CK3 Summer Teaser #2

[dunka2]

I don't think 'Egalitarian' really fits the effects nor the description. Egalitarian would describe a culture that values equality of all members of society (not necessarily including those of other cultures. See France, USSR, and contemporary China). 'Cosmopolitan', 'Multicultural', or perhaps even 'Sophisticated' would fit better here as that does describe a culture that puts value in accepting and embracing other cultures and their differences. Sophisticated might not work as Courtly also has the connotation of sophistication

An Egalitarian ethos would probably remove the negatives from peasant leader, prestige hit from marrying a person of a lower status, lower relations with cultures of other ethos, most especially the Courtly ethos as that seems to be inherently elitist ('a place for everyone and everyone in their place'), enable equal male-female inheritance, and perhaps lower prestige gain in general.

Incidentally this would fit he Basque culture, while cosmopolitan would not fit, at least in my mind. They've maintained their unique culture (and genetic makeup) for fully 2000+ years. Not exactly the definition of cosmopolitan.

 

[SauronGorthaur]

haha yeah that description is pretty much polands history

Not the time period covered by CK3. Let alone the starting dates. Under Bolesław Chroby (the first king of Poland) in particular, whose reign ended shortly before the second starting date, Poland was wildly opportunistic and aggressive.

 

[ArVass]

Whoever keeps downvoting this one without explanation, do you just hate me or you actually have a better suggestion?

So since no answer came I guess it's the former way, haters gonna hate and all. Stoic is still the one that fits Hungarian the best among the seven or so Ethoses, as things currently stand.

 

[JackMcManus]

Why people keep asking "why x culture does have y?" or "z culture should have w!!!" ???
Aren't this just teasers and not real traditions associated with cultures?

Are we really making this thread a "My culture is better than yours" thread? Really?

 

[ArVass]

Why people keep asking "why x culture does have y?" or "z culture should have w!!!" ???
Aren't this just teasers and not real traditions associated with cultures?

Are we really making this thread a "My culture is better than yours" thread? Really?

It's literally not about that at all, it actually is just choosing something that resonates with actual people's actual culture, who would love to play the game in a way that historical or just general inaccuracies don't ruin the experience, unlike they often do for some reason. Guessing, suggesting, complaining is not "mY cUlTuRe Is BeTtEr ThAn YoUrS" whining, it's guessing, suggesting, and complaining about historical inaccuracies, literally not a single person has said anything even vaguely similar to those lines in this thread at all.

 

[JackMcManus]

Oh boy, were gonna have so many Stellaris style "the very generic amd vague name of this particular ethos doesn't match my personal interpretation of it so fix now!" arguments after this comes out. AND we get to combine it the usual nationalism too! I love this new culture system and can't wait to actually play around with it but damn, I can just see the constant argument threads it's gonna spark based on definitions and modern stereotypes.

i also think people on this thread are just acting stupid. i bet my left kidney that the guy who said "HUnGaRIAN HaS To hAvE The stoIC EtHOS!!11!!1" is hungarian.

 

[JackMcManus]

It's literally not about that at all, it actually is just choosing something that resonates with actual people's actual culture, who would love to play the game in a way that historical or just general inaccuracies don't ruin the experience, unlike they often do for some reason. Guessing, suggesting, complaining is not "mY cUlTuRe Is BeTtEr ThAn YoUrS" whining, it's guessing, suggesting, and complaining about historical inaccuracies, literally not a single person has said anything even vaguely similar to those lines in this thread at all.

it's not my fault that i read this into the comments. Just take a look at the first ones.

also i think that these comments are way off the mark because those 2 summer teasers are meant to show some of the modifiers tied to the new traditions and ethos, but people there are transforming it in "which culture has to have the most OP traits? of course mine!"

 

[Riamus]

I really don't see anyone really saying their culture has to have the best traits. It's more along the lines of either 1) their custom culture needs to have the best traits, so they want to choose the best ethos and traditions, or 2) the ethos (or traditions in the other thread) don't historically fit the culture they are tied to. Neither of those is about making their real culture OP.

Still, I do think the threads have gotten a bit too critical, but that just my personal feeling. I'm one to allow for things to be a bit off from reality in a game. If it generally fits, even if it's not ideal, I'm usually fine with it. Of course, that's mainly because I don't care much about it being historical and I'm not from any country within the game even though I have an ancestor who was given a title in England by one of the Viking conquerors, IIRC.

 

[ArVass]

i also think people on this thread are just acting stupid. i bet my left kidney that the guy who said "HUnGaRIAN HaS To hAvE The stoIC EtHOS!!11!!1" is hungarian.

And why tf is that a problem? Yes I am a Hungarian who knows Hungarian history and mentality, and how it changed throughout history, and I am pretty sure that:
- Communal and Innovative definitely wouldn't fit it during the middle ages. Communal's description mentioning "working together" is not something that I believe ever was true for them, and Innovative's research and development bonus is something that does not fit medieval Hungary's low population, kind of backwards society which was nearly always among the last ones to adopt new innovations and ideas in the Catholic Europe.
- there are arguments to be made for Egalitarian, Bellicose, Spiritual, and Courtly, as there were ideas and features in the country's society in different eras that resembled them, however, neither is a really good fit. Egalitarian might fit it as a culture living together with a lot of other cultures for a long time, for gameplay reasons, but technically there's no more argument for it to be made apart from that, foreign culture rulers were often rebelled or conspired against (see how Sigismund of Luxemburg was held hostage by his vassal nobles, even though he tried to please his vassals by embracing their language and culture from a pretty young age). Bellicose fits the conquering-raiding-pillaging Magyars, but that's a different culture in CK3; Hungarian military history since the battle of Lechfeld, apart from a few successful campaigns, was hot garbage, being offensive militarists doesn't fit them. The house of Árpád managed to produce a record amount of Saints while they lasted, however that's more like a dynastic perk so to speak, and while the country is often called the Shield of Christianity, that's probably only in relation to the neighboring non-Christian threats to the East and latter the South, in general I am not sure that medieval Hungarians were particularly Spiritual at all. I have no idea why I even put Courtly here, since I can't even really come up with any real argument in its favour, apart from Matthias Hunyadi's renessaince court, which was more like an exception than the rule.
- we are left with Stoic, which is all about defense, and fits Hungarian culture and history and culture better than the rest; first of all, Hungarian military generally performs slightly better when defending, and part of the cultural shift after the battle of Lechfeld was about "going defensive". Foreign military incursions were generally repelled more effectively than how successful Hungarian campaigns to foreign lands were; and most impotantly, Hungarian people are characteristically only brought together when in crisis or foreign danger, as noted by various people, and that is my own personal impression aswell, both for modern and historical times. Thus, the one to fit Hungarian the best is Stoic, and that's not a "mY cUlTuRe Is BeTtEr" thing. Literally just fys.

 

[ArVass]

And why tf is that a problem? Yes I am a Hungarian who knows Hungarian history and mentality, and how it changed throughout history, and I am pretty sure that:
- Communal and Innovative definitely wouldn't fit it during the middle ages. Communal's description mentioning "working together" is not something that I believe ever was true for them, and Innovative's research and development bonus is something that does not fit medieval Hungary's low population, kind of backwards society which was nearly always among the last ones to adopt new innovations and ideas in the Catholic Europe.
- there are arguments to be made for Egalitarian, Bellicose, Spiritual, and Courtly, as there were ideas and features in the country's society in different eras that resembled them, however, neither is a really good fit. Egalitarian might fit it as a culture living together with a lot of other cultures for a long time, for gameplay reasons, but technically there's no more argument for it to be made apart from that, foreign culture rulers were often rebelled or conspired against (see how Sigismund of Luxemburg was held hostage by his vassal nobles, even though he tried to please his vassals by embracing their language and culture from a pretty young age). Bellicose fits the conquering-raiding-pillaging Magyars, but that's a different culture in CK3; Hungarian military history since the battle of Lechfeld, apart from a few successful campaigns, was hot garbage, being offensive militarists doesn't fit them. The house of Árpád managed to produce a record amount of Saints while they lasted, however that's more like a dynastic perk so to speak, and while the country is often called the Shield of Christianity, that's probably only in relation to the neighboring non-Christian threats to the East and latter the South, in general I am not sure that medieval Hungarians were particularly Spiritual at all. I have no idea why I even put Courtly here, since I can't even really come up with any real argument in its favour, apart from Matthias Hunyadi's renessaince court, which was more like an exception than the rule.
- we are left with Stoic, which is all about defense, and fits Hungarian culture and history and culture better than the rest; first of all, Hungarian military generally performs slightly better when defending, and part of the cultural shift after the battle of Lechfeld was about "going defensive". Foreign military incursions were generally repelled more effectively than how successful Hungarian campaigns to foreign lands were; and most impotantly, Hungarian people are characteristically only brought together when in crisis or foreign danger, as noted by various people, and that is my own personal impression aswell, both for modern and historical times. Thus, the one to fit Hungarian the best is Stoic, and that's not a "mY cUlTuRe Is BeTtEr" thing. Literally just fys.

(Funny how y'all still cannot disprove what I'm saying and instead just place down le disagree button because you can't admit being wrong about my and other people's intentions)

 

[Nikolai II]

can we expect traditions to guide AI in any direction or are they purely modifiers?

also, Egalitarian ethos seems to be the opposite from the Isolationist tradition, can we expect some traditions to be enabled/disabled with certain ethos?

We accept all differences, but we draw very clear divisions between what is an acceptable difference and what is not.

 

[Debris94]

And why tf is that a problem? Yes I am a Hungarian who knows Hungarian history and mentality, and how it changed throughout history, and I am pretty sure that:
- Communal and Innovative definitely wouldn't fit it during the middle ages. Communal's description mentioning "working together" is not something that I believe ever was true for them, and Innovative's research and development bonus is something that does not fit medieval Hungary's low population, kind of backwards society which was nearly always among the last ones to adopt new innovations and ideas in the Catholic Europe.
- there are arguments to be made for Egalitarian, Bellicose, Spiritual, and Courtly, as there were ideas and features in the country's society in different eras that resembled them, however, neither is a really good fit. Egalitarian might fit it as a culture living together with a lot of other cultures for a long time, for gameplay reasons, but technically there's no more argument for it to be made apart from that, foreign culture rulers were often rebelled or conspired against (see how Sigismund of Luxemburg was held hostage by his vassal nobles, even though he tried to please his vassals by embracing their language and culture from a pretty young age). Bellicose fits the conquering-raiding-pillaging Magyars, but that's a different culture in CK3; Hungarian military history since the battle of Lechfeld, apart from a few successful campaigns, was hot garbage, being offensive militarists doesn't fit them. The house of Árpád managed to produce a record amount of Saints while they lasted, however that's more like a dynastic perk so to speak, and while the country is often called the Shield of Christianity, that's probably only in relation to the neighboring non-Christian threats to the East and latter the South, in general I am not sure that medieval Hungarians were particularly Spiritual at all. I have no idea why I even put Courtly here, since I can't even really come up with any real argument in its favour, apart from Matthias Hunyadi's renessaince court, which was more like an exception than the rule.
- we are left with Stoic, which is all about defense, and fits Hungarian culture and history and culture better than the rest; first of all, Hungarian military generally performs slightly better when defending, and part of the cultural shift after the battle of Lechfeld was about "going defensive". Foreign military incursions were generally repelled more effectively than how successful Hungarian campaigns to foreign lands were; and most impotantly, Hungarian people are characteristically only brought together when in crisis or foreign danger, as noted by various people, and that is my own personal impression aswell, both for modern and historical times. Thus, the one to fit Hungarian the best is Stoic, and that's not a "mY cUlTuRe Is BeTtEr" thing. Literally just fys.

They are simply having a difficulty with the following (
Some of you are a little too picky and negative towards change and maybe should consider that to be alternative history/counter factual history Crusader Kings 3 would have to be a mixture of so called realistic factual (since it seems to me that evidence could be actually interpreted to the investigators', historians', archaeologists', and anthropologists' preconceived ideas/philosophies in order to get the evidence to fit within their individual particular preconceived beliefs/philosophies) and theoretical/imaginative alternative created possibilities. For example the discussions on the Basque culture and history could vary depending on whether it is historians', archaeologists', and anthropologists of the diffusionist perspective looking at the evidence or historians, archaeologists, and anthropologists who are skeptical of the diffusionist perspective looking at the same set of evidence. )


being a strong possibility in being the game designers intentions for Crusader Kings 3 due to the following Crusader Kings 3 features (Rewrite Medieval History
Dynasties will change and adapt to changes in family and politics, swimming in a rich world of religious faith and royal pageantry.- Basically creating Alternative History)


And so with that Rewriting Medieval history cultures such as the Polish culture, or even the Hungarian culture or the Basque culture wouldn't necessarily remain so called historically accurately the same by the 21st century due to those cultures being used as examples having their historical/cultural timeline being branched off from the accepted original version but the so called historically accuracy crusader kings 3 players are having obviously strong issues with such possible Crusader Kings 3 gameplay(obviously with how much they are reacting to my original comment politely disagreeing). Does that explain your query to you.

 

[Karlington]

Sigh. I should have seen it coming.

Hahaha, it never ends for you! I hope your own RL culture has the Stoic ethos, fried.

 

[Nevars]

fried.

Hmm is this a new way to roast someone on the internet that I missing about? jk lol

 

[Fac0810]

Hmm is this a new way to roast someone on the internet that I missing about? jk lol

not to roast, but to fry

 

[Frigabus]

Characteristics (Ethoses, Pillars, whatever) attached to cultures seem to have caused a much greater debate than it was in the case of religions. A very sensitive topic, indeed. Many players will start the game with dissatisfaction that their chosen (perhaps their own real) culture has not got the features they think are right. Giving the players the opportunity to change the characteristics of their ruler's culture at game start may help this.

 

[TempestM]

attached to cultures seem to have caused a much greater debate than it was in the case of religions.

Because most religions were so wrong (like some heresies), useless (like Conversos that never appear) or obviously will need expansions (like Catholicism) that there's not much to discuss about them, they are either made ridiculous on some purpose, or won't get fixed until accompanying DLC will be made in due time
. Also we got al those religion at launch, when we got the whole game, not focused on one aspect like we are here, with DDs focused on cultures.
And in the end many DID get plenty of discussions, like doctrines of Asatru or historic contest of heresies

Swapping one ethos for another is very easy though, so there's a chance that the choices will be somewhat improved before the release thanks to feedback

 

[wilcoxchar]

Characteristics (Ethoses, Pillars, whatever) attached to cultures seem to have caused a much greater debate than it was in the case of religions. A very sensitive topic, indeed. Many players will start the game with dissatisfaction that their chosen (perhaps their own real) culture has not got the features they think are right. Giving the players the opportunity to change the characteristics of their ruler's culture at game start may help this.

Paradox games have always seemed to draw in the particularly weird nationalists, so it's not surprising that those weird nationalists would pop up whenever culture is mentioned to complain that their culture isn't their single, specific, narrowminded interpretation of their culture.

 

[Nevars]

Paradox games have always seemed to draw in the particularly weird nationalists, so it's not surprising that those weird nationalists would pop up whenever culture is mentioned to complain that their culture isn't their single, specific, narrowminded interpretation of their culture.

Wow did you just generalized all people who have disagree with paradox's view of some culture and strawman them into 'weird nationalists, complain that their culture isn't their single, specific, narrowminded interpretation of their culture'.

Though I have no opinion one way or another about how paradox go with specific culture but this is hilarious.

 

[ArVass]

^This.
Just look at the twists and turns that the hungarian user does (+ wall of text) some comments upward to justify he's not nationalist.

Literally just stfu. You can not say a SINGLE thing to justify why presenting a miriad of arguments on whatever I am saying (which you also seem to have refused to read because "hurr durr wall of text, leftist meme, whatever"), and instead you strawman me down to a strawman for the single reason that I dared to say my opinion on which ethos my own culture should have. Is mentioning your own culture now "particularly weird nationalism"? And is it fine to propose things for not your own culture (which I also did a couple of comments down or up my original comment about this and you curiously didn't even bet an eye)? Is a Hungarian having an opinion on Hungarians a "biased and narrow-minded interpretation" no matter what, but if someone from Sweden or something like that does the same, they're going to be right, because having an opinion on someone else's culture is fine as it's not "weird nationalism"?