[DoK] North Africa

[Third Angel]

This thread is dedicated to discussions about North African events and scenarios setup.

Ifriqiya should be the correct spelling, I believe it is a transliteration from the Arabic.

I don't know if you'd go for Aghlabites in Tunisia (THU), then! Ifriqiya sounds more ancient Arabic...

Ifriqiya could be alright, though it could also sound weird between Morocco and Egypt. I think we have to accept that countries in this era will not match with modern ones anyway, this is true for almost all of them. I will consider Ifriqiya but I still think what is important is that the Aghlabids' capital(s) was in Tunisia and that they controlled (almost) all of the modern country area.

I would stay for FAT and get the cores. Then no more Tunisia as the Fatimides conquered the whole North Africa and founded Al-Qahira (Cairo). So we need events to conquer Morocco and Egypt. The Kutama Berbers should give quality.

Sorry but I have to disagree again. It has been a while since I read anything about this, I must certainly have seen the books you mentioned earlier, but I recall that the Fatimids moved their capital first to Kairouan then to another city quite near and they also controlled modern Tunisia. Then there are sixty years before they move to Cairo, and they should not remained as Tazrut for all that time if they managed to destroy the Aghlabids. When they move to Cairo, they should become EGY but anyway, the events are yet to be scripted.

Also, the Domestic Policies have been changed, you may want to have a look at them and eventually open a new thread if you want to discuss them , they were done quite hastily.

Here in countries.txt:

THU = { #Thuringia
    picture = "gfx\scenarios\picture_MIN.bmp"
    color = LightYellow
    techgroup = latin
    leader_language = HEI
    gfx = {
        army = GER
        navy = VEN
    }
    policy = {
        aristocracy = 8
        centralization = 1
        innovative = 4
        mercantilism = 8
        offensive = 5
        land = 6
        quality = 5
        serfdom = 9
    }
    history = { }
}

Ok, I see it now thanks, double entry then. The right THU section is where KRN (Kairouan) used to be, that is what the Aghlabids used to be called in older versions:

THU = { #Tunisia (Aghlabids/Fatimids/Zirids)
    picture = "gfx\scenarios\picture_MUS.bmp"
    color = Grey
    techgroup = latin
    leader_language = MUS
    gfx = {
        army = MUS
        navy = VEN
    }
    policy = {
        aristocracy = 7
        centralization = 5
        innovative = 5
        mercantilism = 8
        offensive = 5
        land = 5
        quality = 5
        serfdom = 6
    }
    history = { }
}

I will delete the Thuringian entry and put the Tunisian one in its correct place.

 

[Bordic]

I recall that the Fatimids moved their capital first to Kairouan then to another city quite near and they also controlled modern Tunisia. Then there are sixty years before they move to Cairo, and they should not remained as Tazrut for all that time if they managed to destroy the Aghlabids. When they move to Cairo, they should become EGY but anyway, the events are yet to be scripted.

Yes, I just wanted to say that the name Tunisia could be limiting to the Fatimids as they expanded to Egypt after having defeated the Aghlabites and conquered their territories. After having conquered Egypt they founded Cairo.

You mean to change the tag from FAT to THU and then from THU to EGY, don't you? That is useful when Saladin rises to power.



From the general DOK thread:

Shouldn't BYZ have a core on Messina at start?

Any idea of how we could simulate the siege of Taormina? Maybe a loss of claim_core if BYZ doesn't control Messina province for 10 years?

ownerchange = { province = x years = y months = m days = d }

Is true if province x has been owned by the current owner for at least y years, m months and
d days (not all time fields have to be filled, one is enough).

controlchange = { province = x years = y months = m days = d }

Is true if province x has been controlled by the current controller for at least y years, m
months and d days (not all time fields have to be filled, one is enough).

In case we need at start a BYZ claim_core on Messina.

How about giving them only a casusbelli core in 888 as we are just talking of one small city in a whole province. Taormina only fell in 902 if I recall correctly, so the CB core could be removed if BYZ does not take it back before that date.

Then they may get claim cores when they make real plans to actually reconquer the island during the tenth century, I cannot remember when exactly.

Yes a CB core from start then, until an event about the fall of Taormina with the 10 years control trigger. But if BYZ reconquers it, should we change the quality of the core with a triggered event for BYZ? From cb to claim, for instance?


EDIT: As I posted in the general dok thread, I would like to find something more about the struggle between the Berbers and the Arabs in Sicily, and between the Aghlabites and the Fatimids in Tunisia.

I have some info about Arabic Sicily, Ibrahim II (THU monarch) and Al Mahdi (FAT monarch Ubayd Allah). Not much about the struggle between the Fatimids and the Aghlabids. I'll see what I can do for some description in event THU_368000 and following. This event deals with preach liberty, humm...

The sources I have here are the already said about Sicily and a couple of (some readable parts of) google books about the Fatimids:

• A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic period (Jamil M Abun-Nasr)
• The Empire of the Mahdi (H Halm, M Bonner)

 

[Bordic]

Ifriqiya could be alright, though it could also sound weird between Morocco and Egypt. I think we have to accept that countries in this era will not match with modern ones anyway, this is true for almost all of them. I will consider Ifriqiya but I still think what is important is that the Aghlabids' capital(s) was in Tunisia and that they controlled (almost) all of the modern country area.

Well Morocco should be "Maghrib" as it is the correct Arabic word for the country. It also means "Sunset" or "Western land". So we would have Maghrib, Ifriqiya and Egypt. Well, Egypt was and is Egypt anyway, even if the Arabic translation is "Misr".

About Ifriqiya, it wasn't only Tunisia, but also parts of nowaday's Algeria and Libya.

Sorry but I have to disagree again. It has been a while since I read anything about this, I must certainly have seen the books you mentioned earlier, but I recall that the Fatimids moved their capital first to Kairouan then to another city quite near and they also controlled modern Tunisia.

You mean Mahdia, I think.

About the Aghlabids or Tunisia (THU) in game, I see that you already planned events about changing the capital to Tunis in 984:

#THU - Tunisia - Events

#move capital to tunis in 894

 

[Third Angel]

You mean to change the tag from FAT to THU and then from THU to EGY, don't you? That is useful when Saladin rises to power.

Yes.

As I posted in the general dok thread, I would like to find something more about the struggle between the Berbers and the Arabs in Sicily, and between the Aghlabites and the Fatimids in Tunisia.

I have some info about Arabic Sicily, Ibrahim II (THU monarch) and Al Mahdi (FAT monarch Ubayd Allah). Not much about the struggle between the Fatimids and the Aghlabids. I'll see what I can do for some description in event THU_368000 and following. This event deals with preach liberty, humm...

The sources I have here are the already said about Sicily and a couple of (some readable parts of) google books about the Fatimids:

• A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic period (Jamil M Abun-Nasr)
• The Empire of the Mahdi (H Halm, M Bonner)

Ok, I will look into my old bookmarks to see if I can give you some links but, like I said, I seem to recall the two books you are mentioning so I may have not much more to offer.

Well Morocco should be "Maghrib" as it is the correct Arabic word for the country. It also means "Sunset" or "Western land". So we would have Maghrib, Ifriqiya and Egypt. Well, Egypt was and is Egypt anyway, even if the Arabic translation is "Misr".

Well, I would rather have all countries names in English, so as al-Maghrib is Morocco in Arabic, I think I will keep Morocco.

About Ifriqiya, it wasn't only Tunisia, but also parts of nowaday's Algeria and Libya.

I will think about it. I have to find more about Ifriqiya, also about the antiquity of the word "Tunisia".

You mean Mahdia, I think.

Yes, I do not remember if I did anything about it.

About the Aghlabids or Tunisia (THU) in game, I see that you already planned events about changing the capital to Tunis in 984:

#THU - Tunisia - Events

#move capital to tunis in 894

Yes, but I needed to learn more about it, right now I have nothing more to script than the change of capital province.



About the BYZ core in Sicily, I will adress this in the Italy thread.

 

[Therion]

Well, I would rather have all countries names in English, so as al-Maghrib is Morocco in Arabic, I think I will keep Morocco.

The English equivalent of 'al-Maghrib' is 'The West' not Morocco. Morocco is the European exonym deriving from the city of Marrakech, which did not even exist in the year 888 (it was founded almost two centuries later).

The best solution IMO, given your stance on dynastic names, is to rename Morocco to Fez, the Idrisid capital, in the same vein of Cordoba and Tahert. The lesser "Moroccan" kingdoms, if included, would be Nekor, Sijilmassa and Tamesna.

 

[Third Angel]

Ok, Fez sounds like a good compromise, I will wait to hear what Bordic has to say about it though.

 

[Bordic]

In 888 scenario we already have Tahert and Sijilmassa, so Fez is consistent. I don't know about Nekor and Tamesna. Do we need them?

About the capital cities, we already have Marrakech, Cairo and other cities of the future on the map. Should we replace them?
Don't tell me, I don't know which name we could give instead. ;-)

 

[Garbon]

Cairo would be replaced by Fustat until the Fatimids built Cairo in 969.

 

[Third Angel]

In 888 scenario we already have Tahert and Sijilmassa, so Fez is consistent.

We will go with Fez then.

I don't know about Nekor and Tamesna. Do we need them?

I do not know either, so not yet I guess.

About the capital cities, we already have Marrakech, Cairo and other cities of the future on the map. Should we replace them?
Don't tell me, I don't know which name we could give instead. ;-)

We should certainly replace them at some point, but that is not a priority, we can wait for suggestions, like Garbon's one.

 

[Bordic]

In case of changing the name for Tunisia into Ifriqiya or Ifriqya, would you also change the tag from THU to IFR or former KRN or even AGH (Aghlabids, for consistency with ABB and FAT)?

 

[Third Angel]

Ifriqiya sounds good, tag will be IFQ as it will also be used by the Fatimids and the Zirids.

 

[Bordic]

Ifriqiya sounds good, tag will be IFQ as it will also be used by the Fatimids and the Zirids.

Ok, I am scripting some events in time span 888-915 involving Baghdad, Ifriqiya, Fez, Sijilmassa, the Fatimides, the Aghlabides and also one starting event about the Kharijites in Morocco.

I have found the inspiration in the google-book: "A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period" by Jamil M. Abun-Nasr (pages 52-63).

According to that book correct capital name in Tunisia should be Raqqada and not Kairouan, by the way in Kairouan province. Ibrahim II established his fortified residence there at 8 km to the south-east of Kairouan since 876. So I don't know if we need to move the capital to Tunis in 894. Maybe an event to state the new interest of the Aghlabites towards Sicily instead of the Kutama region where the Ismailites were organizing Berber revolts?

EDIT: about FAT country in revolt.txt. I believe it should represent the Kutama Berbers. So why not having the core provinces converted to Shiite or Ismailite religion by events?
Afterwards with the new Fatimid Ifriqiya we could have other events to convert the arabic provinces from Sunni to Shiite, in case.

 

[Bordic]

In seeing the Western Islamic kingdoms, I'd suggest to give Kahrijite religion to:

- some of the Morocco (FEZ?) inland provinces around Fez;
- the capital city provinces of Tahert and Sijilmassa or even some more;
- some Ifriqiya provinces, maybe some of the Tazrut (FAT) cores.

EDIT: reedited suggestion for province religion only.

 

[Bordic]

The lesser "Moroccan" kingdoms, if included, would be Nekor, Sijilmassa and Tamesna.

I think we could include them as per this map here. Tamesna is actually Berghawata.

We could have a couple of events about them in the first decades of 888 scenario: the Kahrijite revolts (888-907) and the Fatimid conquest of Nekor in 917.

We could even use the same Kahrijite revolts which I am now writing for FEZ...

However we can still have them as "semi-autonomous" provinces of FEZ and not deal with flags, shields, monarchs, leaders, tags, ID ranges... ;-)

 

[Bordic]

As a beginning I'd suggest a simple event to give some information about the religious struggles in North Africa, in particular in Morocco... ahemm, Fez...

event = {
	id = 194000
	random = no
	country = FEZ

	name = "The Sufrite Berbers"
	desc = "."

	date = { day = 0 month = january year = 888 }
	offset = 360
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 888 }

	action = {
		name = "No deal with them"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 200 value = 5 }
	}
	action = {
		name = "Let us find a compromise"
		command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 200 value = 2 }
	}
}

event description:

Whilst Sunnite Islam and Arab culture were well received in the main towns of the Idrisids, Berber remained the dominant language in the countryside as well in the mountainous territories and Islamic heterodox or even heretical doctrines were a means of rejecting the Arab rule. The Sufrite Kharijites were a powerful sect which also managed to occupy Fez, the Idrisid capital city during Ali II's rule. When the Idrisid prince Yahya III rose to the throne, he managed to drive the Sufrites out of Fez and to be acknowledged as legitimate Ali II's successor. However the threat of Sufrite tribes was constant in the country and only ceased in 907 when the Sufrite leader 'Abdul Razzaq was defeated and then killed.


EDIT: updated event, action B added and some DP changes in case.

 

[Bordic]

This is a first event of a long planned sequence to represent the struggle for power between the Aghlabids and the Ismailis, with some digression in Sicily and Calabria at the expenses of Byzantium:

event = {
	id = 368003
	random = no
	country = IFQ

	name = "Ibrahim II's Tyranny"
	desc = "."

	date = { day = 0 month = january year = 888 }
	offset = 720
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 889 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Restrain influence of the Arab Jund"
		command = { type = MIL which = -1 value = 60 }
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = 1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 180 value = 10 }
	}
	action_a = {
		name = "Try to appease the Arab military leaders"
		command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 60 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 180 value = 3 }
	}
}

event description:


In order to stop Arab hostility towards Baghdad's government in Ifriqiya, the Abbasid caliphs had assigned the Emirate to the Aghlabid dynasty as hereditary fief. Following his predecessors, Emir Ibrahim II took despotic measures in order to make his authority independent from the powerful Arab jund (the conquering Arab Army) even surrounding himself with non-Arab loyal troops such as black slaves. During his rule, in 899 he had the Qadi Ibn Talib tortured to death and in 903-904 he ordered the massacre of the Arab Jund leaders at the Balazma castle, in Kutama territory. Ibrahim II' tyranny towards the Arab jund would provoke the uprise of the Kutama Berbers and contribute to the successes of the Ismaili campaigns.


EDIT: Kutama rebels changed into Kutama Berbers !

 

[Third Angel]

The two events look good and should have been included in 0.5, I cannot remember why they were not. :huh:

I agree with all the suggestions above and I intended to work on the North African setup in all four scenarios for 0.51 anyway, I will let you know about my progress.

 

[Bordic]

I have found an ebook about North Africa here at Project Gutenberg. That's in French but only the first book from the beginning to 1045 is readable.

There's also a book about China, that's in English. ;-)

 

[Third Angel]

I have found an ebook about North Africa here at Project Gutenberg. That's in French but only the first book from the beginning to 1045 is readable.

A bit old maybe, its informations will probably need to be confirmed by other sources.

There's also a book about China, that's in English. ;-)

Good find this one, though it will be a long time before I work on China now that our volunteer is gone. :glare:

 

[Bordic]

A bit old maybe, its informations will probably need to be confirmed by other sources.

Yes, I have also these other two books (even if partially readable in google but sufficient for the events I am going to represent for North Africa):

• A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic period (Jamil M Abun-Nasr)
• The Empire of the Mahdi (H Halm, M Bonner)