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Dakka

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Mar 25, 2014
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As many of you are likely aware, there are some decisions and accomplishments that can be achieved in EU4 that leave... a lot to be desired. For me, this centers around a few lackluster rewards for significant changes in and around Europe. In reality, these actions should be massive game changers religiously and diplomatically for Christian Europe.

With the devs' promise to focus more on Europe this year of 2019, and with a seemingly renewed interest in the suggestions forum, it is time for me to talk a bit about some of these things that have been bothering me in particularly and some ideas or inspiration on how to make these potentially massive political changes into something a bit more worthwhile in a mechanical sense.

  • Forming the HRE
    "Never Form Greyskin" is advice that has long annoyed me. This stems from the fact that reforming the HRE is significantly weaker and less desirable than simply maintaining the immensely powerful "Revoke the Privilegia" decision. Not only does uniting the HRE hurt you militarily from the loss of your vassal swarm and a far lower force limit, it also hurts you by stripping every other bonus acquired from the various reforms.
    To put it into perspective, upon reforming into the HRE tag, you lose:
    -5% construction cost
    -5% development cost
    +1 Diplomat
    +1 Diplomatic Reputation
    +0.5% yearly legitimacy
    -10% core creation cost
    +20% yearly tax income
    +0.5% yearly prestige
    The strongest vassal swarm in the game
    While you do get a permanent modifier called "Rome Reborn", which gives you +1 yearly prestige and +5% national tax modifier, I truly don't believe this is enough to justify forming the Holy Roman Empire.
    Therefore, my suggestion in this regard is twofold:
    1. The "Rome Reborn" modifier should include the other Emperor reform bonuses as well, similar to how the Nahuatl religion gets its various bonuses from reforming its religion. I think the HRE is difficult enough to form to warrant keeping these bonuses upon uniting the tag.
    2. HRE Ideas. As a centralized Holy Roman Empire is a bit closer to the "fantasy" spectrum in the game, it allows the developers to get a bit more creative with their National Idea set. My reasoning is that if the Roman Empire gets a good idea set, why shouldn't the Reich?

    I feel that these two changes would add a bit more incentive to actually clicking "Renovatio Imperii" and, while not being overtly better than keeping the vassal swarm, could at least make it somewhat more of a choice rather than a mistake. Furthermore, I think the HRE would be a great nation to create a unique government reform/type for, such as increased state count, faster autonomy reduction, or other bonus to rule its new, vast swathes of territory.

  • Dissolving the HRE
    Looking in the opposite direction, the HRE is an extremely important aspect of European politics and a massive part of what makes playing on the continent special. It's strange to me that such a massive part of European life being dismantled gives 100 prestige and... that's it. This was a feat that took no less than a military mastermind at the helm of one of Europe's most powerful nations to accomplish, and when you accomplish it in the game, it feels like nothing. Especially since you will likely already have high prestige should you be strong enough to dissolve the HRE anyway.
    I'd suggest some form of permanent modifier for the nation that dissolves the HRE, perhaps a permanent prestige gain, core creation reduction, or some other worthwhile bonus.

  • The Kingdom of Jerusalem
    Turning East, to the Holy Land, I'd like to touch upon the Crusader State of Jerusalem. One of the earliest forms of European "colonialism", Jerusalem was a significant foothold in the failed attempt to drive back Islam from former Roman lands and an effort to unite Christianity against an outside threat, rather than tearing itself apart.
    In-game, we have the option of releasing Jerusalem. We lose the "Conquest of Jerusalem" modifier, granting +1 yearly prestige and a missionary in exchange for 25 prestige and a small AI controlled nation that will likely die very quickly. The question is: why would we ever want to do this? This decision needs to be much more significant and actually have a worthwhile reward not only in recreating the destroyed Kingdom, but also in ensuring its survival.
    I propose releasing Jerusalem give a "historical friends" opinion modifier between Jerusalem and its liberator (possibly even creating Jerusalem as a march or ally upon creation), as well as perhaps a lengthy prestige gain modifier. Furthermore, so long as Jerusalem exists as a nation independent of Muslim rule (IE, Jerusalem is Catholic and is not subject to a Muslim), the whole of Catholicism receive a small bonus to Tolerance of the True Faith.
    Unrelated: Jerusalem should probably have its ideas looked at and would also be a good candidate for unique government reforms.

  • The Kingdom of God
    Finally, the Pope himself. It is no secret that the Kingdom of God is just as fantasy as it is a poor decision. I myself was disappointed upon the first time I passed this decision. It disables the curia (thereby ruining Catholicism for every nation practicing it), but also grants the Papal States a very weak bonus (10% global manpower, +1 yearly prestige, and +1 yearly devotion). While I do think the bonus in itself is fine as is, I don't think it is enough to make this reform beneficial.
    As a solution, I propose the Papal States not only retaining this bonus upon forming the Kingdom of God, but, rather than dissolving the curia, instead keep it and make it so that only the Papal State control the curia from then on out. Not only would this make it a much more powerful decision for the Papal States, it would also not completely ostracize the rest of the Catholic Nations as they would still be able to gain and spend Papal influence on the various other Catholic bonuses. Furthermore, this decision should be the path for the Papal States to gain the Empire rank.
In conclusion, these four decisions in the game are very weak and, as a result, lose a lot of their immersive impact and flavor. While I will not incessantly argue that my suggestions are the best way to go about improving these decisions, I will stand behind the idea that all four of these do need some sort of change in how they are implemented and rewarded. This, I think, could make these decisions much more worthwhile in pursuing and achieving, and will make finally accomplishing them actually feel like something new or interesting.
Thank you for taking the time to read this thread and I hope you have a good rest of your week.
 
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I think the liberator of Jerusalem should get a permanent +1 missionary too as long as Jerusalem holds Jerusalem, the bonuses mentioned isn't worth losing out in a missionary imo. It is a great idea to give all catholics a small bonus though, gives incentive for other catholics to want it to survive.
 
Dissolving the HRE
Looking in the opposite direction, the HRE is an extremely important aspect of European politics and a massive part of what makes playing on the continent special. It's strange to me that such a massive part of European life being dismantled gives 100 prestige and... that's it. This was a feat that took no less than a military mastermind at the helm of one of Europe's most powerful nations to accomplish, and when you accomplish it in the game, it feels like nothing. Especially since you will likely already have high prestige should you be strong enough to dissolve the HRE anyway.
I'd suggest some form of permanent modifier for the nation that dissolves the HRE, perhaps a permanent prestige gain, core creation reduction, or some other worthwhile bonus.

What about implementing maluses other than a bonus?
The maluses would be in primis for the Emperor who stands utterly defeated and humiliated (and is no longer an emperor), and then for the Electors and maybe for every Prince.
These maluses could be temporary (stability loss, prestige loss, legitimacy loss, power projection loss, etc) or permanent. This would help to unite the HRE towards an invader that gets too greedy.

PS: there should be a pop up event announcing the End of the HRE for every European Nation, with information on what HRE Reform bonuses a nation (if in the HRE) will lose, so that it's easier to realise for new players.
 
I don't think that disolving the HRE is too bad. The indirect reward is being able to expand at will through Europe without having to worry about increased AE, unlawful territory, or the Emperor (and allies) joining in against you with every war that you fight. I agree that the others could definitely be improved, though.
 
I think the liberator of Jerusalem should get a permanent +1 missionary too as long as Jerusalem holds Jerusalem,
I can get behind that.
These maluses could be temporary (stability loss, prestige loss,
a prestige loss would certainly be fitting. Not sure about the stability or legitimacy hit though. When the real Holy Roman Empire was dissolved, it was obviously utterly humiliating for Austria, but it didn’t really cause any internal strife nor did it really affect the electors. Granted, this could be argued because the HRE was already a shadow of itself and most states would have already “left” it.
 
Reuniting Islam is Terrible since one of its main requirements is being fully Sunni and it gives you missionary bonuses like wtf

I wish a reformed caliphate was a thing to make as Rome is to Europe
 
Reuniting Islam is Terrible since one of its main requirements is being fully Sunni and it gives you missionary bonuses like wtf

I wish a reformed caliphate was a thing to make as Rome is to Europe
To be fair in that case it does give you a bonus missionary to convert the infidels. It has SOME use...
 
Dakkadakka127 said:
Dissolving the HRE
Looking in the opposite direction, the HRE is an extremely important aspect of European politics and a massive part of what makes playing on the continent special. It's strange to me that such a massive part of European life being dismantled gives 100 prestige and... that's it. This was a feat that took no less than a military mastermind at the helm of one of Europe's most powerful nations to accomplish, and when you accomplish it in the game, it feels like nothing. Especially since you will likely already have high prestige should you be strong enough to dissolve the HRE anyway.
I'd suggest some form of permanent modifier for the nation that dissolves the HRE, perhaps a permanent prestige gain, core creation reduction, or some other worthwhile bonus.
The dissolution of the HRE was as much (maybe even more so) due to its own shortcomings as due to Napoleon's intervention. Most of the larger princes (Prussia for example) didn't have any interest in keeping the HRE alive and only abided to it's rules if it benefitted them (and happily breaking them if it didn't). Even one emperor (I belive it was Leopold II., but I'm sure at all) created a committee to find out if it was still worth the effort to keep the crown, or if it were more beneficial to just stop bothering. When the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss came around (which, by the way, was accepted by the imperial diet, not forced upon it), most of the benefectors (including Austria) were more then happy to integrate their unfortunate neighbours. None of them cared that it was against many of the HREs "laws".
Therefore I actually think that the +100 prestige are appropriate (at least for the current mechanic).
 
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Reuniting Islam is Terrible since one of its main requirements is being fully Sunni and it gives you missionary bonuses like wtf
Personally I like uniting Islam but it would be neat if there was some way to change the tag name to include “Caliphate” in its suffix, similar to how tags used to get “Revolutionary” places in front of their name when they became revolutionary target.
Therefore I actually think that the +100 prestige are appropriate (at least for the current mechanic).
Maybe. Dissolving the HRE is probably the lowest concern in my list to me, but when you dissolve the HRE while already being at 100 prestige it feels... pretty meh.
 
To be fair in that case it does give you a bonus missionary to convert the infidels. It has SOME use...
Yeah but again in order for the decision to be made you need to be at 100% religious unity. Meaning it's great for further conquests but unless you pick those provinces early and keep your conquers heathens very low you will have to stop your conquest to fire it. It gives missionary bonuses, a missionary, stability core cost reduction. for 200adm/dip/mil (will only take100) 100%religious unity and a myriad of provinces access three continents. I wish at the very least it would give you a special CB against Muslim countries to truly unify islam
 
Yeah but again in order for the decision to be made you need to be at 100% religious unity.
The more I think about it, the stranger this seems to me. For the most part, Islamic Nations (including the various Caliphates) preferred to have a small ruling elite of Muslims with a larger group of infidel subjects. While they, of course, wouldn’t actively prevent people from converting to Islam, it goes without saying that the various Islamic Empires benefited from having larger non-Muslim populations since they were able to impose the Dhimmi taxes and receive more money.