Confirmed CK III - Empire breaks elective succession

[Exel]

Short summary of your issue Empire breaks elective succession

Game Version 1.2.1

What OS are you playing on?
Windows

What platform are you using?
Steam

Do you have mods enabled? No

Have you tried verifying your game files (Steam only)?
No

How much "pain" is this causing you?
9

Please explain the issue you experienced in the most condensed way possible
When you have elective succession in a kingdom, the elected king gets the primary duchy and all of its counties. This applies even if you have multiple kingdoms that the heir inherits.

When you form an empire, this breaks. All of a sudden the counties within the primary duchy are split between heirs according to regular partition laws. Even if the emperor is also elected king of the primary kingdom, they are only guaranteed one country in the primary duchy if the realm is under confederate partition.

Please explain how to reproduce the issue
Create a kingdom where the king owns multiple counties in the primary duchy. Turn the kingdom into elective succession. Check that the elected heir also inherits all of the domain counties in the primary duchy. Now form an empire. The domain counties in the primary duchy get split between the emperor's children regardless of who is elected the king of the primary duchy.

Is there anything else you think could help us identify/replicate the issue?


I have attached a save game
No

 

[Exel]

I made the following related observations about the bugginess of elective succession. I try to make the comparisons clearer with color coding and labels (K=Kingdom, E=Empire).


Let's look at succession first under a kingdom (no empire):

(K1) If the primary duchy is elective but the kingdom is not, the elected duke inherits all the domain counties.

(K2) If the primary duchy is elective and the kingdom is elective, the elected king inherits all the domain counties.

(K3) If the primary kingdom is elective but the duchy is not, the elected king inherits all the domain counties.


Ok, so far pretty reasonable. Domain inheritance always follows the highest elected title and the domain is not partitioned. Pretty straight-forward.



Now let's see how it works with empire:

(E1) If the primary duchy is elective but the kingdom and empire are not, the elected duke inherits all the domain counties.

(E2) If the primary duchy is elective and the kingdom is elective but the empire is not, the elected king inherits all the domain counties.

(E3) If the primary kingdom is elective but the duchy and empire are not, the elected king inherits all the domain counties.


So far so good. The rules E1-E3 perfectly match the rules K1-K3. The empire title didn't change things. The domain still goes always to the highest elected title and the domain is not partitioned.



Now let's see what happens when we make the empire title elective:

(E4) If the primary duchy is elective and the empire is elective but the kingdom is not, the elected emperor inherits only one domain county. The rest are partitioned.

(E5) If the primary duchy is elective, the kingdom is elective, and the empire is elective, the elected emperor inherits only one domain county. The rest are partitioned.

(E6) If the primary kingdom is elective and empire is elective but the duchy is not, the elected emperor inherits only one domain county. The rest are partitioned.

(E7) If the primary empire is elective and but the duchy and kingdom are not, the elected emperor inherits only one domain county. The rest are partitioned.


Now we see how the empire title breaks the previous succession rules. The rules E4-E7 do match the rules K1-K3 and E1-E3 in that the domain still goes always to the highest elected title. However there is now domain partition where there wasn't any before.


I really hope this is an easy fix because it seems to be only a matter of domain partition being coded wrong for elective empire titles. Good luck!

 

[Exel]

Has this bug been acknowledged and is anything being done to fix it?

 

[Freakkriek]

bump - same issue here

 

[Duke Corvus]

Hello, Exel, Freakkriek,

Thanks for reporting this! I haven't been able to reproduce this issue, so there might be some information here that's missing. Would either of you be able to provide a save where this happened, or list a specific scenario? Does this happen with any Empire title you create/start with? What exactly were the succession laws for the Duchy/Kindgom/Empire? Thanks!

 

[Exel]

Hello, Exel, Freakkriek,

Thanks for reporting this! I haven't been able to reproduce this issue, so there might be some information here that's missing. Would either of you be able to provide a save where this happened, or list a specific scenario? Does this happen with any Empire title you create/start with? What exactly were the succession laws for the Duchy/Kindgom/Empire? Thanks!

Thanks for checking back and investigating the issue!

I would point you to the 2nd post in the thread where I detail the issue and list the specific conditions (E4-E7) where the issue happens. To reproduce the issue you need to introduce Scandinavian Elective for the primary duchy, kingdom and empire titles. Try it with Novgorod just to be safe, although I doubt the bug is faction-specific.

The bug at the root of the issue is that instituting elective succession in an empire introduces domain partitioning even when it shouldn't. This is inconsistent with how elective succession works at the duchy and kingdom levels.

When elective succession is used with the primary duchy and kingdom, the domain always goes to the highest elected title. This makes sense. But elective succession with empire breaks this rule and partitions the domain.

 

[Exel]

Hello, Exel, Freakkriek,

Thanks for reporting this! I haven't been able to reproduce this issue, so there might be some information here that's missing. Would either of you be able to provide a save where this happened, or list a specific scenario? Does this happen with any Empire title you create/start with? What exactly were the succession laws for the Duchy/Kindgom/Empire? Thanks!

Did you manage to reproduce it?

 

[jakeowaty]

Hi there!

First of all - I'm deeply sorry for having this issue fly under the radar like this. Considering the usual playstyle of people and the adversity towards Elective systems, it's quite likely this has been missed as a potential important issue. This is where the upvoting system really helps us locate and isolate rogue bugs such as this one.

Second of all - I managed to reproduce this issue locally. I've created a bug in our database for the team for further investigation.

This is as much as I can do at the moment, I'd advise staying away from the Elective system for Empires for the time being as to avoid getting the realm fractured.

I wish you all the best in future CK3 endeavors and I hope you still enjoy the game as much as I do!

 

[Exel]

Is there an update to this issue getting fixed? Will we finally get Empires that can actually have Elective Succession without breaking the game?

 

[Exel]

How is there seemingly no urgency from the devs to a fix such a game-breaking bug in what is supposed to be one the game's core features?

 

[Freakkriek]

issue still present any ruining any chance of an elective empire...

 

[Avil]

Had this issue trying to make Scandinavian Elective empire. Had to remove all elective laws real quick. Maybe people just don't understand that it's not intended therefore don't care to report it? As messy elective with partition succession is, one wouldn't know if that's a bug or a feature.

 

[Furya]

I guess most people simply use "disinherit". The bug is really a pain.

 

[Exel]

It's been almost two years since this bug has been reported and nothing has been done about it.

It's a core feature of the game, but Paradox just doesn't care.

Won't be buying the next CK, that's for sure.

 

[:GAMERFANAT1C]

This is where the upvoting system really helps us locate and isolate rogue bugs such as this one.

But not to fix them clearly

 

[CountCristo]

Hi there!

First of all - I'm deeply sorry for having this issue fly under the radar like this. Considering the usual playstyle of people and the adversity towards Elective systems, it's quite likely this has been missed as a potential important issue. This is where the upvoting system really helps us locate and isolate rogue bugs such as this one.

Second of all - I managed to reproduce this issue locally. I've created a bug in our database for the team for further investigation.

This is as much as I can do at the moment, I'd advise staying away from the Elective system for Empires for the time being as to avoid getting the realm fractured.

I wish you all the best in future CK3 endeavors and I hope you still enjoy the game as much as I do!

Thanks for confirming this is indeed a bug, is there any chance you could give any sort of timeframe for when it might be fixed?

As you rightly say it makes elective worth avoiding given it's severity - and it's been broken for over half the entire time CK3 has been out.