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Originally posted by Dan Cook
Is the possible peace treaty between NAChina and Japan hypothetical or historical?

Historical. The conflict between Japan and China was not intended to be a total war but rather a way for Japan to force NatChi to recognise Japan's claims and to gain control of some resource-rich areas. Japanese national policy remained focused on a "good neighbour" relationship and peace negotiations were ongoing until Japan signed the Tri-partite Pact at which stage a settlement became impossible.
 
Right, I've done additional tests and made some changes to the event triggers and also a lot of AI changes. After getting the Kiri peace with NatChi I've seen Japan stack 57 divisions next to Vladivostok and then join the Axis through the "Opportunism" event. :D
Meanwhile puppeted NatChi was trashing ComChi and eventually annexed them.

There's definitely still issues though with either AI selection or maybe warmonger value. I will be continuing to work on the AI tomorrow but in the meantime I'm uploading an updated version of the files.

Note: I've seen a couple of CTD's tonight. Not sure if this was due to something related but if any of you get CTD when Japan is running japan_south.ai then please let me know. I'm too tired to track this down right now...
 
Originally posted by Dan Cook
Is the possible peace treaty between NAChina and Japan hypothetical or historical?
To add to Steel's answer;
China didn't really exist as a country until Kuomintang started to reunify the country. Each area was controlled by separate warlord and the Japanese viewed the Kuomintang as a continuation of the same line of warlords. The Japanese viewed their rights in Manchuria as something guaranteed by the agreement following the Russian-Japanese war of 1905. These rights were confirmed by the Soviet government later. The Manchukuo was not "broken" out of China but taken from a Chinese warlord. This was not really planned from the Japanese government, but something that a faction within Japanese army stationed to protect the Manchurian railway did on its own. The Japanese government was forced to accept this, after a couple of assasinations of prominent politicians.
The prime enemy of the Chinese people was moved from the British to the Japanese after the Manchuria incident, which lead to boycotts of Japanese goods and riots against Japanese businesses in China. The Japanese viewed these as deliberate provocations by the Kuomintang against Japan. This lead to negotiations between the Kuomintang and the Japanese, which were repeatedly sabotaged by people on both sides.

So with some changes of how the Japanese and Chinese dealt with the other side and rogue units within their own armies things might have turned out better.
 
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Originally posted by Generalisimo
the file that is available to download is fully updated?
i will add it to my "mix" and i will put it for download so everyone can test the work that has been done until today.
:D

EDIT: Download link no longer valid, please use C.O.R.E. download.
 
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Japan, Nationalist China, and the Road to War

Alright, it seems I've found the right place :D Hopefully I can toss in a few comments, as I did a fair bit of reading on the events leading to WWII in the Far East, as a History/East Asian Studies concentrator. Unfortunately I haven't used any of my Japanese in a few years, so it's a bit rusty :(

The Nomonhan modelling looks really cool. Some comments and thoughts about other things that have been mentioned:

North vs. South - The question of whether Japan would drive North (into Siberia and the so called "Northern Resource Area") or South (into the Dutch East Indies and the British held areas) dominated prewar Japanese thinking, and was a result of an interservice rivalry between the Army (backing the North plan) and Navy (backing the South plan). Nomonhan largely settled this matter, (even if the Army kept using it to try and secure budget funds) because it had become apparent that the mechanized Soviets far outclassed the IJA. So, maybe this question figures into it somewhat?

I think also a lot of how it affects things would play out in research priorities and build strategies. Getting some of the Army/Navy rivalry into play would be cool though.

On to Japan becoming fascist and joining the Axis:

Right now, the way HoI seems to model this is by Japan picking "choose right" in the 1937 election. It can then DoW NatChina, or whomever it wants to. Joining the Axis is a matter of choice.

I tend to find this fairly lacking, myself. As has been discussed previously in this thread, it wasn't the Japanese Government that was pushing towards war so much as the predominantly ultranationalist mid-ranking officers (roughly major to colonel). This was in part made possible by the Japanese Constitution, which left the Army and Navy Ministers answerable only to the Emperor, not the Prime Minister. In effect, either one could essentially veto the policy of the Prime Minister, and cause the government to fall.
If I had to pinpoint the spot where Japan edges over from Liberal Democrat to Paternal Autocrat, I'd say roughly Sept 1941, when Tojo is made Prime Minister after the failure of Konoe's attempts to negotiate with the USA. Up until then, you still have an ostensibly democratic cabinet/PM, just with a runaway military.

Rather than having Japan go Fascist in '37, I'd like to see a "Marco Polo Bridge Incident" event for 1937 (the exact date I don't have with me, but it wouldn't be hard to get - we'd probably want to offset it some anyway). This event would allow Japan to choose between (A) using the incident as an excuse for war with China, or (B) backing off and punishing/reprimanding the officers involved (at the cost of dissent?). (B) might then lead to a purge of the officer corps, with the risk of a pro-fascist military coup occuring if a purge isn't done. Other events, such as the abandonment of Manchuria/Manchukuo might also enable this coup event (like an alliance with England, for instance - I found it was far too easy as Japan to wait until England was at war with Germany, offer alliance, then just DoW the Dutch and Chinese (who became fascist) all the while being ignored by the USA :p I also can't imagine that the Japanese military planners who dreamed of replacing the British as the predominant power in East Asia would have gone for this.)

Back to Tojo and Fascism:
Tojo was considered to be the only man capable of making peace *and* getting the Japanese military to accept the terms. However, it ended up being decided that the USA was asking too much, and with the Oil Embargo there was little choice but to fight now, or not be able to fight at all once strangled of oil.

Getting into the negotiations between Japan and the USA leading up to the war, two things were the predominant issues.
1) The Japanese War in China.
2) The Japanese Occupation of Indochina.

The China Lobby (pro-Chinese lobbyists and statesmen) in the USA was incredibly strong and influential, and is probably the single biggest reason why the USA came to become Pro-China and Anti-Japan. Pre-WWI era attitudes in the USA tended to view the Japanese as being much more civilized, and friendly to American interests in keeping China open to trade and under stable western-friendly control (helping put down the Boxer Rebellion, etc). Chiang Kai-Shek's wife in particular was the darling of many Washington political elites, addressing Congress, etc. As such, Japan attacking China, or any form of Japanese Aggression/Control of China should be part of the cause of the American push for war with Japan. Almost all the diplomacy between Japan and the USA in the year or two leading up to Pearl Harbor dealt with the Japanese war on China.

Incidentally, in the rare case China DoW's a Democratic Japan, there should be some kind of way to sleep all these events. If this had happened, the China Lobby would have been at least weakened.

The War on China was the big issue, but it was the Occupation of Indochina that sealed the issue in the minds of many Americans. Up until that point, a lot of people were willing to accept Japan's professed statements that this wasn't a war of conquest, but a dispute over rights in China, and that Japan didn't intend to stay in China (aside perhaps from trade rights and the extension of spheres of influence, etc, as the European powers had done in the past). The Occupation of Indochina made all of those claims look like a big load of lies, and the USA was pretty adamant about Japan having to leave Indochina as part of any settlement. Japan was likewise adamant about not doing so, for fear that the Army/Navy would revolt (as mentioned above).

So, somewhere in here we have an event chain that starts up the road to war.
I'd suggest that Japan either be at war with (or puppeted) China & own at least 1 province in Indochina, or have conquered China, or have taken Indochina/Madagascar, or be at war with the British.
This then triggers the Threat of a US Oil Embargo Event for the USA, who can choose to issue it or ignore Japan and the Far East (causing dissent?)
Issuing it gives Japan a choice of backing off from the war(s), abandoning most of China and all of Indochina, etc, or of suffering the embargo. Backing down causes considerable dissent & chance for a coup, of course.
Suffering the Embargo would then maybe lead to a Tojo takes over (Japan = Paternal Autocrat/Fascist), and ultimately to a Pearl Harbor event(s): (War Japan vs US, US dissent drops, US loses a couple of BBs maybe?)

As far as the Tripartite Pact goes, I'm hesitant to really say we could implement that with HoI as is - I don't want to force Japan into always going to war with the USSR when trying to follow the "historical" path. Maybe Joining Tripartite doesn't give an alliance, it just causes US WE to increase and gives some other benefits to Japan/Germany without signing an HoI alliance, while declining it causes dissent in Japan and maybe negative US WE?
 
Thanks for the input, it will take me a few days to work through the changes with the new 1.03b patch but then I'll get to work on this. I've been toying with events for the China Incident (Marco Polo Bridge Incident, 7 July 1937) before and think this could work quite well. Preliminarily the election effects will stay in (freedom of choice for the player) and the MPBI event will be an addition.
 
Japanese Elections

I'd agree that Japan could have probably gone fascist at any point during this time frame, so keeping the elections as one route to this is definitely good - the player ought to have a great deal of choice regarding when (or if) Japan goes fascist (albeit with whatever consequences would be historically appropriate for their choices). I don't think a full fascist takeover in '37 is the historical result though, which is why I'd like to see the events put in. :)
 
Re: Japanese Elections

Originally posted by Fire Wraith
I'd agree that Japan could have probably gone fascist at any point during this time frame, so keeping the elections as one route to this is definitely good - the player ought to have a great deal of choice regarding when (or if) Japan goes fascist (albeit with whatever consequences would be historically appropriate for their choices). I don't think a full fascist takeover in '37 is the historical result though, which is why I'd like to see the events put in. :)

The election event makes them "paternal autocrat", not fascist ;) I'll code the events this weekend so make sure you check back here :D If you have any further ideas make sure to let me know, don't limit it to Japan - I'm interested in the entire Far East.
 
Re: China incident

Originally posted by cmeo
I have a 1.02 vintage event for China incident, which is another route to war between China and Japan.

How/where do I post/upload?
you can put your code here or send me the files to my email generalisimo_arg@hotmail.com and i will put them for download.
Maybe it is good to put your code here (if it is not toooooo long ) so Steel can see it and maybe you can mix your work. ;)

:D
 
Re: Re: Japanese Elections

Originally posted by Steel
The election event makes them "paternal autocrat", not fascist ;) I'll code the events this weekend so make sure you check back here :D If you have any further ideas make sure to let me know, don't limit it to Japan - I'm interested in the entire Far East.

I thought PA was one of the three possible subsets of fascism? :p

I've also got quite a bit on Korea, and some stuff on late war China I'd like to work out. One thing that's a very glaring error, from what I can see looking at the country/revolt files in HoI, is that there's simply "Korea" as a revolter, rather than having both North and South (DPRK and Republic of Korea respectively) as potential countries. I haven't looked at cabinets, so maybe both the governments are available for "Korea", but it doesn't allow for the historical reality of divided postwar Korea (or that one the other faction could revolt from Japan, and then the other faction could revolt from *them*). I can probably also provide specific lists for cabinets, including both Kim Il-Sung and Syngman Rhee as leaders, as well as others, including some who were killed in the years between WWII and the Korean War for various reasons.

South Korea would probably be a US Ally. North Korea would be a Chicom Ally. I'd say that, and not Puppet, mainly because both Korean governments were pretty independent in both action and rhetoric between the wars. The North invaded without consulting either China or the USSR, and the USA had only marginal influence on Rhee before the invasion - we had held back from giving the ROK forces tanks/heavy artillery/planes etc for fear they'd go invade the North like they kept saying they would in speeches, etc.

Also, and this might or might not be possible, but renaming the provinces of Korea would be good - right now they all have the Japanese names, and that sort of thing would really piss off most Koreans. ;) If I remember from EU2, changing the map isn't possible, though. If it's not though, I can always provide Korean province names.

One event that definitely comes to mind would be an event that triggers on Japanese Surrender + some other preconditions, which would then carve out both Koreas roughly on the historical dividing line, as well as give Formosa to the ChiNats, or something like that.
 
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korean communists

I think it might be nice if you could add the pre-Kim Il Sung communists to the cabinets, like Pak who founded the first communist party in 1925. AFAIK Kim was put there by the Soviets because he didn't have a domestic power base.. If the country is couped or taken over by the Chinese then Pak would probably be in charge
 
for the north korea, they are more like a puppet of USSR before korean war. korean war was pushed by USSR and China was involved passively(they want to attack taiwan). And the backbone of North Korea army are from chicom army(PLA, 4th field Army).
 
I'd definitely like to fit everyone in we can as potentials. The main reason I suggest the North be a Chinese ally rather than USSR is that China intervened in the historical Korean war, though the USSR stayed out (apart from some material support and advisors). Also, most historical evidence seems to indicate that the USSR was taken by surprise by the war - particularly the fact that the invasion happened when the USSR was boycotting the UN Security Council, thus allowing the US and Allies to pass a bunch of resolutions supporting South Korea, and giving their forces the ability to fight under the UN flag rather than as individual nations, and gain aid from other nations who might have stayed uninvolved had it been declared a Civil War instead, or something like that.
After Inchon, the NKPA was pretty much in tatters, and got pushed back to the Yalu, at which point the PLA sent in 250,000 'volunteers' to fight in Korea. Up until that point though it had been an entirely North Korean fight (though as I recall the NKPA had helped the ChiComs fight the civil war too). After the Chinese troops arrived, things swung back and forth for a while until it finally stalemated at the current armistice line.

If there were a way to liberate revolters, I'd say we could have one Government for Chicom supported communists, and another for USSR supported ones depending on which of the two did the liberating. Chiang would probably have installed the RoK Government, that is if he didn't just try to keep Korea outright :p
 
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I think 3 would be best: 1 default communist, 1 Soviet and 1 Communist Chinese. Problem is you never know who will coup or "liberate" Korea. Of course finding these people is a completely different ball game.
The Soviets did send in "volunteer" Soviet pilots and tank crews, who fought on the North Korean side. I don't know if they were in from the start though.
 
Lots of good discussion here. I think the likelihood in the game is that Korea will be controlled by one single nation (NatChi, USSR, PHI or maybe an ANZAC country) if and when Japan surrenders. The likelihood is also that Japan's surrender will be in the form of annexation unless we code a "Bitter Peace" type event for Japan.

If we definitely want to see Korea in the game it's relatively easy to code a couple of duplicate events for the above nations to release Korea if all the provinces are owned by that nation, but this might never fire if just 1 province remains owned by another power.

It might also work using "province X NOT owned by Japan" for each of the Korean provinces but that could have very strange results if for example ComIntern and Allies are fighting over Korea. It would have been nice to have a control = {alliance} type trigger.

I think it might be easier to just create a united Korea but then have a "Civil War" type event to split them into North and South. Since Korea is fairly small the war might be over very quickly though... This might call for some trial and error experimentation :D


Is anybody willing to code the events? I can do it but want to do Japan (Internal Politics) and ComChi (Unit/Province Revolts) first.
 
Originally posted by Steel
Lots of good discussion here. I think the likelihood in the game is that Korea will be controlled by one single nation (NatChi, USSR, PHI or maybe an ANZAC country) if and when Japan surrenders. The likelihood is also that Japan's surrender will be in the form of annexation unless we code a "Bitter Peace" type event for Japan.

If we definitely want to see Korea in the game it's relatively easy to code a couple of duplicate events for the above nations to release Korea if all the provinces are owned by that nation, but this might never fire if just 1 province remains owned by another power.

It might also work using "province X NOT owned by Japan" for each of the Korean provinces but that could have very strange results if for example ComIntern and Allies are fighting over Korea. It would have been nice to have a control = {alliance} type trigger.

I think it might be easier to just create a united Korea but then have a "Civil War" type event to split them into North and South. Since Korea is fairly small the war might be over very quickly though... This might call for some trial and error experimentation :D


Is anybody willing to code the events? I can do it but want to do Japan (Internal Politics) and ComChi (Unit/Province Revolts) first.
if you start a civil war between them, we need to use new TAGs for them, right?
also, for the civil war, you can give them equal forces, so the front can remain stable for a while, until one of the two get a minor advantage over the other. For example give them 3 infantry division (a guess) to each side...then the war will last more time...
we need also flags & shields right? they are the same as the actual ones? :confused:
remember we have KOR for Korea, but we need another one for the other faction...