Discussion: Where do you draw the line between Production, Tariffs and Trade

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Moridin997

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As the title says, this thread is to discuss what the Production, Tariffs and Trade concepts of EU4 pretend to simulate IRL and if such representation is fun and satisfyingly accurate.

My thoughts: while I somewhat understand the division, I think that the new Trade system renders Tariffs (and maybe even Production) obsolete. This is because Tariffs are well simulated by steering the trade from colonies back to the mother-country.

As for Production, what is it simulating? The profit the state has from selling its national trade goods? Taxation of specific trade goods (like salt or spices)? Why can't it be simulated by mercantilism or monopolizing a trade node?


So, what are your thoughts? Where do YOU draw the line separating these 3 concepts?
 
Trade>everything

75% of income comes from trade.
Rest comes from taxes

Tariffs and production are useless.

Imbalanced...nuff said.
 
Trade>everything

75% of income comes from trade.
Rest comes from taxes

Tariffs and production are useless.

Imbalanced...nuff said.


Aside being imbalanced (btw, many players would certainly agree with you), when you play, what do you imagine them to be? What Taxes represent is obvious, Trade is also mostly obvious but, what IS Production?

Now you think: obviously, it represents the money you earn from selling the goods your country produces...

But, if Production is that, then what is that money you make from trade value in your capital's trade node if not the worth of your country's trade goods? Isn't that redundant? Isn't that an unfair duplication of income?


And why is Tariffs a separate source of income, when it could be represented by Taxes and Trade (aside from requiring sea patrols, to simulate IRL ship convoys)?



So, my question is more related to game immersion and suspension of disbelief (and a bit philosophical, I guess...).

What is PRODUCTION? What is TARIFFS?
 
So, any thoughts?

I plan on doing a mod with "better economy" as one of the features.

For that, I'd really like to know how players regard these concepts and understand the differences between them in order to properly alter the game.
 
Something I wrote elsewhere, my understanding of what the different types of income represent:

Tax Income is traditional income from land, such as feudal lords paying money in lieu of their traditional levies (as occurs increasingly in CK as the timeline progresses). It is closely linked to the fertility and productivity of the local area, and also to population (which thankfully is no longer tracked directly, as while it might have been flavoursome, it caused problems for modding and was extremely difficult to accurately research). At the beginning of the game, it is the most important source of income for almost everyone, but while it does increase, it is fairly static over the course of the game, and should be overtaken (gradually, then dramatically) by Production and Trade income.

• The Trade Good a province produces represents its primary export. Most provinces also have substantial agricultural production — that's represented in the Base Tax, above. A province will only be a Grain (or other food good) province if it was a very notable grain exporter or, more likely, if it didn't export anything else of note. Areas like Lombardy and the Low Countries, for instance, certainly had fertile agriculture, but they also had large local urban populations consuming that surplus and producing the manufactured goods we see as their province trade good (ie, Cloth).

Production Income derives from the taxes on the sale of whatever your provinces' trade good may be to whoever is distributing it via the trade network.

Trade Income derives from taxes on the buying and selling of goods up and down the trade network. If you are collecting a large proportion of trade in a node, it doesn't necessarily mean that those goods aren't travelling any further, it just means that your merchants have a strong controlling interest in the trade from that point on.


Over time, reflecting historical developments, Production and Trade should catch up with Tax Income and overtake it (please note that I am not at all sure that this happens to a satisfactory extent in vanilla. This is more of a design document for my mod). For highly developed countries with lots of trade interests, first, but eventually for everyone who is not very backward and shut out of world trade. By the end of the game, for the largest and most advanced powers, tax income should be an almost forgotten footnote in the budget, while control of trade and production of the most valuable trade goods is all.


If we look at EU's prequel and sequel games, we can see where we are going from and to:

• In Crusader Kings, there is no income from trade or taxation of exports, only local land tax. (Unless you are doing the Republic thing, which is a precursor of the longer distance trade that everyone starts to get involved in as the EU period begins.)

• In Victoria, there is no such thing as base tax from a province — all income derives from the production of goods and their conversion through artisans and then industry into increasingly valuable and technologically advanced end products.

The job of the EU economic system is to bridge the gap between those two. Successful countries will go from a local economy based on traditional land taxation to a global economy based on the export and carriage of the most valuable goods.

At the start of the game, when you want to know how valuable a province is, you check its base tax, while also noting any trade power bonuses, then lastly noticing its trade good.

By the end of the game, the order should be reversed: the trade good is by far the most important factor, followed by any strategic trade advantage (but that can always be obtained by buildings or more ships instead) and the base tax as an afterthought.


Edit: Oh, and Tariffs.

Tariffs are an unwanted overcomplication of the system now. The point of the new Tariff category in EUIII was that it forced you to build a large navy to get the full value from your colonies. (Navies weren't very important then, so people often skimped on this.)

You do still need one light ship or heavy ship for each overseas province you own to get the full Tariff value, but everybody builds lots of light ships anyway because they are worth Trade Power now. And you also probably want enough Heavy Ships that you aren't going to get blockaded in every war you get into.

So Tariffs are a historical vestige we're left with from EUIII. And their modifiers probably are not WAD.
 
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Trade>everything

75% of income comes from trade.
Rest comes from taxes

Tariffs and production are useless.

Imbalanced...nuff said.
It depends on country. Poland or Russia don't have a connection to Indian trade routes, so most of their income comes from production/taxes.
Also, trade depends on production, that's why manufactories are so awesome.
 
It depends on country. Poland or Russia don't have a connection to Indian trade routes, so most of their income comes from production/taxes.
Also, trade depends on production, that's why manufactories are so awesome.

Trade doesn't depend on production, production depends on trade. I think they switch this around from EUIII. I don't particularly like this change.
 
Trade doesn't depend on production, production depends on trade. I think they switch this around from EUIII. I don't particularly like this change.

Click on any province. Look at the Trade section. Read the tooltip for "Trade Value".
Trade depends on production and manufactory can nearly double trade value of a province.
 
Click on any province. Look at the Trade section. Read the tooltip for "Trade Value".
Trade depends on production and manufactory can nearly double trade value of a province.

You should reread the tooltips. Goods Produced is not the same as Production Income. Goods Produced gets turn into Trade Value which is multiplied by production efficiency to become Production Income.
 
Production is great as it is somewhat counted 2 times. Especially if you are not an overseas empire.

Say your province produce 1 unit worth 3 gold with a production efficiency of +100%.
You will see 6 in the production line.

Now you will get from this province 6/12 aka 0.5 gold a month as revenue but then you have the trade node too, and this province will add 3/12 aka 0.25 gold a month local value to this node.
If its a node where you have lot of power(home node for exemple), then its all good as you get 2 incomes from one source.

Thats why manufactures are good as they boost both production direct income from the province and trade node value derivated from this province.
 
Something I wrote elsewhere, my understanding of what the different types of income represent:

Tax Income is traditional income from land, such as feudal lords paying money in lieu of their traditional levies (as occurs increasingly in CK as the timeline progresses). It is closely linked to the fertility and productivity of the local area, and also to population (which thankfully is no longer tracked directly, as while it might have been flavoursome, it caused problems for modding and was extremely difficult to accurately research). At the beginning of the game, it is the most important source of income for almost everyone, but while it does increase, it is fairly static over the course of the game, and should be overtaken (gradually, then dramatically) by Production and Trade income.

• The Trade Good a province produces represents its primary export. Most provinces also have substantial agricultural production — that's represented in the Base Tax, above. A province will only be a Grain (or other food good) province if it was a very notable grain exporter or, more likely, if it didn't export anything else of note. Areas like Lombardy and the Low Countries, for instance, certainly had fertile agriculture, but they also had large local urban populations consuming that surplus and producing the manufactured goods we see as their province trade good (ie, Cloth).

Production Income derives from the taxes on the sale of whatever your provinces' trade good may be to whoever is distributing it via the trade network.

Trade Income derives from taxes on the buying and selling of goods up and down the trade network. If you are collecting a large proportion of trade in a node, it doesn't necessarily mean that those goods aren't travelling any further, it just means that your merchants have a strong controlling interest in the trade from that point on.


Over time, reflecting historical developments, Production and Trade should catch up with Tax Income and overtake it (please note that I am not at all sure that this happens to a satisfactory extent in vanilla. This is more of a design document for my mod). For highly developed countries with lots of trade interests, first, but eventually for everyone who is not very backward and shut out of world trade. By the end of the game, for the largest and most advanced powers, tax income should be an almost forgotten footnote in the budget, while control of trade and production of the most valuable trade goods is all.


If we look at EU's prequel and sequel games, we can see where we are going from and to:

• In Crusader Kings, there is no income from trade or taxation of exports, only local land tax. (Unless you are doing the Republic thing, which is a precursor of the longer distance trade that everyone starts to get involved in as the EU period begins.)

• In Victoria, there is no such thing as base tax from a province — all income derives from the production of goods and their conversion through artisans and then industry into increasingly valuable and technologically advanced end products.

The job of the EU economic system is to bridge the gap between those two. Successful countries will go from a local economy based on traditional land taxation to a global economy based on the export and carriage of the most valuable goods.

At the start of the game, when you want to know how valuable a province is, you check its base tax, while also noting any trade power bonuses, then lastly noticing its trade good.

By the end of the game, the order should be reversed: the trade good is by far the most important factor, followed by any strategic trade advantage (but that can always be obtained by buildings or more ships instead) and the base tax as an afterthought.


Edit: Oh, and Tariffs.

Tariffs are an unwanted overcomplication of the system now. The point of the new Tariff category in EUIII was that it forced you to build a large navy to get the full value from your colonies. (Navies weren't very important then, so people often skimped on this.)

You do still need one light ship or heavy ship for each overseas province you own to get the full Tariff value, but everybody builds lots of light ships anyway because they are worth Trade Power now. And you also probably want enough Heavy Ships that you aren't going to get blockaded in every war you get into.

So Tariffs are a historical vestige we're left with from EUIII. And their modifiers probably are not WAD.

Very interesting post, pac.

Glad you agree with me on Tariffs: they really aren't needed anymore... We could even keep the big/light ship requirement as a modifier to overseas' taxation and production, if necessary, without transforming them into tariffs. (As an aside, colonial polices would also be nice)

Your view of Tax Income is similar to my own, thought I disagree with the loss of population as a game feature and also believe you exaggerate a little bit the lack of importance of Tax by the end of the game's timeframe.

My view of Trade Goods is equal to your own, nothing to disagree about...


Now, regarding Trade and Production: you say Production is the taxation on the sale of the province's trade goods. Then, you say Trade is the taxation of the trade transactions taking place in a trade node. My point is: don't these two concepts overlap when the nodes we're talking about belong to the country?

I mean, imagine you ruled the British Isles: you tax the products your provinces sell and then tax them again when someone is buying those same trade goods?


I think I understand your point (sort of) but, in my view, the concept of Trade encompasses it all. In my view, selling those trade goods in the first place is "Trade" and taxing those sales is a Trade Tax. Whatever trade transactions are later taxed still fall in the same category.




I hope I properly understood your ideas and that you understand what I'm saying xD



Production is great as it is somewhat counted 2 times. Especially if you are not an overseas empire.

Say your province produce 1 unit worth 3 gold with a production efficiency of +100%.
You will see 6 in the production line.

Now you will get from this province 6/12 aka 0.5 gold a month as revenue but then you have the trade node too, and this province will add 3/12 aka 0.25 gold a month local value to this node.
If its a node where you have lot of power(home node for exemple), then its all good as you get 2 incomes from one source.

Thats why manufactures are good as they boost both production direct income from the province and trade node value derivated from this province.



Exactly my thoughts: it feels like I'm earning money 2 times for the same thing...


(P.S.: How do I put the quote in spoilers? I hate posting big confusing walls of text xD)
 
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Wanted to add that it seems trade>>everything else just for one reason.

Ai dont really compete in trade, so a player can have like 50 75%+ of the world trade...
Way way harder to achieve that for taxes or production...
 
Trade is entrepot trade, buying and passing on other people's goods as well as your own. Production can be thought of as internal tariffs and such to collect money before the goods leave your state.
 
Trade is entrepot trade, buying and passing on other people's goods as well as your own. Production can be thought of as internal tariffs and such to collect money before the goods leave your state.

Then imagine you're playing as the Incas. You conquered all your neighbors and have a complete monopoly of your home trade node.

If Production represents internal tariffs and you have no nations to trade with, shouldn't your trade income be a big flat ZERO?
 
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• In Victoria, there is no such thing as base tax from a province — all income derives from the production of goods and their conversion through artisans and then industry into increasingly valuable and technologically advanced end products.
This is not really true. In Victoria you just gain income from taxing the population directly without any province abstraction. But taxation certainly doesn't disappear as an essential source of income for the state.
 
I think of it like this:

1) Tax seemed adequately explained above.

2) Production is the income from monopolies, rents, licenses, etc. Critically, it is associated with the chief good of the province. But as production increases, more people conduct incidental trade. I'm a buyer for wool, so I go to Province X, and buy some to bring it back to my headquarters. As I do so, I bring some goods with me which I sell in Province X, spend some money on food and lodging in Province X, buy some souvenirs to take back to my wife, etc. And vice versa. In this sense, the trade income is not direct income, rather it is the increased revenue in your capital (or other node where you are collecting) due to that place serving as an entrepot. Even if you owned the entire world, merchants from all over your empire would come to that location to conduct business, firms would be headquartered there, other companies would keep factors, etc. This produces additional tax/miscellaneous income at that location, which is represented by the trade income.
 
I think of it like this:

1) Tax seemed adequately explained above.

2) Production is the income from monopolies, rents, licenses, etc. Critically, it is associated with the chief good of the province. But as production increases, more people conduct incidental trade. I'm a buyer for wool, so I go to Province X, and buy some to bring it back to my headquarters. As I do so, I bring some goods with me which I sell in Province X, spend some money on food and lodging in Province X, buy some souvenirs to take back to my wife, etc. And vice versa. In this sense, the trade income is not direct income, rather it is the increased revenue in your capital (or other node where you are collecting) due to that place serving as an entrepot. Even if you owned the entire world, merchants from all over your empire would come to that location to conduct business, firms would be headquartered there, other companies would keep factors, etc. This produces additional tax/miscellaneous income at that location, which is represented by the trade income.


Wow, that's an interesting definition... On the other hand, it leads me to ask: did this kind of "indirect" spending matter that much in the game's timeframe?

I mean, by such interpretation, you're earning loads of money out of what's essentially "business tourism", like modern day executives paying for transportation and hotels...

If it were today, I would accept such interpretation, but centuries ago? I doubt it would matter that much.

At best, that's what the "Important Center of Trade" modifier represents...



Therefore, I keep believing that the Production and Trade concepts are overlapping each other when it comes to Domestic Trade.



If you think I didn't properly understand your point or disagree with my interpretion of it, please, tell me. I enjoy a good argument xD
 
This is not really true. In Victoria you just gain income from taxing the population directly without any province abstraction. But taxation certainly doesn't disappear as an essential source of income for the state.
Er?

Where did I say that there was no taxation?

What I said was that there is no such thing as Base Tax in Victoria, and that all income derives from the production of goods, etc. Don't think you can dispute that.
 
Your view of Tax Income is similar to my own, thought I disagree with the loss of population as a game feature and also believe you exaggerate a little bit the lack of importance of Tax by the end of the game's timeframe.
I don't believe that Base Tax ceases to be important in the game as it stands at the moment.

Like I said, that post was to a large extent something of a design document, so that's a goal rather than an observation. However, Base Tax would still remain important for, eg, force limits right to the end of the game.


Now, regarding Trade and Production: you say Production is the taxation on the sale of the province's trade goods. Then, you say Trade is the taxation of the trade transactions taking place in a trade node. My point is: don't these two concepts overlap when the nodes we're talking about belong to the country?

I mean, imagine you ruled the British Isles: you tax the products your provinces sell and then tax them again when someone is buying those same trade goods?
Sure. I tax things as many times as I can get away with!

A key point about Production is that it is goods-related income that cannot be taken away from you. If you are Spain, with countless colonies, and the Dutch achieve a complete monopoly on shipping, you will still get the Production income. (Well, Tariffs.)

You, as the player, are probably usually getting money twice for the same thing, because you are succeeding in maintaining good control over your own trade. This probably shouldn't be so easy to do, and if you weren't able to do it, you would feel very glad that there are separate categories and you are still able to get something from all your export goods. (And Production is too weak compared with Trade at the moment, but it's still something.)
 
Then imagine you're playing as the Incas. You conquered all your neighbors and have a complete monopoly of your home trade node.

If Production represents internal tariffs and you have no nations to trade with, shouldn't your trade income be a big flat ZERO?
The trade system is designed for a global trade network. Of course it doesn't make a lot of sense if you are just one isolated nation. Lots of game elements don't make much sense if you decide to play as the Inca or Aztecs — not to mention the North American countries.