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I'm Lazy.
Dec 12, 2002
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Radical Venetian Idea:

I post this as a separate thread, as it effects both the Habsburgs, Italy, and the Balkans. This is an idea I have been thinking about for some time, feel free to shoot it down if you please:


Move Venice to the province Mantua!


Pros: Makes more Geographical sense.
Styria can have the old Venezia province, and thus get their port
No land connection between Venice and Istria
Venice is more in the middle of Italian affairs
Um . . . it DOES look better, really, try it out!

Cons: We have to lose Mantua!!! (What was the point of that country anyhow?)
The whole "city/province names don't match!" thing
No space for Venecian historical expansion in mainland Italy (Hm, maybe that was the reason for Mantuas existence, though it is a wierd choice)


OK, that's all I can think of! Feel free to comment.
 
The more I think about this, the more conviced I become that this might be THE idea to solve a problem or two in the Adriatic (or maybe I am just egotistic :p )

Give Venice Mantua, Istria, Ragusa, Give Venezo (the prov) to Styria and Dalmatia to, whoever they decide upon in the Balkans thread, Bosnia, Ragusa, Venice, Hungary or whatever...
 
Hmm... interesting idea.

It could be made to work, though we'd have yet another debate over what to do with the resulting province...
 
We could make Veneto into Aquileia, which was what Venice and Hungary were fighting over in 1419...

Aquileia allied with Hungary, Hungary at war with Venice over Istria, Venice inevitably will attack and annex Aquileia in 1419-1420.

Yes it's a country that will last exactly one year BUT... there is no reason why Aquileia couldn't have survived longer than that, it was by no means doomed. The Patriarchs of Aquileia just picked the wrong side in the fight, as the Hungarians were too tied up in the north and west dealing with the Hussites and seigeing Dalmatia.
 
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italia.jpg


This actually solves a lot of problems and weirdness..

#1: Modena and Venice now share a border, whereas before they were 3 provinces away from each other.
#2: Venice and Milan now share a border, which allows for the historical rivalry there.
#3: Venice needs to kill Aquileia to get to their Dalmatian territories, also historical.

This adds another province to Venice though...
To weaken Venice in response, I propose removing all cores but from Mantua and Istria (their 'traditional' territories) Cause heck, according to game rules Durazzo should still be suffering a little nationalism from conquest. As well, Venice should only have Italian culture. Venice is going to be the strongest Italian player as it is, no need to make them obscenely strong. This would keep Venice from converting all their bloody provinces to Catholic too. Venice shouldn't have Greek anyways, they treated their Greek subjects like second class citizens. Also, this would slow down the insane Venetian tech speed.
 
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I'm all for weakening Venice by removal of cores, greek culture, and perhaps the addition of some Nationalism (I think it's possible to add in...). I am very intressted in hearing more opinions about this slightly odd idea


EDIT: perhaps Miland should get a base tax boost to improve it against Venice?
 
I'm torn. Geographically it's obviously wrong, but so what.

Aquilea is certainly a smaller and less interesting country than Mantua. Nothing like as big as this set up makes it look. Which is obviously true of Mantua as well. :)

We're moving towards setting up a monster Milan, which is actually kind of nice. But this doesn't allow give and take across the Lombard plain the way Mantua did. (Well it did it badly, but that's a little better than not at all.) But the border is nice.

By the way, can we start calling Modena Ferrara now that we've moved them?

I'm a bit worried that it weakens Venice too much. They were the most important Italian state militarily in the early period. (At any rate I'd leave their cores intact. Take away Greek, if testing shows it doesn't kill them, but leave the cores.)

It passes my province name rule, although only just. So I won't object on those terms, as long as we don't try to put Mantua somewhere else.

And I just hate to lose the congress of Venice event :)

The marriage of Vincenzo Gonzaga and Elizabeth Farnese has not been consummated. Her relatives claim that Vincenzo is impotent, the Mantuan court maintains that it is her fault. An alternate marriage with a Tuscan princess has been established, however, the Tuscan court insists that Vincenzo proves his potency. They have arranged a test in which he will have to perform with an orphan girl in the presence of eight women and a set of guards, priests and agents.
Click to expand...
Vincenzo did not perform in the presence of all the onlookers. Tuscany has reluctantly agreed to a second test, with another orphan girl. Vincenzo will be able to make 3 attempts, and all the witnesses but one will be behind screens. A doctor will examine Vincenzo during the act.
Click to expand...

I'm rather proud of that one. :)
 
I like the idea - it has the advantage, in addition to those set out by MKJ, of allowing Venice to clash with the Papal State over Romagna.

However, I very much dislike the idea of depriving Venice of Greek culture and/or cores on the Greek islands. Quite aside from the fact that Venice should be powerful in the early part of the game, it would encourage the Venetian player to neglect it's eastern possessions in favour of conquering main land Italy, which would be wrong. They were very important to Venice in real life (See the more than 20 year long war of Candia against the Ottomans for evidence of this), and without the correct culture they'll become closer to a burden.
 
What about
Mantua = Veneto
Veneto = Aquileja and Venetian Istria
Istria = Hapsburg Istria and Krain
?
 
OK, the issue of Greek culture and Venices cores needs to be debated, but I still think the original concept is sound, if in need of some HEAVY testing...
 
Originally posted by Mad King James
We could make Veneto into Aquileia, which was what Venice and Hungary were fighting over in 1419...

Aquileia allied with Hungary, Hungary at war with Venice over Istria, Venice inevitably will attack and annex Aquileia in 1419-1420.

Yes it's a country that will last exactly one year BUT... there is no reason why Aquileia couldn't have survived longer than that, it was by no means doomed. The Patriarchs of Aquileia just picked the wrong side in the fight, as the Hungarians were too tied up in the north and west dealing with the Hussites and seigeing Dalmatia.
Click to expand...


I just thought of something. Perhaps Aquileia is destined to become the Orleans of the future ? (Or at least of the AGCEEP)
 
Aquileja / Veneto could just start out owned by Hungary (and controlled by Venice). It's certainly not perfectly accurate, but better than using a tag for a country that existed for only one year.
 
Hi, I have a couple of questions

In debating moving Venice, I assume the CoT goes with it and teh higher growth rate now falls to Modena rather than Steiermark. Is this important?

Is Venice's defence compromised by moving into Mantua?
 
Originally posted by Twoflower
Aquileja / Veneto could just start out owned by Hungary (and controlled by Venice). It's certainly not perfectly accurate, but better than using a tag for a country that existed for only one year.
Click to expand...

That's awful though... what happens if Hungary wins? Aquileia sided with Hungary in disputes, but it wasn't part of Hungary itself.

If we're going that route, we might as well just have Venice start with it...
 
Originally posted by Philj
Hi, I have a couple of questions

In debating moving Venice, I assume the CoT goes with it and teh higher growth rate now falls to Modena rather than Steiermark. Is this important?

Is Venice's defence compromised by moving into Mantua?
Click to expand...

Of course the CoT is moved with it. And I can't really see any problems with Milan and Ferrata/Bologna getting the pop. bonus instead of Steiermark and Istria, population isn't very important after all.

As for defense, you lose the land connection between Hungary and Venice, so the initial war should fare even better then usual for Venice.
 
another benefit of this idea is that the hapsburgs could get a port more easily, now that veneto will be available for conquest. Another upshot is it stops you from invading up the coast from ragusa as the ottomans
 
But if Venice to annex Aquileia by 1420, how has the setup actually changed other than Venice getting an extra province? I guess I just don't see the viability of this option unless it results in Venice losing Istria(?) Because otherwise, as soon as it gets the Veneto province, we get that land border once again.
 
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