Could Germany have won the Battle of the Atlantic (WWII)

[Avernite]

Just take NA from France after the surrender. Gibraltar is closed and with U-Boats operating out of Casablanca the UK is in deep logistical trouble.

Well, given the difficulties the Italians had supplying Rommel, how easy is supplying the subs going to be?

Plus, of course, Gibraltar isn't taken (yet), so the british have a good naval base nearby. And how is Germany going to ensure NAfrica doesn't go Free French when Germany can't really enforce control yet?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I believe he means North Africa. As in, make Vicky France cede the necessary turf to close the straits of Gibraltar in the peace agreement.

Aye.

Well, given the difficulties the Italians had supplying Rommel, how easy is supplying the subs going to be?

Plus, of course, Gibraltar isn't taken (yet), so the british have a good naval base nearby. And how is Germany going to ensure NAfrica doesn't go Free French when Germany can't really enforce control yet?

Details details. Well you might be right but at least its a plan.

 

[keynes2.0]

Rommel was hard to supply because there were thousands of kilometers of desert between him and the port he was drawing supply.

 

[f1nalstand17]

I believe he means North Africa. As in, make Vicky France cede the necessary turf to close the straits of Gibraltar in the peace agreement.

Aye.

Ah ok, thanks.

Well, given the difficulties the Italians had supplying Rommel, how easy is supplying the subs going to be?
Plus, of course, Gibraltar isn't taken (yet), so the British have a good naval base nearby. And how is Germany going to ensure NAfrica doesn't go Free French when Germany can't really enforce control yet?

Who knows? There are too many variables to really know what would have happened. Something that Germany would definitely have to do is to co-operate with Italy and Vichy.

 

[Avernite]

Rommel was hard to supply because there were thousands of kilometers of desert between him and the port he was drawing supply.

That sure didn't help any, but where are you supplying Casablanca from? Shipping straight into it seems risky.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

That sure didn't help any, but where are you supplying Casablanca from?.

You supply it with submarines <---------- is of genius

 

[keynes2.0]

That sure didn't help any, but where are you supplying Casablanca from? Shipping straight into it seems risky.

Algeria? There was a railroad for decades at this point.

 

[Beagá]

Rommel was hard to supply because there were thousands of kilometers of desert between him and the port he was drawing supply.

That same applies to the brits, as they didn´t build Matildas or Shermans in Egypt.

Both sides could have logistical troubles. Germany just lacked the oooomph to do it.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Algeria? There was a railroad for decades at this point.

Yeah I just looked on a map and there was indeed one.

 

[keynes2.0]

That same applies to the brits, as they didn´t build Matildas or Shermans in Egypt.

Both sides could have logistical troubles. Germany just lacked the oooomph to do it.

Matildas and Shermans could be unloaded at a port that wasn't horribly overloaded and was way closer to the fighting. The British had a coastal railroad they could take from Alexandria to the frontline. The British only left this railroad behind when they were in a material position to drive all the way to Tunisia.

 

[f1nalstand17]

Matildas and Shermans could be unloaded at a port that wasn't horribly overloaded and was way closer to the fighting. The British had a coastal railroad they could take from Alexandria to the frontline. The British only left this railroad behind when they were in a material position to drive all the way to Tunisia.

Also IIRC, Rommel did not have a railroad either.

 

[krieger11b]

It would have required a few things.

First more U-Boots, and even with the argument of more destroyers by the UK in response, remember that ASW tactics and technology was crap until mid 1941. So more U-Boots means more effect, even with more destroyers.

Georing needed to be dead or fired. He prevented as much as he could the Kriegsmarine from having the desperately needed long range recon aircraft it needed to make U-Boots more effective.

After the fall of France the Luftwaffe needed to concentrate on British shipping within fighter cover range, they did do this early on before going after airfields, they needed to do both. Plus hitting oil refineries stockpiles, so then U-Boots could concentrate on shipping to Eastern Great Britain.

Finally not stop at this until the UK had to sign the white peace that Hitler wanted before the Battle of Britain. With little to no oil, the RN and RAF are useless and critically tractors for farming would be out of fuel.




In the end the easiest option for Germany was to immediately send an invasion by the his paratroops to Great Britain after Dunkirk when the UK was weakest. In the end it was ironically Hitler's love of the people of the UK that stopped him in critical early opportunities to win. He simply did not want to kill any more Britain's or their culture than absolutely needed.

 

[keynes2.0]

I cant imagine tractors are more then a tiny fraction of fuel needs. And if the Brits need more fuel they would just purchase more from the US...

As for invading after Dunkirk...
The French weren't actually beaten at that point. To stop the attack, allow them to reorganize and start diverting troops to a new front would result in French in Berlin before Germans in London.

 

[f1nalstand17]

I cant imagine tractors are more then a tiny fraction of fuel needs. And if the Brits need more fuel they would just purchase more from the US...

As for invading after Dunkirk...
The French weren't actually beaten at that point. To stop the attack, allow them to reorganize and start diverting troops to a new front would result in French in Berlin before Germans in London.

Well I think his point is to continue Fall Rot that would lead to the collapse of France historically, and use the paratroopers in a normally suicide mission to generate the huge amount of shock needed to gain peace with the British people.

 

[keynes2.0]

But the timeline just doesn't make sense. There's still weeks before France can be considered anything near secure. Sending paratroopers on a suicide mission when there's nothing to back them up isn't going to do anything except give the Brits a morale boost.

 

[f1nalstand17]

But the timeline just doesn't make sense. There's still weeks before France can be considered anything near secure. Sending paratroopers on a suicide mission when there's nothing to back them up isn't going to do anything except give the Brits a morale boost.

Good point. What about directly after the French surrender?

 

[Imgran]

By then British units are being requipped and deployed for home defense and are rapidly re-outfitting following the loss of equipment from Dunkirk (which allowed them to shed all their obsolete gear and replace it with state of the art stuff), the RN is in position and ready, and fighter production has been redlined and Britain is positioning itself to outproduce Germany in fighters within 6-7 months, which means that any aerial warfare over Britain has a definite window. The situation falls out much like it actually did at that point, any invasion being a suicidal gesture.

Once the Brits get their army home from Dunkirk, invading Britain militarily is effectively off the tableand any Luftwaffe effort aimed at anything other than RAF targets and fighter production works against German victory. The U-boats are on their own.

I think that's the thing about U-boat tactics in WWII that's so strange. Ultimately, the use of U-boats by Germany was kind of a thing unto itself, with whatever objectives you could achieve with them being mostly indirect, targeting morale more than anything. There were nowhere near enough U-boats to stop the covoys from getting through. I'm honestly at a loss to see how the U-boats were worth the resources Germany spent on them. I have to think the same resources going into producing more BF109's would have been a better way to spend them.

 

[Katsue]

IF Italy had its shit together AND Spain had joined the Axis, now we're talking!

Spain couldn't join the Axis because it was dependent on food imports from Canada.

 

[Beagá]

It would have required a few things.

First more U-Boots, and even with the argument of more destroyers by the UK in response, remember that ASW tactics and technology was crap until mid 1941. So more U-Boots means more effect, even with more destroyers.

Georing needed to be dead or fired. He prevented as much as he could the Kriegsmarine from having the desperately needed long range recon aircraft it needed to make U-Boots more effective.

After the fall of France the Luftwaffe needed to concentrate on British shipping within fighter cover range, they did do this early on before going after airfields, they needed to do both. Plus hitting oil refineries stockpiles, so then U-Boots could concentrate on shipping to Eastern Great Britain.

Finally not stop at this until the UK had to sign the white peace that Hitler wanted before the Battle of Britain. With little to no oil, the RN and RAF are useless and critically tractors for farming would be out of fuel.

In the end the easiest option for Germany was to immediately send an invasion by the his paratroops to Great Britain after Dunkirk when the UK was weakest. In the end it was ironically Hitler's love of the people of the UK that stopped him in critical early opportunities to win. He simply did not want to kill any more Britain's or their culture than absolutely needed.

Agree mostly, some extra points:

1- The way Battle of Britain was done it was both a tactical and strategical failure. What if it was used much more to help the italians in 1940? Specially to take Malta?

2- What if Germany DID have some kind of Afrika Korps already placed in 1940 before Compass?

3- What if they focused only on subs - No Bismarck/Tirpitz/battlecruisers and therefore could do more damage between 1940 and 41?

All those facts considered I think that, while STRATEGICAL victory in the sense of UK asking for peace would maybe not be enough (say what you guys think), at the very least allied casualties would be much higher and the campaign n North Afrika MUCH easier for a time.

 

[keynes2.0]

Agree mostly, some extra points:

1- The way Battle of Britain was done it was both a tactical and strategical failure. What if it was used much more to help the italians in 1940? Specially to take Malta?

Then you preserve some Italian shipping but dont change the fact that the invasion of Egypt is logistically nigh-impossible. And since you are giving the Brits an easier time in other theaters they have more resources to defend Egypt with.