Age of Wonders: Planetfall – Dev Diary #19: Diplomacy

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I do think it's interesting that you are operating upon the assumption that a vassalized state will always desire to separate from their nominal ruler. Rather than potentially deciding that coexistence/cooperation is in their best interests after all. There are several historical examples where a group of separate states unified into a greater whole.

That being said, the system, as detailed, most certainly allows for a vassal to still expand their power, and even induce wars by inciting other players(in the case of A.I.), potentially causing their overlord to be knocked out, if played carefully(and depending on if their overlord is automatically declared war upon as well). Freeing the vassal to be an independent state once more.

As it stands, it appears that your(@Jolly Joker) primary opposition to the mechanic is within a PvP view of things(please do correct me if I'm wrong, though). You and/or others have already sufficiently detailed why it's problematic in such a system. Either a vassal is somebody that arguably could have just been a direct ally(if they're fully willing to cooperate), or they are somebody who is highly likely to message other players with the intent to sabotage their overlord as much as possible, such that they can break free.
In the former case, there is, again arguably, little reason for the system to exist, rather than simply offering an alliance(although in a direct free-for-all, alliances may not be an option, whereas vassalage may be fair game, pending 'house rules').
In the latter case, there is little reason for the system to exist, as most savvy players will simply eliminate players rather than offer vassalage. After all, if a vassal becomes your ally(with ally-vision, etc.), they might be in a greater position to damage your position, by sharing information to other players, than before when they were simply a player that was losing to you.

So, yes, ultimately, outside of house rules, and particular groups of players, the Vassal mechanic is likely to be ignored in PvP games.

But!, I don't believe that is sufficient reason to rule out the system, for multiple reasons:
1) The game is far and away mostly played in single player. This is a fact.
2) There are still people who will utilize it in multi-player.
3) In PvA.I. games, or mixed PvA.I./PvP games, I could see it being used reasonably often. Partially to tell a story(in your example of the unruly A.I. Vassal becoming docile, one could imagine that they are heavily policed or even enslaved with cybernetics, chemically or psionically), and partially for reasons stated by other posters(a loyal ally, laziness, etc.). As said by many here, it's a more robust replacement of the Surrender mechanic.

Being a primarily PvP player myself, I don't see myself using the mechanic all that often, but I see no reason why it shouldn't exist. After all, if you don't want to be a vassal, then refuse the offer of vassalage. In singleplayer, that will generally mean you start a new game, unless you can turn around the war(or reload to a point sufficiently in advance). In multiplayer, well, it's basically the same result, I suppose.

All the arguments of how it ruins playing the game if you become a vassal are a bit silly to me, personally, when you can simply refuse the offer. At least as a vassal you can still play and potentially win the game, even if it's by allied victory instead of solo victory. That, and A.I. is likely not going to decide to wipe you out after the fact(although it would be interesting).
The alternative is just likely starting a new game after refusing vassalage and being defeated(if you don't turn the war around, as mentioned)... which is what would happen if you were going to lose a war, and there was no vassal option, anyway.
 
Well, I don't care about the PvP aspect, actually, because, as you say, you can simply ignore this (or use conventional diplomatic dealings, trading stuff for a peace in the event of PvP games with more than 2 participants).

My gripe is with Single player (or PBEM games) things. A surrender mechanic is ok, BUT: A surrender mechanic that leaves the player as a playing entity intact, shouldn't be handcuffed the way they are, whether humans or AI players. It they ARE, eliminate them as a player completely (Leader dead/assassinated/trialed) OR keep them, but give them an option to work actively for freedom again.

That's it.

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I mean, look what happens in AoW 3 when a player surrenders. The Leader is joining you, and their Throne City joins as well and becomes unconditional part of your empire, while the rest of the empire crumbles to single neutral cities. I think, that's fine.
Then you can vassal neutrals - but only after making peace. That is, vassalage comes from friendly relations, also quite sensible. (The whole process could be less formal and strict, but no matter.)

Now, in PF war won't come easy; there are more diplomatic actions and more factors that influence stance and so on - also, you need a good reason to start a war.
Now, to surrender, the situation in PF must be reallly hopeless, obviously, because otherwise you could offer something less drastic to end the war and make peace.
Now the question is, if the situation is so absolutely hopeless that surrender is the reasonable option - why, then, should that player survive as a PLAYER? Shouldn't they be reduced in status to what was a dwelling in AoW3? I mean, vassalage in PF basically means that the surrendering empire somehow becomes part of the overlord's empire - however, retaining their racial identity. In my opinion, keeping the player identity is just, well, overly sentimental and not really helpful for anyone.
 
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So the question isn't whether it's a great idea or an improvement - the question is how it's done and implemented.

Begging pardon, but that's a pretty obvious and general statement to make.


Not protecting a Vassal enough would give the Vassal some Cassus Belli for holding a revolt

I meant to reply to this earlier.

I think this is a good idea.


I'm one of the other forums I frequent/visit/grace with my presence /annoy constantly, someone said that they can't play a game with crap diplomacy.

Either full on EU style diplomacy (I'm paraphrasing them. I haven't played EU) or strip it out nearly completely, like in previous AOW games.


Although I wouldn't phrase it quite so extremely, it's a good point imho.


If anyone can make it a useful, fun, not busy work mechanic then it's probably Triumph.
 
I do think it's interesting that you are operating upon the assumption that a vassalized state will always desire to separate from their nominal ruler. Rather than potentially deciding that coexistence/cooperation is in their best interests after all. There are several historical examples where a group of separate states unified into a greater whole.


I can't figure out how to edit and insert new quotes using a phone, so new reply. :(

I'm not assuming a vassal will always want to break free.

I was saying it ought to be an option.

And I did mention confederation.

Put the 2 together and I think you could make a very interesting system in PF, especially if -and I think this is the case - the Base game design is such that you can't ever have quite enough troops or cities or resources to do what you want (barring 12 player super large maps with just 2 people playing, set to super easy...etc)

By making the tradeoffs significant we could have the following situation:

  1. It is quicker to Vassalise a beaten opponent than it is to utterly destroy them and absorb them (which is, apologies for using the word, realistic)
  2. Vassalage carries the risk of rebellion. This is triggered by empire happiness and perception of power. Happiness affected by affinity with the overlord and length of war and atrocities etc. To illustrate, a Vanguard fighting a quick and almost bloodless war against another Vanguard should find it much easier to vassalise the opponent than the same Vanguard fighting a powerful Kir'ko opponent for 50 turns in which several cities were razed. A small, culturally close faction should be happier being part of the empire (think how well integrated the Nato countries are, using the same specifications etc)
  3. Perception and happiness should be able to be influenced, by the Vassal themselves, by world events, and by other empires. For example, player 3 runs a propaganda operation that shifts opinion in player 1s vassal. Another example, player 1 commits an atrocity against a city of the Vassals race.
  4. Tied into this I think every city should have an individual happiness meter.
  5. The result would be that wars would need to be carefully considered *and* vassals are attractive to have (free resources) but carry some innate risk.
 
Well, I don't care about the PvP aspect, actually, because, as you say, you can simply ignore this (or use conventional diplomatic dealings, trading stuff for a peace in the event of PvP games with more than 2 participants).

My gripe is with Single player (or PBEM games) things. A surrender mechanic is ok, BUT: A surrender mechanic that leaves the player as a playing entity intact, shouldn't be handcuffed the way they are, whether humans or AI players. It they ARE, eliminate them as a player completely (Leader dead/assassinated/trialed) OR keep them, but give them an option to work actively for freedom again.

That's it.
If it makes you feel better, assume that part of the surrender mechanism involves agreeing to chemical mind-control/1984-style surveillance/binding psychic contracts, or what have you. It's a sci-fi world; those things can happen.

But again, we have to get back to the main points. I'm going to focus on gameplay logic, because ultimately this is a game, and if something doesn't work from a gameplay perspective, it shouldn't be in the game:
  • Becoming a vassal is essentially surrendering; it means that the vassaled player has "lost" the game from a gameplay perspective. It should never be something that a human wants to do. It's strictly meant for losing AIs.
  • As such, any nation agreeing to it has almost certainly been defeated to the extent that the victor could just go ahead and wipe them out directly, if they wanted. It's simply an alternative to the player having to go through with that final series of conquests (which can get somewhat tedious, since you know who will win, you just have to go through the motions).
  • On the other hand, if the vassal could break it, it would open up quite a bit of potential abuse of the AI; assuming that the AI won't cancel its overlordship normally (because 99% of the time, that would be a bad move), the player can immediately submit to any foreign AI as a vassal, and suddenly get the ability to expand with both a guaranteed non-aggression treaty with their overlord, and a guaranteed protector from other foreign aggression (because any third party would have to fight your overlord as well as you). There's a reason that most games that include some sort of vassalage mechanic tend to put restrictions on it, specifically to avoid this kind of cheese.
If the defeated nation will only accept becoming a vassal after it has been utterly crushed (which seems to be the intent), there isn't much "trade-off" between defeating them utterly and having them as a potentially disloyal vassal. You've already almost completely defeated them and essentially are left with a little mopping up; they won't even be able to cause enough trouble to be a significant distraction if another crisis breaks out. In that case, if they can break free, why bother with vassalage instead of exterminating them entirely? They won't provide meaningful resources as a vassal anyway, and if they could rebel, then you have to constantly station troops to deal with that possibility, which makes you significantly weaker for negligible gain.

Vassalage is an anti-frustration feature for single player games. That's ok! Preventing frustration is good for a game. Making it more complicated risks turning it into a pro-frustration feature, in which case no one will ever use it.
 
Vassalage is an anti-frustration feature for single player games. That's ok! Preventing frustration is good for a game. Making it more complicated risks turning it into a pro-frustration feature, in which case no one will ever use it.

Well, I would rather that if it is in the game, that it be more fully fleshed out and interesting, and serve the role of a soft anti-snowball mechanic. So yeah, your opponent may be large and powerful, but maybe his cities are very discontent? Wider empires--> more resources (obviously useful) and taller empires --> easier to control (also useful, but different.)

City and colonist happiness already exist, so why not flesh them out more?

That said, if it is purely an enhanced surrender mechanic, then that's ok too.
 
If it makes you feel better, assume that part of the surrender mechanism involves agreeing to chemical mind-control/1984-style surveillance/binding psychic contracts, or what have you. It's a sci-fi world; those things can happen.
No. They can't. You wouldn't surrender into something like that because there wouldn't be anything left. It doessn't make sense to assume this. Because:

But again, we have to get back to the main points. I'm going to focus on gameplay logic, because ultimately this is a game, and if something doesn't work from a gameplay perspective, it shouldn't be in the game: Becoming a vassal is essentially surrendering; it means that the vassaled player has "lost" the game from a gameplay perspective. It should never be something that a human wants to do. It's strictly meant for losing AIs.

If THAT is so, then there is virtually no reason whatsoever to keep the player identity alive. Keep in mind what happens in AoW 3 in case of surrender: The losing leader joins the victor (to fight for them), and the Throne City (only) becomes integral part of the winning empire. Makes sense. Why would you keep the player identity in PF, allowing that "mind-controlled" losing side an identity? For what?

I'd find it a lot better, when the the surrendering side would "evacuate" and leave, leaving the halfway dismantled rest of the empire to the winner, so that you had an easy trade-off: fight for the full gain or get half the value for free. Because the surrender option comes into play only when the situation is utterly hopeless and the result of the war, if it would continue, isn't in any doubt whatsoever.
 
Diplomacy system sounds a bit complicated to me, needs to see it in action to fully understand it.
But reading this I wonder couldn't Casus Belli and opinions be merged together? So very negative opinion works like Casus Belli? It's even mentioned they are tied so couldn't they be just a single value?
 
Coming in a bit late here.

I'm all for more diplomatic options if they make sense in context. Planetfall is already so much more than AoW3 was and I'm glad to see diplomacy getting some love.
One thing I liked about Endless Legend's diplomacy was the faction flavour text in negotiations. E.g. "We may be a race of insects, but we will not be crushed so easily."
Is that something we'll be getting than in PF?


On the topic of Vassals, I DO like JJ's suggestion of "electing" a new leader to run a defeated opponents empire. Maybe going into character creation is a bit time consuming, so perhaps it could spawn a random or generic leader/hero (namable by you) for that purpose.

Is there not a way we could integrate all of the above? It does already look like you can decline, so it's not being forced on anyone. Perhaps give them a choice, e.g. Join me as a subordinate (become a vassal as above) or die (leader disappears and the empire is up for grabs by the victor). Maybe in some games you don't want to give them a choice, and you'll want to dictate what you want to happen to your enemies - (perhaps this can be a setting?)

I play these kinds of games with 2-3 other people and I can see us really enjoying an option like this. E.g. Friend 1 defeats me fair and square, but I don't want to just log off and let them carry on the game without me, so I get the chance be a vassal under Friend 1, rebuild my forces and together we can take out Friend 2, who has now built up a large empire while we were fighting. I don't think I'm alone in thinking it could be a lot of fun if done right.
 
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The downside of vassal that can rebel are : If a player know that he can rebel he could be non cooperative to it's overlord and put unit at border.
-If you are a overlord you hate this so never vassalize better destroy in PvP so kill the fun.
- As overlord you will try to restrict your vassal in small manageable size : risky to have a big backstab
As EU4 and CK2 multiplayer veteran
there are some case like this and add the vocal chat and gg you have big coalition but you don't know who will backstab.
Exploit like this would be restricted a loser should support his overlord or face possible future destruction. Like replace RP the leader by another or use leader family in hostage (offscreen) for exemple.

That why non rebel vassal permit player to continue the adventure and in the same way let the good perk that you don't need to manage all the new land.
 
I think its apt that we are handling disagreements pretty well in the Diplomacy thread. XD

@JJ, I'm finding your posts a bit conflicted. In some posts you don't want the vassal player shackled. In others you seem to want them penalised further for entering into vassalage. (You've mentioned reducing their status to a dwelling and making them make a new leader (which would wipe xp?).)
I could be reading this wrong, but its like you aren't quite sure what you want in the realism vs gameplay aspect of this mechanic. Which is totally fair, because we are trying to find some way for a player that has lost to still participate in a meaningful way.

We need to put gameplay ahead of realism in most cases, more so in this one since quitting and starting a new game is a very strong alternative here.
So let's just drop all realism for the moment and focus on how we can make this fun.
 
No, it's an either this way or that - both would be fine for me. Meaning, if you just want a surrender mechanic, let the player just drop out and make it an AI vassal because as a "blind follower" you can let it cruise on autopilot.

But if you want to offer a serious alternative to quitting for the surrendering player, the player shouldn't be shackled ultimately. They should be seriously hindered and bound by treaties and so on, but there should be ways out of vassalage again. Wasn't it you who suggested the player could break free if the overlord didn't defend them in case of an attack on them?

So I think it's possible to go both ways (and in the end I don't care which one),. but I think the actual situation with the shackled vassal player isn't it for me.
 
Firstly I want to say that I think the vassalage system as currently implemented is probably pretty cool for playing single player and with the right group of friends (
If you play a FFA and are defeated just becoming a vassal to tag along and see how the game proceeds beats dropping out and later having to listen your friends talk about the game anytime!)
But i also think that it would be even more fun for the vassalized player if (s)he somehow could break free from the overlord independently.
With the current system the only way to free yourself is your overlord being defeated so I'm concerned that a player-controlled vassal will try everything to harm his overlord because after all this is the only chance to regain independence.
E.g. fortifying himself to make it unatttractive for the overlord to break the alliance while providing intel to the overlords enemies in the hope they'll beat him so the player can be free once again.

So here is another proposal on how vassalage could work:
A vassal can buy freedom. The price (s)he has to pay is 3 times the overlords points in energy and 1/2 of the overlords points in cosmite at the point of vassalage. Both amounts are reduced by the difference between the overlords current points and the overlords points when vassalage started. If the vassal buys freedom the vassals population shrinks by 1/4 and the overlord gets those as population boost.
During the vassalage everything stays as Lennart described it (vassal can't break treaties, overlord gets full intel etc.) + the Overlord get's 20% of the vassals energy and cosmite income/turn.

Of course the numbers are pretty random in this, so please view them more as a placeholder. What I hope could be achieved is that it is unfeasible expensive to buy yourself out of vassalage in the first ~15 turns after becoming a vassal, but if overlord and vassal both have somewhat successful games then 20-30 turns after vassalage the vassal could save enough money and due to the overlords progress it has become "cheap" enough for the vassal to buy himself out.

The main ideas are:
- It is beneficial for the vassal to help the overlord gain power, because that will make it cheaper to buy freedom (the more points the overlord gained since becoming overlord the cheaper it will be!)
- Having a prospering vassal is of course good for the overlord (% of the vassals income gained) and even when the vassal finally breaks away the overlord get's a nice parting gift in energy, cosmite and pop.
- Other players can help the vassal to buy freedom without having to defeat the overlord.
 
I thought the proposal earlier(from @HousePet, I believe) to have it as a gauge of military strength was reasonably compelling. AoW3 had score trackers for military and empire(domain) strength. So, if a vassal's values for one(likely vilitary, primarily, as a better determinant of comparative power) matched and overcame their overlord, they would gain the option to declare a war of independence/rebellion. That, or simply the option to declare secession, and have that be it. This would mean that a vassal could opt for military buildup and break free from their bondage, if they wanted to break free(!).

In either case, though, one would imagine the overlord would potentially need to receive a warning that their vassal was close to surpassing them. Either that, or just mindful observation to make sure your vassal's armies were not getting too large.
 
@Fenraellis I think the main problem in this scenario is that is sounds as if the "best" thing a vassal could do is to just take some scout unit, track your overlords main army and tell your overlords opponents how strong and where your overlords armies are, because if they are defeated it will be easier for you to become stronger in military than your overlord and break free. So it strongly encourages the vassal to be an asshole towards the overlord. So please tell me why under those circumstances it would be good for anyone to accept a vassalage instead of eliminating?
I believe to make the vassalage concept appealing for both players the Overlord must gain something for having a vassal, and if that vassal is a player it means the vassal must be encouraged to help the overlord not encouraged to harm the overlord as it is the case with "you can break free if your grow stronger in military" as realistic as that may be.
 
I was fairly sure the vassal, being in a forced alliance, would have vision of their overlord's forces and cities regardless, the same as a normal alliance.

So your scenario isn't really any different than the current situation, aside from the ability to break free without their overlord being outright eliminated, once their overlord's forces are sufficiently reduced relative to their own. Besides, in a PvP context, I'm pretty sure vassals will do what you say anyway(even without a means to break free preemptively), if they're not cooperative vassals, that is. Which leads back to my previous post stating that the system is largely redundant in PvP, and is primarily a PvA.I. mechanic. A vassalized player can't really tell other A.I.'s where their overlords forces and cities are, so the argument becomes moot in the context I was personally discussing it in. To reiterate, I'm mostly ignoring PvP for the reasons stated in my previous post, #41.


Now, one question might be "What determines whether an A.I. vassal decides to be content or rebellious/working-to-break-free?"

The easiest way, in my opinion, is probably basing it off a factor of reputation and faction-relations. The overlord's reputation would be a factor as a general sense of content under their rule, but the reputation of the vassal would also be an indicator for how likely they are to play along(and is likely tied to the personality assigned to them when the game was crafted, anyway). Then faction happiness should also play a factor as well, such that a vassal of the same faction is more likely to be comfortable under an overlord's rule(presuming the overlord's core faction likes them, of course!), than one of a faction their overlord has a terrible relationship with.

If above a certain threshold, then there should be a near certainty a vassal will never attempt to rebel, even if their power overcomes their overlord.
If below certain thresholds, then their should be an increasing chance, relative to threshold levels, a vassal will not just want to rebel if they gain enough military, but even actively seek to increase their military to gain the option to rebel.

That way, it fits rather organically into the reputation and faction-happiness systems the game already utilizes. Empires of the same faction(read: culture) will reasonably be more likely to coexist without much trouble, whereas ones of cultures with many and varied atrocities against each other are likely to never easily live alongside each other. Of course, sufficiently charismatic rulers can facilitate things, and despots may make subordinates feel concerned for their continued semi-autonomy and well-being.

So, essentially, treat their people nicely, and have a good reputation, and vassals are more likely to stay happy with their overlord. Be known for happily causing massacres of their people, and just generally doing that to anyone at a whim, and an overlord may find themselves hard-pressed to maintain vassals.
 

Foreshadow Behavior:
The diplomacy systems should clearly manage and communicate the changing disposition between players and foreshadow likely (AI) behavior like war declarations. In AoW3 wars were often declared with no forewarning and with few counter balances.

On the other hand diplomacy gets sometimes only really interesting when you don’t know what the other side is planning.

For example you started the game with an economic focus and peacefully colonizing new sectors when you encounter an opponent AI. Several turns later the AI leader explains that he just finished a new prototype (“making his forces practically invincible”) and demands 40 cosmite. Is it just a bluff? If you’ve already scouted some of his territory you can possibly make a good estimation. The leader personality could also give some hints. So, the main point is that unpredictability can add a lot of interesting tension to the game.

Btw this could happen the other way around as well: Let’s assume you’re planning to attack an adjacent player and thus command a strong military force. Then you might have a good chance to get some additional ressources from a third AI leader who is unsure about you intentions by sending him a ambiguous request (“An emergency happened in my conolies! I need immediately 300 energy”). If you’re unlucky though he doen't give you anything and just gets a weak Casus Belli.

I thought the proposal earlier(from @HousePet, I believe) to have it as a gauge of military strength was reasonably compelling.
If a vassal breaks free by force imho he should at least get a huge reputation penalty for breaking an oath, so no player will ever trust him again.
 
Penalties to breaking one's oath ofcourse, *unless* one has a Cassus Belli (manufactured or legit!)


Also, I don't see it as a given that the Vassal will see what the overlord is doing.

In fact I think it ought not to.

That way if they are sending a crow equivalent to stalk the overlord and pass on that Intel, well the overlord can denounce them and then destroy them.

So it would be a considered risk on the part of the vassal.


Overlord can see the vassal though, perhaps just their cities ?

Edit- @Fenraellis your post reads like I wrote it! :p
 
Having a vassal should generally be beneficial to the overlord. Otherwise the overlord would never accept vassalage, and it would be a feature that was never used.

Again, it's clearly meant to be a revamped surrender mechanism. If the surviving remnant is to be of any use to the overlord, it needs to be a permanent ally, with shared vision and everything that comes with that, otherwise the vassal is useless. Likewise, if the vassal requires the overlord to station significant forces to keep them pacified or otherwise invest significant resources to keep them happy, then it again becomes "not worth it" to accept a vassal, and the feature becomes pointless.

Relations are a particularly bad choice for determining break-away; they are in many ways outside the player's control (and, since the vassal has just been fighting an extremely nasty war, are probably strongly negative anyway; a system that encourages an AI vassal to rebel the turn after they accept is just frustrating and pointless).

Again, a vassaled faction is essentially defeated. It's not meant as a "go ahead and rebuild yourself" move; it's a "spare the overlord from having to do the last bit of mop-up" move. Having those cities and units run by an AI vassal is already going to be worse than you controlling them yourself (as the AI will always be worse than a good human player, unless we go full Skynet). Making it even more unattractive (by making the vassal have a chance of launching a pointless rebellion if you don't constantly send them gifts, or whatever) is not a good design.

Honestly, the only way it could potentially make sense is if the vassal's relative military becomes significantly stronger than the overlord's. Even that runs into being a negative feedback cycle (if you lose a lot of your military, not only are you weakened by those losses, but suddenly you have to fight your vassal as well). So it leads to questions about where to put that threshold, additional calculations for the AI, etc. "The overlord is eliminated" is a clear, objective threshold, avoids potential wonkiness (e.g. in the campaign) and is fairly intuitive.

If people really want, I imagine that CB conditions will probably be at least somewhat moddable to create a "vassals can rebel" mod. It just seems unlikely to ever come up enough to bother (as any AI sufficiently beaten to be willing to become a vassal should be sufficiently crippled as to not be able to ever pose a meaningful threat anyway).
 
If the surviving remnant is to be of any use to the overlord, it needs to be a permanent ally, with shared vision and everything that comes with that, otherwise the vassal is useless.

I think you misunderstood me:

Also, I don't see it as a given that the Vassal will see what the overlord is doing.


I don't think the VASSAL should have vision of the OVERLORD's empire.

The OVERLORD should have vision of the VASSAL.