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humancalculator said:
Will there be dev diaries during the holiday season (around Christmas, especially if the update day falls on a major holiday)? :confused:
IIRC that's never been the case.

If a diary is due to be delivered on any given holiday (in Sweden), even for a single non-working day, history tells us not to expect anything. Johan has been known to give away "complimentary" diaries though, for us to feast on before a prolonged holiday - but expect a dry spell once christmas kicks in...
 
Dakk said:
IIRC that's never been the case.

If a diary is due to be delivered on any given holiday (in Sweden), even for a single non-working day, history tells us not to expect anything. Johan has been known to give away "complimentary" diaries though, for us to feast on before a prolonged holiday - but expect a dry spell once christmas kicks in...
:( Oh well, I guess that the relaxation given by the break will make the final product better. ;)
 
Johan said:
As mentioned at the top of diary leadership is your educated people. These aren’t just the top the university graduates, in fact it is the exact opposite. If we look at the Manhattan project there were over 130,000 people working on it and not all of these went onto to win a Nobel Prize for Physics. All research projects in our time frame relied on these support people to make them happen, and this is Leadership. The top graduates are represented by your nations accumulated theory value and can only give you benefits for projects where their skills apply, while the clerks, secretaries, draftsmen, chemists, physics etc. who are the unsung heroes of wartime research, they can work anywhere.

In order to make our task of game balance easier these leadership points are consumed when you do research. We do acknowledge that the people you assign to projects will become steadily more experienced and don’t just disappear and this is also held as your accumulated theory value. The more you research in an area the less leadership points you will need to advance in a field. Similarly for practical values, having a number of tanks to work with already means you need to expend less effort to advance in a field.

I also mention the officer corps, to put your minds at rest the divisional level and above leaders you had in Hearts of Iron and Hearts of Iron 2 are still there. These represent the Officers and NCOs below divisional rank. These are the men supplied the glue that held your divisions together. As you invest more in leadership your divisions can take more punishment. Taking casualties, building more troops, plus the occasional officer purge will mean your units will fall apart more easily in combat.

Johan, I think we all seem to agree that the concept you are developing here is exactly right. But the terminology used is definitely wrong.

Looking at the Manhattan Project - Robert Oppenheimer was the leader, and exercised leadership over the direction of the work carried out by the other 129,999 people involved. Some of these, in different management roles below Oppenheimer will have also exercised leadership over their particular part of the project, but discussing the mass of them many will have been engineers and scientists, but not all, and the correct terms to describe them IMO would be: specialists, technicians or professionals.

Outside of technical research, "technicians" would probably not be correct. And may not have been in usage at that time anyway.

In the military context, the men you mention - from NCO's to Colonel - mainly exercised leadership over the men below them, but not always. They will have included the staff officers, quartermasters, medical officers, etc. Nevertheless, I accept that the leadership of the junior officers and NCO's in the combat battalions might be critical for the morale and organisation of the troops in individual ground combat operations. But the game scale is far higher than that, and it is important that the concept we are dealing with here is not confused with the individual "leaders" named in the game. Including, in the military context, the leadership given by Maj.Gen. and above.

If we move out of the ground combat arena, then in the air forces, specialists and professionals were evident in the ground crew responsible for maintenance/repair of aircraft. In addition, the junior officer and NCO's involved in the combat wings, were not primarily exercising leadership over other men, but exercising highly skilled combat roles (pilot, navigator, etc.). In nearly every country these men will have been recruited amongst well-educated/skilled workers, and, dare I say it, almost exclusively amongst the upper and middle-classes.

If what we will have in HOI3 is a system representing that a significant proportion of the population of each country with the necessary educational level/skills/experience/background, can be recruited to:

1. Form the backbone of the frontline combat units in the army or navy, or form the entire combat units in the airforce
2. Carry out research on technical projects
3. Work for the Foreign Service/Diplomatic Corps
4. Work for the Intelligence Services
5. Work in industry building ships, airplanes, tanks (you didn't mention industry, I'm speculating here, that putting these guys into building an existing model of airplane rather than researching a new one, would lead to production bonuses?)

Then whatever this is called, it must be clearly differentiated from the military leadership system. The new system is going to have to be explained in the game manual, forums and Wiki etc. and I can see the use of "Leadership" in two different contexts causing some confusion, for some experienced HOI2 players, but also new people who come to HOI3.

It would seem to me better if the ONLY area of the manual/game that mentions "leaders"/"leadership" is in the context of military officers Maj.Gen. and above. Therefore another word should be used to describe your new concept for HOI3.

I prefer the term "Specialists".


I also think on a slightly more general issue, you might be better not to include any term with the word "Points". The screen shots show Italy with a manpower of 450 and, if I have understood the new game interface correctly, 6.45 of your proposed "Leadership Points". Personally, I would much prefer you to scale the manpower up to something which looked more realistic: "450,000" instead of "450" makes it look more real. So we would have an Infantry Division requires "10,000 men" instead of "10 manpower points".

Taking the same issue with the "Specialists" ("Leadership"), I would have (for example) Italy with "645,000 Specialists" and the Tech. Tree showing a major technical research project requires "25,000 Specialists" to be allocated to it for one year.

Or you need to recruit "3,000 Specialists" into the Army to form that new Infantry Division. So you are then only left with 642,000 Specialists for Research. Not really significant, unless you decide to build 20 new Infantry Divisions, and you are then left with only 585,000 Specialists, and it starts to impact on your research.

Or you keep sending your air units against targets that are very well-defended and the rate of loss of aircrew is so high that every few weeks you keep having to recruit 2,000 Specialists to replace them.

It's then far easier for a newbie (and for us!) to clearly understand what we are doing, and how building new units/replacing combat losses within units directly affects Research.
 
Yeah that would be what we find solace in. And beer.

Nothing like a little R&R (if one can call christmas that :p ) for the hard working devs to come up with good stuff to program once they´re back in office! :cool:

EDIT: I think I agree with every point made by potski. Good post.
 
how many of the 130,000 people even truly knew what they were working on


I myself produce military equipment under contract by the gov (so im not allowed to specify what i make)

Many of the people who work in the plant in assembly do not know what the application is of the product they assemble, they simply are told to assemble parts of the product, where they are then moved and assembled into the final product under supervision. more then 75% of the people involved know nothing of what is going on.

edit: The only ones who really have a true grasp of the project are the Engineer's. (even the technicians dont know, as they only test parts of a product to make sure its electronically working)
 
von_Manstein11 said:
how many of the 130,000 people even truly knew what they were working on


I myself produce military equipment under contract by the gov (so im not allowed to specify what i make)

Many of the people who work in the plant in assembly do not know what the application is of the product they assemble, they simply are told to assemble parts of the product, where they are then moved and assembled into the final product under supervision. more then 75% of the people involved know nothing of what is going on.

edit: The only ones who really have a true grasp of the project are the Engineer's. (even the technicians dont know, as they only test parts of a product to make sure its electronically working)

I think you are confusing manufacturing with R&D. A research endeavor certainly has support staff that are not cognizant, but by and large all members are key contributors. Manufactoring, by contrast, requires very few individuals who understand the big picture.
 
bbasgen said:
I think you are confusing manufacturing with R&D. A research endeavor certainly has support staff that are not cognizant, but by and large all members are key contributors. Manufactoring, by contrast, requires very few individuals who understand the big picture.
to give you an example,

A recent project from General Dynamics, the research was done by the R&D team over a 16 month period involving 14 engineer's from both my company as well as others.

once the product was ready for production. 3 engineering teams were given the task to bring it to production. The resulting assembly line saw 270 employee's without sufficient knowlege of what they were producing.


so out of a total of 293 people who were technically "responsible" for the development of the product, only 23 were a part of anything of significant application.

that means 8% of the total workforce were absolutely neccessary. the remaining 92% could of been anyone else picked off the street.

while they 92% did infact "contribute" they provideded nothing of significance to the proccess.


In game terms, a true development of a project would be overseen by a small group of highly educated personelle, and the remaining people involved have little impact other then the final production.
 
von_Manstein11 said:
that means 8% of the total workforce were absolutely neccessary. the remaining 92% could of been anyone else picked off the street. while they 92% did infact "contribute" they provideded nothing of significance to the proccess.

I think this is an oversimplification. Let's put it in game terms: in HOI2 you had technology teams, sometimes representing one man in the case of rocketry or nuclear teams, for example. In HOI3, Paradox has created a "leadership" pool (awful name) representing the thousands of individuals necessary.

The Manhattan project involved some 130,000 people, operating at 11 different sites. It was divided into a military and scientific branch. You can slice and dice the "most important" individuals in various ways, but I think it would be unreasonable to suggest that some 120,000 of the people who worked on the project "provided nothing of significance to the process".

So, if you have to choose between a technology system that represents 1 man, versus a system that shows the thousands necessary to perform R&D, I think the latter is clearly the right solution.
 
Johan said:
we toyed with replacing LD with "white collars" and MP with "blue collars".. but.. leadership is the one that felt best.. Intelligence felt wrong as well, as it conflicts with espionage etc.

Leadership is confusing as it conflicts with - Leadership (for troops).

In fact:

White Collars = Admin (Administration)
Blue Collars= Labour

In English, this works well.
 
sbr said:
I like the word hippopotamus.

Me too. It's like you're studdering but in fact you aren't.
 
Jos de trol said:
I like the word "cadre"
Кадры решают всё! - Cadres decide everything!

Alternatively, "intelligentsia". i'm sure a word will be found. Intelligentsia might be a bit too long, depending how it's placed in the user interface.

In any event, i liked the look of the map when it is zoomed out a bit. And it looks like the development process is including some good ideas. i remain enthused.
:D
 
Tskb18 said:
Alternatively, "intelligentsia". i'm sure a word will be found. Intelligentsia might be a bit too long, depending how it's placed in the user interface.

I'm sure every NCO would show you what he thinks about calling him member of "intelligentsia". And it would hurt. :D

Leadership is not that bad really, although misleading. "Specialists" is spot on - clear and perfectly fitting.

Alternatively, hippopotamus is interesting option.
 
Alojzy said:
"Specialists" is spot on - clear and perfectly fitting.
Except that I don't think the actual persons of the 'specialists' is what they are trying to represent here, exactly. I think what Johan is getting at is that this is an abstract representation of the skills, motivation, cleverness and determination present, to a greater or lesser degree, in all the folks represented by the "manpower" of the nation.

It's not that this is a separate "class" of individuals, distinct from all the "manpower", but that it is an attribute spread unevenly throughout the population passing through time. This is why I prefer a term like "expertise" - it's the quality that is being represented, not the people. It's an ingenious concept and has huge utility, I think.
 
bbasgen said:
Paradox is talking about the civilian workforce as opposed to a military recruiting pool. Victoria did this perfectly, but in way too much detail for HOI3.My suggested terms for both are: Specialists/Workforce/Staff/Professionals would all work much better than leadership. Leadership, when used in a military game, would be a misnomer for what PI actually means.
IMHO Professionals would be the best choice because it fits both the NCO's/officers and the clerk/engineer in the industry or research team. We talk of a person trained beyond compulsory school but who hasn’t necessarily studied at the university (esp. not in the 1930's or 1940's). Specialists might fit as well. /M