarian-xenophile-materialistic government is unplayable, because you know, you have to give full rights for aliens and synths in your totalitarian regime (but don't forget to enslave your own people).
You want to play as xenophobes who believes in equality between every individuals(by individuals they consider only themselves)? Too bad for you! You can't make that fungus be your slave, give him the same rights and then purge him!
Xenophile-militarist? No way, just conquer them all, because your people will hate you for any diplomacy with aliens(so xenophile of them).
I'm not sure, but I think spiritualistic-egalitarians are also broken(because of secular government)
 
I feel like the general theme for factions should be:

-Militarists like being tough and assertive
-Xenophiles like being cosmopolitan, seeing every species has a role
-Egalitarians like championing rights and freedom for whoever species they care about
-Pacifists dont like spilling blood
-Xenophobes want purity and racial harmony
-Authoritarians want social order, making sure responsibilities are given to the most deserving
-Spiritualists believe in the soul, and a higher plane of being, knowing one's own place in nature
-materialists want to know more, and challenge natural rules.

Right now faction desires seem more stereotypical than reasonable.
 
It's looks like almost every combination involving egalitarian or xenophile ethics are broken.
You want to play as space soviets? Nope, your authoritarian-xenophile-materialistic government is unplayable, because you know, you have to give full rights for aliens and synths in your totalitarian regime (but don't forget to enslave your own people).
You want to play as xenophobes who believes in equality between every individuals(by individuals they consider only themselves)? Too bad for you! You can't make that fungus be your slave, give him the same rights and then purge him!
Xenophile-militarist? No way, just conquer them all, because your people will hate you for any diplomacy with aliens(so xenophile of them).
I'm not sure, but I think spiritualistic-egalitarians are also broken(because of secular government)

Spiritualist/Egalitarian is just fine. As long as your A.)Spiritualist, B.) not fanatically something else and C.) Don't have a non-spiritualist Civic that changes the government name, you should have a theocratic government. That can include, for the sake of egalitarians, Theocratic Democracy, Theocratic Oligarchy, or Holy Tribunal (Oligarchy w/ Exalted Priesthood civic)

As for the OP, I fail to see how Militarist is incompatible with Egalitarian or Xenophile, unless you're simply assuming Egalitarian = Federation and Xenphile = Federation, which it does not. One of my funnest games was a United Nations of Earth (You know, the Fanatic Egalitarian Xenophiles?) were I stood at arms length from Federations, having Association status from the closest one but otherwise did my own thing. Gave me a lot of freedom to where and how to expand, and the trust from the association status meant I was still getting Migration Treaties and Research agreements and trading strategic resources all the time.

Authoritarian Xenophiles and Egalitarian Xenophobes are where the real problem is, since their factions are literally incompatible. Thankfully Wiz mentioned in the devstream that they are looking into it.
 
While this isn't the exact same, I was recently playing authoritarian/militarist/materialist and I was facing similar problems with faction happiness after joining a federation for defensive purposes. I found a few ways that I could work around these problems. First, I deliberately reduced my governing faction ethos, running encourage free thought and pushing my capitol to the edges of my empire. Second, I tried to improve the attraction of my secondary ethos by doing things that pleased those factions, like building tons of robots and enslaving. Lastly, I built lots of happiness boosting buildings ex. monument of unity, and loop institute if you get lucky.
 
I agree that the Militarist Ethos has been pushed very heavily towards the Supremacy tradition, to the point that they are more about conquest and warmongering.
Instead of the Federation exclusion, would they not dislike non-agression treaties instead?
Federations also include a Defensive Pact into their structure, something I would think Militarists would like (hey, reasons to go to war!)

This would actually make the 'Federation Builders' a sort of Peacekeeper empire, intent on preserving others from the great threats the galaxy poses for them.
This also leaves more room for Supremacy & Domination to focus towards Xenophobic & Authoritarian combinations, while more defensive Militarist gets plenty of boost out of harmony & prosperity as well.

Interesting. From the Wiki.
"
An Empire joining will lose:
  • The option to sign Non-Aggression Pacts and Defense Pacts.
Or are they allowed to bring their current Pacts with them to the Federation?
 
If the federation is the Allied Powers in WWII, the Militarists expect you to be the United States.

I feel like federations are a bit more than that though, things like the allied powers or nato would be better represented in game as defensive pacts, a federation is a more permanent thing that i can understand militarists being against, militarists want war, they want to be out enforcing their will on others through the strength of their military, not trying to unite the galaxy in peaceful cooperation
 
I feel like federations are a bit more than that though, things like the allied powers or nato would be better represented in game as defensive pacts, a federation is a more permanent thing that i can understand militarists being against, militarists want war, they want to be out enforcing their will on others through the strength of their military, not trying to unite the galaxy in peaceful cooperation
We are talking xenophile militarists here. We are trying to combine a fondness for people who are different with a violent disposition. Any other militarists, sure, will work alone, but people who champion xeno equality, why would they oppose cooperation?
 
Anyone know if there are any mods for more factions, seem like a simple thing to do but i havent found any?
I'm trying to learn the system for exactly this reason. The idea would be to create more hybrid factions like the current xenophobe-pacifists.

So far my first thoughts have been for militarist-egalitarian (democratic crusader, pro federation), xenophile-authoritarian (cultural assimilators, don't mind caste system) and a split between egalitarian and egalitarian-materialist to avoid the issues of synthetic slavery tanking happiness for non materialists with nothing that can be done about it.

I'd also be looking to create political events, specifically negative consequences for faction low happiness that's independent of unrest (far too easy to circumvent the entire system otherwise). Even more ideally I'd also like to see the amount of influence gained graduated by how happy the faction is, starting from 50%. Don't think that last one is possible though.

Still, given how slow progress has been so far, someone else will inevitably manage this first. :D
 
I agree something is wrong with the current setup. Militarists should care about flexing muscles, not simply hitting everyone. I'd say the militarist faction should care about having a full force limit, having higher strength than neighbors and rivals, being rivaled to opposing ethos' (unless xenophobe, where they like being rivaled with anyone), actually winning wars (ending attrocity and liberation counts as 'subjugation' for xenophile militarists), and having citizen pops serve full military service (xenophile militarists, no matter how tolerant, HATE pacifists and conciencious objectors).
this would make 60%+ happiness for the militarist faction a lock for any competent player, even one playing a pacifist regime
 
We are talking xenophile militarists here. We are trying to combine a fondness for people who are different with a violent disposition. Any other militarists, sure, will work alone, but people who champion xeno equality, why would they oppose cooperation?
I would consider them to love having lots of xenos inside their own state, not necessarily entangling themselves deeply into the affairs of other states aside from trying to get a better position in war. As in real life, not all ethos combinations have the same amount of synergy with eachother and xenophile militarist is perfectly viable as it is now, just maybe not ideal.