Aquatic Hive Mind, Do Hive World and Aquatic stack? Conflict?

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So, Hive mind aquatic empire with hydrocentric.

- Do the negative bonuses from aquatic take effect on Hive Worlds or are they considered "Wet" worlds in this case?

- If Hive Worlds are considered "Wet" worlds then do i get the positive bonuses from both?
- Or does one take priority over the other.

Eldest.
 

Mcgan

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Hive worlds are not considered "Wet" but they are considered "Ideal".
The penalties from aquatic trait only apply on worlds that are neither wet nor ideal, so you won't get penalties on Gaia, Hive, Ecumenopolis and Ring Worlds.
 
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Hive worlds are not considered "Wet" but they are considered "Ideal".
The penalties from aquatic trait only apply on worlds that are neither wet nor ideal, so you won't get penalties on Gaia, Hive, Ecumenopolis and Ring Worlds.
Do you know if Relic worlds fall into the "ideal" category?

Thanks for the help
 

Surimi

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Aquatic hive minds are in a bit of a weird place because yeah, hive worlds are just better than any of the bonuses from being aquatic, so if you wanted to play optimally you're probably going to want to get rid of the aquatic trait later using biological ascension. That said, I personally appreciate the excuse to play hive minds without using hive worlds, and it does mean you're not dependent on rolling climate restoration (which for some reason always seems to be annoyingly difficult to roll).

But yeah, I feel like hive minds could stand to get a bit more benefit from aquatic/hydrocentric. It's okay for normal empires where the competition is coming from Gaia worlds, but hive worlds are vastly, vastly superior to Gaia worlds, and if not using them is going to be a legitimate choice the alternatives to doing so probably need to be a bit stronger.
 
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MasterOfGrey

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I raise you a suggestion: use aquatic features to make your worlds huge enough to do everything you want from them. Pack them till they’re full to burst - then convert to hive worlds.
 

DeanTheDull

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Aquatic hive minds are in a bit of a weird place because yeah, hive worlds are just better than any of the bonuses from being aquatic, so if you wanted to play optimally you're probably going to want to get rid of the aquatic trait later using biological ascension. That said, I personally appreciate the excuse to play hive minds without using hive worlds, and it does mean you're not dependent on rolling climate restoration (which for some reason always seems to be annoyingly difficult to roll).

But yeah, I feel like hive minds could stand to get a bit more benefit from aquatic/hydrocentric. It's okay for normal empires where the competition is coming from Gaia worlds, but hive worlds are vastly, vastly superior to Gaia worlds, and if not using them is going to be a legitimate choice the alternatives to doing so probably need to be a bit stronger.

I mean, hives are pretty much shoehorned into Bio-Ascension anyway, so Aquatic really can just exist on its own merits in the context of their build, and then be replaced when you get hive worlds for some better trait. It even has less of a pentaly on bad biomes, given that pop-assembly isn't affected.

Strictly speaking Hydrocentric hives still have the same advantage/tradeoff of Ocean vs Hive worlds that normal empires have with Ocean vs Gaia. Hydrocentric Aquatics are still 15% to the Hive/Gaia's 10%, trading an extra 5% for marginal extra growth at a point in the game where growth is overwhelmingly from conquest rather than natural.
 

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Strictly speaking Hydrocentric hives still have the same advantage/tradeoff of Ocean vs Hive worlds that normal empires have with Ocean vs Gaia. Hydrocentric Aquatics are still 15% to the Hive/Gaia's 10%, trading an extra 5% for marginal extra growth at a point in the game where growth is overwhelmingly from conquest rather than natural.
I'm not sure I understand entirely what you're getting at here Aquatics are 15% worker output vs 10% everything output on Gaia/Hive. So I think that trade-off sits on its own. As you say, the growth bonus is largely irrelevant by that point.

The big advantage that I see is that if you're going Aquatic there's very little reason to not go Hydrocentric, in which case you can just keep making ocean worlds bigger.
Most worlds don't have the size to actually utilise all of their resource districts, the aquatic path lets you just keep growing them into bigger and bigger powerhouses.
 

DeanTheDull

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I'm not sure I understand entirely what you're getting at here Aquatics are 15% worker output vs 10% everything output on Gaia/Hive. So I think that trade-off sits on its own. As you say, the growth bonus is largely irrelevant by that point.

I think I misinterpreted you in my first go, my apologies.

Hive Worlds are still more important for the specialist job output modifiers. For normal organics Hydrocentric balances against Gaia for the worker role, but the specialist role is still covered by Ecumenopoli regardless. Hives can't get Ecu, so they still need their best specialist world for end-game roles. Aquatic-without-hydrocentric is still the best they can do to have a ring of worker-worlds feeding specialist worlds.



The big advantage that I see is that if you're going Aquatic there's very little reason to not go Hydrocentric, in which case you can just keep making ocean worlds bigger.
Most worlds don't have the size to actually utilise all of their resource districts, the aquatic path lets you just keep growing them into bigger and bigger powerhouses.

...can't say I agree with that, unless you're playing for the memes of big planets rather than optimization.

Outside over the smallest micro-planets of size 10 or so, there's not really much point in making ocean worlds bigger via hydrocentric. Once you can maximize building slots on a planet, you'd be better off using the influence for Habitats and capitalizing on deposits.
 
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MasterOfGrey

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Hive Worlds are still more important for the specialist job output modifiers. For normal organics Hydrocentric balances against Gaia for the worker role, but the specialist role is still covered by Ecumenopoli regardless. Hives can't get Ecu, so they still need their best specialist world for end-game roles. Aquatic-without-hydrocentric is still the best they can do to have a ring of worker-worlds feeding specialist worlds.
Hmmm, I get that Hive worlds are more efficient for specialist output, but I'm not convinced that being able to expand your world and thus just keep generating *more* slots for specialist workers beyond the starting planet size doesn't have more value.
...can't say I agree with that, unless you're playing for the memes of big planets rather than optimization.

Outside over the smallest micro-planets of size 10 or so, there's not really much point in making ocean worlds bigger via hydrocentric. Once you can maximize building slots on a planet, you'd be better off using the influence for Habitats and capitalizing on deposits.
In my experience hives have plenty of influence late-game, and habitats take a comparatively long time to pay off.
Plus, while my argument for expanding the world is based on maximising use of deposits for fun - it can also be used to produce just more specialist slots for alloys. With any bonuses from buildings on that world already baked in, without having to set up the additional infrastructure on a habitat.

I can't help but feel that bigger worlds that do both basic and specialist resources are just better/comparable if you focus on using habitats primarily on science deposits instead of resources.
Edit: Especially if you use catalytic processing.
 

DeanTheDull

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Hmmm, I get that Hive worlds are more efficient for specialist output, but I'm not convinced that being able to expand your world and thus just keep generating *more* slots for specialist workers beyond the starting planet size doesn't have more value.
The only specialists who scale with planet size are Industrial District alloy workers, and a 10% specialist buff is (not really in aggregate but go with me) basically 2 pops per 10 districts. All other planet-based specialists are limited by building cap.

Adding that since hive worlds are made with energy- a nearly unlimited resource in the game- but world expansion is gated by influence, an extremely limited resource- and you can more easily increase all outputs in your empire by 10% than you can increase your planetary alloy capacities by 10%. And even that assumes that it's district size and not pops that's the limiting factor- most people have the issue of too few pops and too many planets.



In my experience hives have plenty of influence late-game, and habitats take a comparatively long time to pay off.
I mean, habitats are conceptually the mutliplication of space-based resources, and +2 growth slots. Nearly every resource in space gives you multiple times it's base amount if you build a habitat on it, and you're generating more pops to exploit it via colony ship and increasing empire growth overall. If you're not suffering from an alloy shortage, it's the best way to expand your resource and science base short of war, and if you're going to war you have better uses for influence than +1 district.

Plus, while my argument for expanding the world is based on maximising use of deposits for fun - it can also be used to produce just more specialist slots for alloys. With any bonuses from buildings on that world already baked in, without having to set up the additional infrastructure on a habitat.
If you find it fun that's all it needs to be, conversation over, but alloy specialist slots really aren't a limited thing. The influence (and energy) you expend on them could just as well be used to other, greater, purposes that have bigger economic impact in the short, medium, and long term.

I can't help but feel that bigger worlds that do both basic and specialist resources are just better/comparable if you focus on using habitats primarily on science deposits instead of resources.
Edit: Especially if you use catalytic processing.

Not really, no. Well, yes, habitats are best at science and strategic resource deposits, but planetary industry is the least efficient industry because it mixes basic and specialist resource production.

In terms of basic (worker) resource production, nothing beats planets. Planetary 25% boost outmatches the Habitat equivalent designations, which is 10%.

But in terms of industry (alloys), Habitats are basically just as good as planets, since a planet isn't getting the resource buff if it's designated as industry, or not getting the industry buff if designated as resource world. Habitats not already used for science/strategic resource deposits basically have no opportunity cost with focusing on industry and efficiency, because you aren't losing out potential basic resource production benefits. There is a question of strategic resource efficiency, but if you're building habitats and using their pops for alloy districts you have building slots to spare for refinery buildings- or even entire refinery habitats, to fuel more alloy worlds.

The only way for Hives to boost their alloy production efficiency is either via Ring Worlds (where they can get a 10 jobs per district and a 5% boost from designation; a trade of alloy-inputs for admin capacity-pops and pop-output) or a Hive World (where less admin-capacity savings, but higher pop output bonus AND the resource savings.)
 
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Surimi

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Strictly speaking Hydrocentric hives still have the same advantage/tradeoff of Ocean vs Hive worlds that normal empires have with Ocean vs Gaia. Hydrocentric Aquatics are still 15% to the Hive/Gaia's 10%, trading an extra 5% for marginal extra growth at a point in the game where growth is overwhelmingly from conquest rather than natural.

Hive worlds have double also have double housing from hive districts, all building slots unlocked and uncapped resource districts.

The uncapped resource districts might not seem a big deal, but think about the planet specialization bonuses. Basic resource production bonuses are pretty massive (+25%) so while a normal planet might have enough resource districts, it's going to end up with a mixture of districts which either aren't all benefiting from the specialization or are benefitting from a lesser specialization (+10% for rural worlds). Hive worlds mean you can devote whole planets to a single basic resource, producing them more efficiently (and thus requiring fewer resource districts overall).

Similarly, double housing for hive districts. Since hive worlds also have all building slots unlocked, you don't actually need to build a lot of hive districts on hive worlds to fill all the buildings, which translates into either more districts doing other things (forges for example) or just fewer districts used overall.

Really, the only downside to hive worlds is the destruction of planetary features and their relatively late appearance in the game (or rather the annoying tech gate they're locked behind).

And the issue with hydrocentric is that if you are going to swap aquatic out later and just switch over to hive worlds, you've kind of wasted an ascension perk on it (I mean, you could get slightly bigger planets, but that's seldom an issue with hive worlds) when you might have been better off picking something that would have helped tech rush for climate restoration earlier.
 

Ryika

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Hive Worlds also gain an extra spawning drone.

Really, they just have everything. Tools that allow for perfect specialization of each world, tons of housing from districts for research worlds, all building slots unlocked so you can even spam housing building on resource worlds without needing to sped a ton of upkeep on hive districts, fixed habitability and bonus pop assembly. And all for just an Ascension Perk and a one-time payment of 10k Energy per planet, so you can even spam habitats at the same time.

They might be the most amazing thing in the game.
 
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Zagreb 887

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Hive worlds have double also have double housing from hive districts, all building slots unlocked and uncapped resource districts.

The uncapped resource districts might not seem a big deal, but think about the planet specialization bonuses. Basic resource production bonuses are pretty massive (+25%) so while a normal planet might have enough resource districts, it's going to end up with a mixture of districts which either aren't all benefiting from the specialization or are benefitting from a lesser specialization (+10% for rural worlds). Hive worlds mean you can devote whole planets to a single basic resource, producing them more efficiently (and thus requiring fewer resource districts overall).

Similarly, double housing for hive districts. Since hive worlds also have all building slots unlocked, you don't actually need to build a lot of hive districts on hive worlds to fill all the buildings, which translates into either more districts doing other things (forges for example) or just fewer districts used overall.

Really, the only downside to hive worlds is the destruction of planetary features and their relatively late appearance in the game (or rather the annoying tech gate they're locked behind).

And the issue with hydrocentric is that if you are going to swap aquatic out later and just switch over to hive worlds, you've kind of wasted an ascension perk on it (I mean, you could get slightly bigger planets, but that's seldom an issue with hive worlds) when you might have been better off picking something that would have helped tech rush for climate restoration earlier.

Is it viable to "enlarge your ocean world" with the ice asteroid thing and then turn them into massive 30+ hive worlds?
 

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Is it viable to "enlarge your ocean world" with the ice asteroid thing and then turn them into massive 30+ hive worlds?

It's doable, but probably not "viable" because it would require two ascendancy perks (Hydrocentric and World Shaper).

Technically you can add six districts per planet with Expansion tradition, Hydrocentric, and Mastery of Nature. But it's turbo-inefficient.
 
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Technically you can add six districts per planet with Expansion tradition, Hydrocentric, and Mastery of Nature. But it's turbo-inefficient.
Hydrocentric is limited? It doesn't say there's a limit on how many times you can enlarge the world.

Also, yeah it might be inefficient; unless you are doing something like, say, playing on absolute minimum habitable worlds in a 'barren' galaxy.