Clergy shouldn't support national supremacy - can this still be fixed in the upcoming update?

[CaesarVincens]

The game *says* this, but in practice religious and cultural discrimination are treated differently. In particular religious discrimination does not matter so much for migration as culture does, mass migrations will not happen if a pop would be culturally discriminated at the target, but they will still happen if the pop would be religiously discriminated. Market migration is similarly less restricted by religious discrimination than cultural migration.

True, plus assimilation of culture can only occur will culturally accepted pops while conversion of religion can only occur with religiously discriminated pops.

Yet another game mechanic that isn't quite clear enough in game.

 

[Ivashanko]

This is exactly the situation we're dealing with, yes. While there's plenty of examples of xenophobic trends in religious communities there are also a lot of examples of egalitarian religious movements. Treating them all the same way plays into the gameplay conceit of organized religion being predominantly a conservative force, but it's is not a great representation of reality. What we need are more ideology variations depending on the faith the Devout are meant to represent, and likely more nuance in Leader ideologies as well (since leader ideologies are meant to represent shifting trends, movements, or factions within an IG). It's not something we're able to do in time for 1.7, unfortunately, but enhancements to gameplay around cultures and religions is something that's climbing higher and higher up on our list of priorities. We'll publish a revised roadmap after 1.7 / SoI with more on this.

This is wonderful news!

Different nations' IGs desperately need elements that distinguish them. The game has a few special IGs for some nations already, but a full rework is probably necessary.

It's a happy coincidence that what is good for making the game more historical is also good for gameplay! You can make different nations more unique simply by making their IGs more historical.

 

[Shiny Dog]

Yeah, at the very least many Clergy should support Cultural Exclusion.
I don't think they should support Multiculturalism all the time though, since many national values aren't completely divorced from religious values and as a result the Clergy would consider accepting all traditions a bridge too far.

 

[Ivashanko]

Yeah, at the very least many Clergy should support Cultural Exclusion.
I don't think they should support Multiculturalism all the time though, since many national values aren't completely divorced from religious values and as a result the Clergy would consider accepting all traditions a bridge too far.

I feel like "multicultural" shouldn't exist as a policy, at least not as it is current portrayed in the game. If there was a single example of a multicultural society throughout the era of V3, I have yet to hear of it.

V3 will hopefully one day split "acceptance" in twain: "legal acceptance" and "societal acceptance". That alone will help the simulation.

 

[MrNoobomnenie]

I feel like "multicultural" shouldn't exist as a policy, at least not as it is current portrayed in the game. If there was a single example of a multicultural society throughout the era of V3, I have yet to hear of it.

1920s USSR. In fact, they were going much further than just "accepting" other cultures - there were full scale affirmative action programs for ethnic minorites (most of them were later undone by Stalin though).

 

[Duarte]

multiculturalism in game functionally models american style assimilationism, not actually soviet style re-nationalisation policies under lenin, or any sort of "live and let live" notion of multiculturalism, so really it's more a issue with the name being misleading than anything else

 

[Al-Khalidi]

1920s USSR. In fact, they were going much further than just "accepting" other cultures - there were full scale affirmative action programs for ethnic minorites (most of them were later undone by Stalin though).

Did those affirmative action programs also involve violent efforts of eradication of Polish identity, including forced expulsions in the late 20s, as well as killing or expelling tens of thousands of Central Asian Muslims during the Basmachi revolt? That was all for 20s. Needless to mention what came next, but even 20s they engaged in violent suppression of identities.

I suppose soviets might have tried to appease some minorities, but their appeoach was far from multiculturalism.

 

[Ivashanko]

Did those affirmative action programs also involve violent efforts of eradication of Polish identity, including forced expulsions in the late 20s, as well as killing or expelling tens of thousands of Central Asian Muslims during the Basmachi revolt? That was all for 20s. Needless to mention what came next, but even 20s they engaged in violent suppression of identities.

I suppose soviets might have tried to appease some minorities, but their appeoach was far from multiculturalism.

Not to mention that the first de-Cossackization started in 1919.

It is a common myth amongst communist and particularly Leninist Sympathisers that everything that went wrong in the USSR was Stalin's fault, but it is just that: a myth.

 

[TitaniumMan91]

multiculturalism in game functionally models american style assimilationism, not actually soviet style re-nationalisation policies under lenin, or any sort of "live and let live" notion of multiculturalism, so really it's more a issue with the name being misleading than anything else

I don't think it's misleading, that's what I've always understood multiculturalism to be in the first place.

The term multiculturalism has a range of meanings within the contexts of sociology, political philosophy, and colloquial use. In sociology and in everyday usage, it is a synonym for ethnic pluralism, with the two terms often used interchangeably, and for cultural pluralism[1] in which various ethnic and cultural groups exist in a single society. It can describe a mixed ethnic community area where multiple cultural traditions exist (such as New York City, London or Paris) or a single country within which they do (such as Switzerland, Belgium or Russia). Groups associated with an indigenous, aboriginal or autochthonous ethnic group and settler-descended ethnic groups are often the focus.[2]

In reference to sociology, multiculturalism is the end-state of either a natural or artificial process (for example: legally controlled immigration) and occurs on either a large national scale or on a smaller scale within a nation's communities. On a smaller scale this can occur artificially when a jurisdiction is established or expanded by amalgamating areas with two or more different cultures (e.g. French Canada and English Canada). On a large scale, it can occur as a result of either legal or illegal migration to and from different jurisdictions around the world.

In reference to political science, multiculturalism can be defined as a state's capacity to effectively and efficiently deal with cultural plurality within its sovereign borders. Multiculturalism as a political philosophy involves ideologies and policies which vary widely.[3] It has been described as a "salad bowl" and as a "cultural mosaic",[4] in contrast to a "melting pot".

I think the game fairly accurately represent definitions 1 and 3 while 2 isn't something that exists outside of bespoke cultures (Afro-American/Caribbean) but which I would like to see more of to hopefully cut down on pop splitting in the late game.

 

[MrNoobomnenie]

It is a common myth amongst communist and particularly Leninist Sympathisers that everything that went wrong in the USSR was Stalin's fault, but it is just that: a myth.

What's amusing about anti-communists, is that whenever they talk about AES states, even a single bad policy is always enough to completely invalidate all of the other policies these countries had, regardless how exceptionally progressive and decades ahead of the time they were

 

[Al-Khalidi]

What's amusing about anti-communists, is that whenever they talk about AES states, even a single bad policy is always enough to completely invalidate all of the other policies these countries had, regardless how exceptionally progressive and decades ahead of the time they were

"They put your grandparents in a gulag for having a shop but omg have you seen their posters with women holding hammers? So cool." I'd recommend leaving advocacy of totalitarian regimes guilty of mass crimes against humanity out of this thread

 

[Ivashanko]

What's amusing about anti-communists, is that whenever they talk about AES states, even a single bad policy is always enough to completely invalidate all of the other policies these countries had, regardless how exceptionally progressive and decades ahead of the time they were

What's amusing about you- and here I'll be sure to say that this does not apply to all communists, I'm specifically talking about you- is that you have, apparently of your own free will, decided to take the time to defend genocidal action. I've written a dozen snarky replies, but I've decided to just put you on ignore and move on. Less work for the mods.

The early 20th century in Eastern Europe was a horrific and brutal time, and there are no heroes there. I'm not saying Lenin's USSR was worse than the states that immediately preceded it, or the ones that neighboured it. But whatever else it might've been, one thing it was not was a multicultural utopia.

 

[Duarte]

I don't think it's misleading, that's what I've always understood multiculturalism to be in the first place.

I think the game fairly accurately represent definitions 1 and 3 while 2 isn't something that exists outside of bespoke cultures (Afro-American/Caribbean) but which I would like to see more of to hopefully cut down on pop splitting in the late game.

eh i guess it's sort of an intentionality thing, theoretically multiculturalism (the definitions you posted) at least implicitly do not promote the assimilation of those cultures in a either a hybrid or a previously extant culture, how ever multiculturalist in game *will* assimilate every culture in that state (bar cultural homelands) to the primary culture oof the state, in fact any given screen shot showcasing radical cultural changes in game are achieved using multiculturalism to mass assimilate the migrants, so again it depends on what one understands multiculturalism to imply.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

As I'm in a (relatively) good mood I'm closing the thread rather than issuing infractions left, right and centre. (See what I did there?)

Again, this is NOT the place for IRL historical analysis.