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Well, after some discussion the "Monarchs for doomed nations" thread, I decided to shape-up the Kazan Khanate a bit. First two historical events related to the turbulent 1549-1552 period:

Code:
#(1559) Söyembikä's regency
event = {
	id = 198002
	trigger = {
                OR = {
                control = { province = 271 data = RUS } #Vladimir 
                control = { province = 271 data = RUS } #Nizhgorod
                control = { province = 447 data = RUS } #Tambow
                control = { province = 453 data = RUS } #Ufa
                control = { province = 454 data = RUS } #Samara
                        }
}
	random = no
	country = KAZ
	name = "EVENTNAME198002" #Söyembikä's regency
	desc = "EVENTHIST198002"
	#-#Söyembikä was the daughter of Yusuf, the ruler of the Noghay horde who went on to become the wife of three successive khans of Kazan: Yan Ali, Safa Giray, and Shah Ali. Russian chroniclers described Söyembikä as a “lioness” who was energetic, beautiful, and wise. Following the death of Safa-Gäräy in 1549, Söyembikä became regent for their two-year-old son, Ütämesh-Gäräy. As regent she sought military help from neighboring Muslim states to resist Russian encroachment. In Tatar national history Söyembikä symbolizes her people's helpless resistance to Russian invaders. She has been the subject of popular Tatar stories, tales, epics, and paintings.

	date = { day = 2 month = april year = 1549 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME198002A" #Long live our queen!
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
                          command = { type = DIP which = 2 value = 20 }
		command = { type = relation which = CRI value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = AST value = 50 }		
		command = { type = relation which = SIB value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = RUS value = -50 }
	}
}

Code:
#(1549) Qolshärif - warrior poet
event = {
	id = 198003
	random = no
	country = KAZ
	name = "EVENTNAME198003" #Qolsharif - warrior poet
	desc = "EVENTHIST198003"
	#-#Qolsärif was a statesman and seid (religious leader) of the Kazan Khanate, as well as a famous Old Tatar language-poet whose poetry was included in "The Book of Baqirgan". He participated in diplomatic missions on behalf of Kazan khans to Muscovy and there carried out negotiations for the khanate's independence. In 1552 Qolsärif was one of leaders of Kazan's defense and organized a group of shakirds (students) to defend the Khan's Palace from the Russian troops of Ivan the Terrible.

	date = { day = 2 month = february year = 1549 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME198002A" #A warrior poet!
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 24 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 24 }
		command = { type = infra value = 100 }
	}
}
COMMENT: Otemish (1549-1552 ruler) was just a small child during these events, but the original monarch file makes it seem like he is a powerfull DIP 7/MIL 5/ADM 3 monarch. So I decided to add these two events. Not only they add flavor to this country, they also depict the historical situation of the period. Of course, since the two events add 3 DIP and 1 MIL via "Advisor-esque events, the ruler himself will be changed to:

Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067513 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1549
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1551
	}
	name = "Söyembikä (Ötemish)"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}

And now, the two ahistorical sucession events (in case Kazan survives longer than it really did), so we will have more historial rulers on the throne and avoid the "last in the list" to rule for 300 years or more.

Code:
#(1556) Nogai khans invited to rule Kazan - ahistorical
event = {
	id = 198000
	trigger = {
	exists = KAZ
	}
	random = no
	country = KAZ
	name = "EVENTNAME198000" #Nogai khans invited to rule Kazan - ahistorical
	desc = "EVENTHIST198000"
	#-#In 1565, Yadigar Muhammad died without an apparent heir. In response to the growing threat from the russian encroachment, Kazan statesmen led by Qol Särif have decided to invite Dîn Ahmad, leader of the Nogai Horde, to rule as Khan of Kazan. This strenghtens the ties between Kazan and the southern Tatar clans and allows Kazan Khans to claim Nogai lands.

	date = { day = 15 month = november year = 1565 } #speculative day and month

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME198000A" #May our Khanate prosper!
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 453 } #Ufa
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 454 } #Samara
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 455 } #Uralsk
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 513 } #Orsk
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 514 } #Irgiz
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 515 } #Alga
		command = { type = relation which = SIB value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = RUS value = -50 }
	}
}

Code:
#(1783) Quba khans invited to rule Kazan - ahistorical
event = {
	id = 198001
	trigger = {
	exists = KAZ
	}
	random = no
	country = KAZ
	name = "EVENTNAME198001" #Quba khans invited to rule Kazan - ahistorical
	desc = "EVENTHIST198001"
	#-#Bî Arslân, the last Khan of the Nogai dynasty, died suddenly in 1783. The sucession crisis made Tatar nobles to decide to invite the leader of the small caucasian Quba Khanate to rule over them.

	date = { day = 10 month = march year = 1783 } #speculative day and month

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME198000A" #May our Khanate prosper!
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = addcore_claim which = 471 } #Dhagestan
	}
}

Here are the rulers themselves. The Nogai ones were cut&paste from the original FtG Nogai monarch file, the Quba ones provided by me, but all are historical monarchs with real reign dates. The Quba was a minor khanate in the caucaus at the time.

Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067514 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1551
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = november	
		year = 1565
	}
	name = "Yadigar Muhammad"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067515 }
	name = "Dîn Ahmad"
	startdate = {
		day = 15
		month = november
		year = 1565
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1577
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 5
	dormant = no
	remark = "First ruler of the Nogai dynasty"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067516 }
	name = "Mirza Urus"
	startdate = {
		year = 1577
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1581
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067517 }
	name = "Enbei"
	startdate = {
		year = 1581
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1584
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067518 }
	name = "Ishterek"
	startdate = {
		year = 1584
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1613
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 5
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067519 }
	name = "Kanabai Mirza"
	startdate = {
		year = 1613
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1630
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 6
	dormant = no
}

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067520 }
	name = "Murin Beg"
	startdate = {
		year = 1630
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1650
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 6
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067521 }
	name = "Qarâ Beg"
	startdate = {
		year = 1650
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1675
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067522 }
	name = "Mûsâ"
	startdate = {
		year = 1675
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1710
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067523 }
	name = "Islâm"
	startdate = {
		year = 1710
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1730
	}
	DIP = 3
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 5
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067524 }
	name = "Tughan"
	startdate = {
		year = 1730
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1750
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067525 }
	name = "Kasbulad"
	startdate = {
		year = 1750
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1760
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067526 }
	name = "Arslân Beg"
	startdate = {
		year = 1760
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1771
	}
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 6
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067527 }
	name = "Bî Arslân"
	startdate = {
		year = 1771
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 10
		month = march	
		year = 1783
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067528 }
	name = "Fath Ali Khan"
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = march	
		year = 1783
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1789
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
	remark = "First ruler of the Quba dynasty"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067529 }
	name = "Ahmad Khan"
	startdate = {
		year = 1789
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1791
	}
	DIP = 3
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067530 }
	name = "Shaykh Ali"
	startdate = {
		year = 1791
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1806
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067531 }
	name = "Husayn Khan"
	startdate = {
		year = 1806
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1821
	}
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}

Now for Astrakhan:

Code:
#(1557) Civil war in the Astrakhan Khanate
event = {
	id = 116001
	trigger = {
		exists = AST
	}
	random = no
	country = AST
	name = "EVENTNAME116001" #Civil war in the Astrakhan Khanate
	desc = "EVENTHIST116001"
	#-#After the death of Darwish Ali, the Astrakhan Khanate is left without an apparent heir and the nobles begin to fight amongst themselves in order to establish their own candidates as the Khan. Many factions call for the installation of a foreign Tatar monarch as Khan.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1558 }

	action_a = {
		name = name = "ACTIONNAME116000B" #We will carry on!
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 48 value = 3 } 		
	}
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 013510 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1558
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1581
	}
	name = "Civil War"
	DIP = 1
	MIL = 1
	ADM = 1
	dormant = no
}
Code:
#(1561-1600) The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
event = {
	id = 116000
	trigger = {
		exists = AST
		exists = CRI		
		atwar = no
	}
	random = no
	country = AST
	name = "EVENTNAME152012" #The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
	desc = "EVENTHIST152012"
	#-#After the death of Darwish Ali, the Astrakhan Khanate disintegrated into years of civil war and chaos. At last, the pro-crimean faction inside Astrakhan prevailed and have decided to place the Girey dynasty on the throne.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1561 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1600 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152012A" #This is the end for the Astrakhan Khanate
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = vp value = -100 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRI value = 457 } #Astrakhan
		command = { type = trigger which = 152012 } #CRI: The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME116000B" #We will carry on!
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 3 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 152012 } #Crimea inherits Astrakhan
	}
}
Code:
#(1561) The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
event = {
	id = 152012 #triggered by AST_116000
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152012" #The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
	desc = "EVENTHIST152012"
	#-#After the death of Darwish Ali, the Astrakhan Khanate disintegrated into years of civil war and chaos. At last, the pro-crimean faction inside Astrakhan prevailed and have decided to place the Girey dynasty on the throne.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152012A" #This is the end for the Astrakhan Khanate
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = vp value = 10 }
		command = { type = inherit which = AST }
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 457 } #Astrakhan
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 455 } #Uralsk
	}
}
COMMENT: Civil war brakes out after the death of the last khan, after a few years on internal unrest, the Crimean dynasty is placed on the throne and as a result, Crimea inherits Astrakhan. Simple, no-nonsense solution to this issue. Astrakhan was always a rather weak khanate, it lacked inspired leaders, it lacked the zeal that Kazan's citizens had when it came to resistance against the russians or other ennemies. I don't think this khanate had much of a chance of survival and it historically had close ties with Crimea, so its logical that if anyone should inherit these lands it would likely be the Crimean khanate.

As for the crimean post 1793 monarchs, here is my suggestion:
Code:
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 037559 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1793
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1801	}
	name = "Baht Giray"
	DIP = 5
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 4
	dormant = no
}
Code:
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 037560 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1801	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1821	}
	name = "Selim Giray IV"
	DIP = 3
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}
Baht Giray died in 1801. I think we can reasonably assume that he might have ruled till his death if the Crimean khanate was not annexed by Russia. Selim giray was his son, or grandson who we know lived in turkey in the mid 1810s. I think we could assume (given te lack of info on his deathdate) taht he was young in 1801 and can rule till the end of the game.
 
Last edited:
Force annexed through a war or diploannexed? Do any of those nations after your changes have any cores on provinces of the others?
Perhaps better move the discussion to the thread about the golden horde and it´s splinter states as the reintroduction of the Nogai contains much more than monarchs of doomed nations:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?444502-AGCEEP-Central-Asia

Once diploannexed by Uzbeks, Once conquered by Uzbeks, once conquered by Kazakhs, once conquered by Astrakhan. And no, I made sure they had cores only on the provinces without any other cores (well, Russia getc ores on these later on, but at that time Russians didn't even arrive in the region).

EDIT: After 2 playtests, it seems that Crimea often gets annexed by the Ottomans. So to prepare for that:

Code:
#(1561-1600) The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
event = {
	id = 116002
	trigger = {
		exists = AST
		exists = SIB		
		atwar = no
	NOT = {
		exists = CRI
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = AST
	name = "EVENTNAME152012" #The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
	desc = "EVENTHIST116002"
	#-#After the death of Darwish Ali, the Astrakhan Khanate disintegrated into years of civil war and chaos. At last, the pro-sibir faction inside Astrakhan prevailed and have decided to place the Shaybanid dynasty on the throne.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1561 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1600 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152012A" #This is the end for the Astrakhan Khanate
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = vp value = -100 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SIB value = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SIB value = 457 } #Astrakhan
		command = { type = trigger which = 280002 } #SIB: The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 152012 } #Crimea inherits Astrakhan
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME116000B" #We will carry on!
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 3 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 280002 } #Sibir inherits Astrakhan
	}
}
Code:
#(1561) The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
event = {
	id = 280002 #triggered by AST_116002
	random = no
	country = SIB
	name = "EVENTNAME152012" #The End of the Astrakhan Khanate
	desc = "EVENTHIST116002"
	#-#After the death of Darwish Ali, the Astrakhan Khanate disintegrated into years of civil war and chaos. At last, the pro-sibir faction inside Astrakhan prevailed and have decided to place the Shaybanid dynasty on the throne.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152012A" #This is the end for the Astrakhan Khanate
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = vp value = 10 }
		command = { type = inherit which = AST }
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 457 } #Astrakhan
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = addcore_national which = 455 } #Uralsk
	}
}
COMMENT: In case Crimea does not exist, Sibir will inherit Astrakhan instead.
 
Last edited:
Well, after some discussion the "Monarchs for doomed nations" thread, I decided to shape-up the Kazan Khanate a bit. First two historical events related to the turbulent 1549-1552 period:
...

The trigger exists = KAZ for events of KAZ can be removed.
An event of KAZ can only fire for KAZ if KAZ exists so the trigger is useless.

The Söyembika event should take into account that MOS might not have formed RUS yet and reduce relations with them too. Perhaps add a countrysized trigger to the event - if KAZ is ahistorically large (e.g. >4 provinces) it has no need of a stab and MIL boost and the text about the failing resistance to the russian expansion would not fit.

The "addcore" command should no longer be used for new events. It´s the old EU2 command to add the only type of core back then but in FtG we have three types of cores which need a specific command. See:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?459110-Commands-and-triggers-list

As we don´t want to support any Khanat to exist beyond it´s historical deathdate we should not give them additional national (full) cores. Claimcores at best.

As e.g. Kazan even historically was not the most stable of realms introducing a new dynasty from abroad should not raise stabiltiy but rather *reduce* stability by 1. Their throne was always contested and when there is no apparent heir not all would simply accept a new distant ruler and be happy with it.
 
Last edited:
The trigger exists = KAZ for events of KAZ can be removed.
An event of KAZ can only fire for KAZ if KAZ exists so the trigger is useless.
Correct, I'll do just that.

The Söyembika event should take into account that MOS might not have formed RUS yet and reduce relations with them too. Perhaps add a countrysized trigger to the event - if KAZ is ahistorically large (e.g. >4 provinces) it has no need of a stab and MIL boost and the text about the failing resistance to the russian expansion would not fit.

I partially agree, however I don't think size of Kazan should be a factor. After all, Kazan might for example control Uralsk, Orsk or other provinces it takes from Tatar states deep in the south and east, while still having russians knock on the door of Kazan itself. I think its best to leave the triggers as they are, except maybe adding a trigger requiring that Russia controls any of Nizhhorod, Tambow, Valdimir, Ufa or Saratow (in other words, any province adjacent to Kazan). MUscovy alone will not have a core on Kazan, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

As for the MIL boost - you forget that I lowered the stats of the original monarch. Now if both of thee events fire, the stat boost will only raise Otemish to the stats he had in Vanilla. If either of the events does not fire, his stats will actually remain LOWER than they were before. So I'm not really making Kazan stronger, if anything I'm potentially making Kazan weaker (it will be made weaker in case its ahistoricallly strong or not threatened by Russia yet).

Thing is, Kazan was one of the stronger Khanates, despite its closeness to Moscow and being the "first in the way of russian expansion". In my test games, Russia takes Kazan well before the historical 1552 date, even if Russia itself suffers ahistorically strong opposition from Poland and Lithuania. In one of my hands-off games, Poland took Moscow Tver AND Ryazan away from Russia, but the seemingly crippled Russian state still managed to conquer and annex Kazan in the 1540s. So all in all, I think Kazan is already very, very weak as it is. That +1 stab will certainly not make it a Russia-defying monster state all of a sudden. If anything, Kazan could get a little boost to have a reasonable chance of surviving to the 1550s, as it never does in any of my games. On the other hand, in test games Astrakhan would sometimes last longer than historically. I hope my civil war event will fix taht and make it weaker, as it historically was.

The "addcore" command should no longer be used for new events. It´s the old EU2 command to add the only type of core back then but in FtG we have three types of cores which need a specific command. See:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?459110-Commands-and-triggers-list

As we don´t want to support any Khanat to exist beyond it´s historical deathdate we should not give them additional national (full) cores. Claimcores at best.
These cores will hardly help it survive longer in the hands of the ai. If anything, these will lead to more Tatar vs Tatar infighting and give the Russian ai and easier job. These will also give a human player a more reasonable chance to influence the region, which I think he should be entitled to in case of an ahistorically long survival and expansion. I still think giving these national cores is not too much and will become even more obvious if we include the Nogai horde as a separate state (in that case, Kazan will get a chance to inherit it).

As e.g. Kazan even historically was not the most stable of realms introducing a new dynasty from abroad should not raise stabiltiy but rather *reduce* stability by 1. Their throne was always contested and when there is no apparent heir not all would simply accept a new distant ruler and be happy with it.
I am forced to disagree here when it comes to historical events. The last khan Yädegär Möxämmäd was exactly such a "ruler from a new dynasty from abroad", as he was one of the sons of the Astrakhan Khan. And his coming to power stenghtened the Khanate and brought stability - enough so that the Khanate was able to actively resist the Russian invasion later on and forced the Russian Tsar to take Kazan by force, rather than have it succumb without a fight like Astrakhan later would. QolŞärif's policy and his influence on the election of khans from another dynasty greatly helped to strenghten the otherwise weak Khanate and at least it gave it a fighting chance and a will to resist the Russian invasion, rather than allow inactive submission.
As weird as it may seem, the 1540s and 1550s saw a gradual but steady growth of Kazan's cultural, political and military influence. By the time of the final Russian invasion, the citizens of Khanate were unified, determined and organized to resist - something they were unable to do in the 1530s. The fact that Kazan did fall in 1552 is in no way a testimony to the failing power of the Khanate (quite the opposite), but rather to the immense growth of Russian power under Ivan.

So summary of changes:
1) Changed the inherit events to addcore_national
2) Quba dynasty event is now just an addcore_claim (local political tradition separate from the steppe one)
3) Soembika event now ill fire only if Russia controls a province next to Kazan at the time of the event.
4) Removed the KAZ exist tags where they were not needed.
 
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...
I partially agree, however I don't think size of Kazan should be a factor. After all, Kazan might for example control Uralsk, Orsk or other provinces it takes from Tatar states deep in the south and east, while still having russians knock on the door of Kazan itself. I think its best to leave the triggers as they are, except maybe adding a trigger requiring that Russia controls any of Nizhhorod, Tambow, Valdimir, Ufa or Saratow (in other words, any province adjacent to Kazan). MUscovy alone will not have a core on Kazan, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Perhaps use the neighbour = RUS trigger to check the threat of russian invasion?

Thing is, Kazan was one of the stronger Khanates, despite its closeness to Moscow and being the "first in the way of russian expansion". In my test games, Russia takes Kazan well before the historical 1552 date, even if Russia itself suffers ahistorically strong opposition from Poland and Lithuania. In one of my hands-off games, Poland took Moscow Tver AND Ryazan away from Russia, but the seemingly crippled Russian state still managed to conquer and annex Kazan in the 1540s.

Russia has an event 271030 to ensure that they have good chances to annex Kazan. Between 1546 and 1600 they need only to control the province of Kazan and they will inherit it.

These cores will hardly help it survive longer in the hands of the ai. If anything, these will lead to more Tatar vs Tatar infighting and give the Russian ai and easier job. These will also give a human player a more reasonable chance to influence the region, which I think he should be entitled to in case of an ahistorically long survival and expansion. I still think giving these national cores is not too much and will become even more obvious if we include the Nogai horde as a separate state (in that case, Kazan will get a chance to inherit it).

National cores should only be given to states for provinces that they historically did rule completely for a longer period of time.
A Kazan that does live longer than it did historically did never actually rule the provinces that you want to give it cores on, so they should be at best claimcores.

Claimcores still give a casus belli on the owner of a province and allow to demand the province for lower warscore - but it will give full manpower and have no more nationalism/local resistance only after 30 years of owning the province, when it transforms into a national core.

Edit: I just noticed that in the disintegration of the Golden Horde events Uralsk and Orenburg are ceded by the GH to the Khanat of Astrachan. When you give Kazan cores on those two provinces in 1565 that might cause them to declare war on Astrachan. Is that intended?
 
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Perhaps use the neighbour = RUS trigger to check the threat of russian invasion?
Same story as before - they could have a border in some distant isolated southern region owned by Russia like Orsk or something that Russia won as a result of war with a different country. I firmly belive that its best to just checks if a RUS province borders Kazan.

Russia has an event 271030 to ensure that they have good chances to annex Kazan. Between 1546 and 1600 they need only to control the province of Kazan and they will inherit it.
Hmm... I'll have to look it up tomorrow. Obviously, Kazan fought tooth and nail for its independance in its later years like the 1550s (even though it was in an almost hopeless situation). But control demands that Russia first win a siege of Kazan, which is historical. So I'll leave it as it is.

National cores should only be given to states for provinces that they historically did rule completely for a longer period of time.
A Kazan that does live longer than it did historically did never actually rule the provinces that you want to give it cores on, so they should be at best claimcores.
I'm not sure, I remember zounds of cases where countries get cores on lands they never managed to keep, but ones they had "their eyes on". Like Turkey having a core on Vienna for example (there are many cases like that in FtG).
I will consider making these claimcores however. I would like to hear the opinions of other members firth though.

Edit: I just noticed that in the disintegration of the Golden Horde events Uralsk and Orenburg are ceded by the GH to the Khanat of Astrachan. When you give Kazan cores on those two provinces in 1565 that might cause them to declare war on Astrachan. Is that intended?
Yes. Especially since by that time, Astrakhan should not exist anymore - In 1561 it should be annexed by Sibir or Crimea (depending which one exists) as a result of the events I added in the previous post. If by a very rare fluke of fate, Both Kazan and Astrakhan exist in 1561 AND both Crimea and Sibir do not exist, then war is possible and under these circumstances I would see why.
 
...
I'm not sure, I remember zounds of cases where countries get cores on lands they never managed to keep, but ones they had "their eyes on". Like Turkey having a core on Vienna for example (there are many cases like that in FtG).
I will consider making these claimcores however. I would like to hear the opinions of other members firth though.

When you are looking at existing events you have to remember that everywhere you see the "addcore" command that is the unchanged version back from EU2 where that was the only command to add the only type of core that existed. AGCEEP has not yet gone through each and every event to look and change the old addcore to add national, claimcores or casusbelli cores where approbiate. The old command still works so there is no hurry to do so. However for new events and when an old event is to be changed we should take care to change the old core command to the approbiate new one. The TUR core on Vienna will be changed to a lesser core if my submission is included in the next version. ;-)
 
When you are looking at existing events you have to remember that everywhere you see the "addcore" command that is the unchanged version back from EU2 where that was the only command to add the only type of core that existed. AGCEEP has not yet gone through each and every event to look and change the old addcore to add national, claimcores or casusbelli cores where approbiate. The old command still works so there is no hurry to do so. However for new events and when an old event is to be changed we should take care to change the old core command to the approbiate new one. The TUR core on Vienna will be changed to a lesser core if my submission is included in the next version. ;-)

I'll have to think about it. I think the best solution owuld be to:
1) Make Kazan get it as claimcores IF we do not introduce Nogai Horde as an in-game country.
2) Make Kazan get naional cores if Nogai Horde is reintroduced and in 1556 Kazan merges with the Nogai horde (which will feature some unique events for it etc).
 
I'm strongly opposed to introducing Khanate mergers that never happened. Too much fantasy. Already the event with Nogai Khan being invited. It never happened. Normally, AGCEEP doesn't include fantasy events unless optional and marked as such, or unless they help put history gone wrong back on track (like the events of Lithuania forming Russia I once scripted :eek:o). We're not Aberration. Fantasy monarchs are included, marked by asterisks.

I propose following monarchs to be used for Kazan instead. I read up on Kazan history and made a more precise monarchs list. I also included Yusupovs as fantasy rulers. Why? They simply make sense, being closely related to actual rulers of Kazan, and do not require a strong fantasy changing the entire steppe setup into an imagined direction. Contrary to what Sabratha claimed, they taking the throne would not be equal to an annexation by Russia, as the family has a history of resisting Russian rule before they ended up being a Russian noble house long after Kazan fell.

Code:
############################################################################
# overhaul based on Hudyakov, "Outlines of History of Kazan Khanate", 1929 #
# http://kitap.net.ru/hudyakov.part04.php#h04_03                           #
############################################################################
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067512 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1533
	}
	deathdate = {
		month = march #more precise death date
		year = 1549
	}
	name = "Safa Giray"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 7
	ADM = 6
	dormant = no
}
#Ötemish, 2-year-old child under his mother Suyumbike's regency. 
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067513 }
	startdate = { 
		month = march
		year = 1549 
	}
	deathdate = {
		month = august
		year = 1551
	}
	name = "Söyembikä (Ötemish Giray)" 
	DIP = 2
	MIL = 2
	ADM = 2
	dormant = no
}
#anticrimean revolt, Ötemish and Suyumbike are surrendered to Russians
#Shah Ali is reinstated khan of Kazan, as Russian vassal.
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067515 }
	startdate = { 
		month = august
		year = 1551 
	}
	deathdate = {
		month = march
		year = 1552
	}
	name = "Shah Ali" 
	DIP = 3
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}
#Russians force Shah Ali to abdicate in order to annex Kazan to Russia
#Kazanians refuse to admit russian stateholder and invite Astrakhan Prince Yadigar
#He lead the defense during the siege
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 067514 }
	startdate = {
		month = march
		year = 1552
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1553 #captured on 2.10.1552
	}
	name = "Yadigar Muhammad"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 4
	dormant = no
}
#Tatar resistance invited Ali Akram, brother of queen Suyumbike, 
#son of Nogai Khan Yusuf. He was proclaimed Khan of Kazan in Chalym fortress.
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067516 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1553
	}
	deathdate = {
		month = may
		year = 1556 #killed by Russians after the fall of Chalym
	}
	name = "Ali Akram"
	DIP = 2
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}
###############################################################################
# Fantasy monarchs after resistance was suppressed historically               #
# for historical background see http://yusupov.org/knyazja_yusupovi.html      #
# and http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/moscow/3702/  (both in Russian language) #
###############################################################################
#Il' Mirza, brother of Suyumbike and Ali Akram, ancestor of the Yusupovs
#historically lived in captivity in Russia since 1556
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067517 }
	startdate = {
		month = may
		year = 1556
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1611
	}
	name = "Il' Mirza*"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 2
	ADM = 4
	dormant = no
}
#Seyush Mirza, son of Il' Mirza. 
#Fought in conflicts on south Russian borders
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067518 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1611
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1656
	}
	name = "Seyush Mirza*"
	DIP = 1
	MIL = 3
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}
#Abdul Mirza, since 1630 baptized as Dmitry Yusupov
#fought in Turkish war 1676-1681
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067519 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1656
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1694
	}
	name = "Abdul Mirza*"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 3
	dormant = no
}
#count Grigoriy Dmitrievich Yusupov
#close friend and advisor of Peter the Great
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067520 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1694
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1730
	}
	name = "Jurayj Mirza*"
	DIP = 5
	MIL = 7
	ADM = 7
	dormant = no
}
#count Boris Grigorievich Yusupov
#studied at Toulon, president of Russian commerce college.
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067521 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1730
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1759
	}
	name = "Murat Mirza*"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 7
	ADM = 8
	dormant = no
}
#count Nikolai Borisovich Yusupov
#Diplomat, patron of arts
historicalmonarch = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 067522 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1759
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1830
	}
	name = "Niyaz Mirza*"
	DIP = 8
	MIL = 3
	ADM = 7
	dormant = no
}
 
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I'm strongly opposed to introducing Khanate mergers that never happened. Too much fantasy.

Either way, we are looking at a fanstasy ahistorical situation in case of longer existence of Tatar states not conquered by Russia. A different choice of ahistorical leaders will not make any of this any less fantasy.

However, precisely because it is a fantasy outcome one way or another, I am not strongly opposed to any changes suggested (unless they are truely absurd). I don;'t want to give the impression taht I'm somehow adamant in my opposition to such hanges, as to be honest an ahistorical line of monarchs and events in the region is not of too much importance if you ask me. So if my suggestion concernign Kazan proved too controversial, sure let's have the Yusupov solution if other members also decide its the better option.

That still leaves us with Astrakhan. What shall we do with this one then?
 
Either way, we are looking at a fanstasy ahistorical situation in case of longer existence of Tatar states not conquered by Russia. A different choice of ahistorical leaders will not make any of this any less fantasy.

Ahistorical and fantasy are two different things. Look at the old thread about what constitutes "fantasy" here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?236478-Standards-for-fantasy-event-inclusion

A Kazan that simply stays a bit longer because it managed to fend off the muscovite attacks would be ahistorical. A revival of the golden Horde after it had vanished would be fantasy.
 
Ahistorical and fantasy are two different things. Look at the old thread about what constitutes "fantasy" here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?236478-Standards-for-fantasy-event-inclusion

A Kazan that simply stays a bit longer because it managed to fend off the muscovite attacks would be ahistorical. A revival of the golden Horde after it had vanished would be fantasy.

I disagree. According to the link you posted:

Events which are both "historically likely given conditions" and "difficult to achieve/unlikely for the AI to achieve by accident" are not really fantasy events in my opinion - they are merely alt-history events. The KOI events and the various alternate ends to the HYW are probably good examples of this.

The same really goes for the "historically likely" "easily achieved" events, but these are more dangerous because they can get in the way of modeling history. So if they indeed pose such a problem, they should be put in the fantasy-only file, and possibly be enabled only for human players.

Thus both my and Almoravid's suggestions should be defined as fantasy and not ahistorical (as they are "unlikely given the conditions"). An ahistorical solution would be for example to assume that if Kazan survives, Ötemish remains in power and continues the dynasty through his offspring (though since he died young, all his sucessors would have to be fantasy monarchs by our standards).

Thus we enter into a specific paradox. We can establish an "ahistorical" event (Otemish remains in power) that would require us to use "fantasy" monarchs, or use one of my or Almoravid's ideas, which is a "fantasy" event, introducing "ahistorical" monarchs.
The question is: What is worse: fantasy monarchs or fantasy events?
 
Iirc fantasy monarchs are marked by a "*" and alternative monarchs are marked by a "°".
I know. I asked:
"The question is: What is worse: fantasy monarchs or fantasy events? ", not wether fantasy monarchs are worse than alternative monarchs. Please read my post carefully.
 
Fantasy events, especially those involving cores and annexations, are a greater influence on the game world than just a name that otherwise would be "Kazan Khans" or some random-diced "Chingiz VI" and "Temür III". The asterisk shows these monarchs are not historical.

Case for Yusupovs: They are directly related to reigning house of Kazan. Il' Mirza, whom I propose as the first fantasy monarch, was an uncle of historical khan Ötemish, a brother of historical khan Ali Akram, a brother of Suyumbeke who was queen and a wife of three khans. The remaining 5 fantasy monarchs are his direct male descendants.

We can "reinstate" Ötemish for 1556-1566 if you want to (but IMO it just wastes an id). For 1566-xy, who is more legitimate and not a monarch of somewhere else already? Who is there with a comparable claim and can provide us with a dynasty stretching beyond 1694?

It's not against Sabratha and wasn't meant to undermine his effort to improve this mod. I simply want us to pick and include the best solution available. :)
 
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Fantasy events, especially those involving cores and annexations, are a greater influence on the game world than just a name that otherwise would be "Kazan Khans" or some random-diced "Chingiz VI" and "Temür III". The asterisk shows these monarchs are not historical.

Case for Yusupovs: They are directly related to reigning house of Kazan. Il' Mirza, whom I propose as the first fantasy monarch, was an uncle of historical khan Ötemish, a brother of historical khan Ali Akram, a brother of Suyumbeke who was queen and a wife of three khans. The remaining 5 fantasy monarchs are his direct male descendants.

We can "reinstate" Ötemish for 1556-1566 if you want to (but IMO it just wastes an id). For 1566-xy, who is more legitimate and not a monarch of somewhere else already? Who is there with a comparable claim and can provide us with a dynasty stretching beyond 1694?

It's not against Sabratha and wasn't meant to undermine his effort to improve this mod. I simply want us to pick and include the best solution available. :)

As I said: Yusupovs are a lot better than the Qasim option and having Kazan have its own separate rulers is not my main AGCEEP priority atm (which would be precolumbian america).

Still, the more pressing question is what to do with Astrakhan and later on Sibir? Astrakhan was weak and had little chance of remaining isolated if Russia doesn't conquer it.
 
Then let us make it weak, and see to it that somebody conquers it. Be it Girays or Ottomans, as both wanted to/tried at some point. :)

But: we shouldn't give annexation events to anybody who didn't actually historically conquer it.

We don't have Nogais as a nation, do we? I think we can then give Astrakhan some Nogai monarchs or, if nobody can find anything better, give them some "local leaders" or "Kurultai" monarch towards the end.