A bit confused (again) about control of conquered land

[berhaven]

AFAIK, conquered provinces should go to your country as a general rule with some expeptions:
When you invade from an allied (not puppet) territory the allied gets the land
When you "liberate" an allied (maybe also puppet) province they should get it

Unfortunately, I find more confusing happenings:
playing as UK or US, I was getting the German annexed provinces in France, including Paris, aftem my D-Day.
playing as Germany and attacking Bulgarian owned Pristina from my puppet Serbia Italy (my allied) got it even if they weren't fighting from Albania. A few days later, Greece (another of my puppets) got the province west of Istanbul after I conquered it attacking both from Serbian Nis and the Greek province in the west.
I'm a bit confused.
I'm not going to complain about the game design on these topics, I'm just asking myself and to the forum if there is a chance to mod it.

 

[lenny]

For the French provinces, they go to you because Germany annexes them through the Vichy event. Hence, it is occupied German territory, not liberated French in game terms. (BTW, this is also one of the reasons why the end of Vichy events are broken.)

For the Balkans, could it be that your puppets have cores on those provinces?

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Puppets add a third rule to the two that you mentioned:
When the master attacks from a puppet's territory, the master gets the territory, not the puppet.

That is normally useful but it can create situations where you have lost the direct land connection back to the capital. You might be able to keep on giving your puppet more territory when you find yourself in that 'need to convoy' situation.

The situation in France is very complicated as the game gives ownership of French provinces to the Germans if they do Vichy. France is also still in the game as part of the Allies. No matter how the game tries to resolve this situation, it will be messy, confusing, complex, and sure to create a lot of postings.

 

[berhaven]

For the French provinces, they go to you because Germany annexes them through the Vichy event. Hence, it is occupied German territory, not liberated French in game terms. (BTW, this is also one of the reasons why the end of Vichy events are broken.)

For the Balkans, could it be that your puppets have cores on those provinces?

Yes Vichy is broken. I tried to change the condition "Paris = French" to "Paris not German" but it still doesn't work.
Let me tell it's rather frustrating that - apart from cheating - the only way a good yankee player has to liberate French is to annex Germany (or conquer most of it and let the Soviet annex it) and then become crazy in several negotiations to give appropriate provinces to French. It even happened me that the French Player refused Paris because I forgot to give a correct chain of provinces!

... and I had to wait another week

 

[berhaven]

Puppets add a third rule to the two that you mentioned:
When the master attacks from a puppet's territory, the master gets the territory, not the puppet.

That is normally useful but it can create situations where you have lost the direct land connection back to the capital. You might be able to keep on giving your puppet more territory when you find yourself in that 'need to convoy' situation.

The situation in France is very complicated as the game gives ownership of French provinces to the Germans if they do Vichy. France is also still in the game as part of the Allies. No matter how the game tries to resolve this situation, it will be messy, confusing, complex, and sure to create a lot of postings.

When I attacked the Bulgarian province from Greece (my puppet) Greece took it (maybe they had core on it) . What messed me up, because the only reason I had to attack Bulgaria was to get a port on the med. You guessed that I forgot to take my paras back from Crete before annexing Crete

For the French question, I just don't get why Germany is annexing the non-core provinces on the Vichy event. Maybe it is needed to give a proper boundary to Vichy but it makes me go crazy.

How is it handled in the main mods?

 

[unmerged(3221)]

When I attacked the Bulgarian province from Greece (my puppet) Greece took it (maybe they had core on it) . What messed me up, because the only reason I had to attack Bulgaria was to get a port on the med. You guessed that I forgot to take my paras back from Crete before annexing Crete

For the French question, I just don't get why Germany is annexing the non-core provinces on the Vichy event. Maybe it is needed to give a proper boundary to Vichy but it makes me go crazy.

How is it handled in the main mods?

Best German strategy is to DoW and annex both Yugo and Bulgaria. Do not create Croatia. Do not puppet them. Then try to ally with Italy Hungary and Romania after you annex both Yugo and Bulgaria.

Ignore Greece unless Italy starts fighting the Allies over Greece. If you go after Greece, annex it. You can always check the core/national claims that a country has by using the diplomatic map mode on the right (not the political map mode on the left).

Germany gets ownership of the Vichy event provinces because control only means Occupied Territory Maintenace which would make accepting Vichy worthless. If HOI2 is like HOI, trying to handle the Vichy event and it's consequences will go thru a lot of changes without ever being completely successful. No matter how many changes were made regarding Vichy and it's consequences in the original, they always seemed to create more problems than it solved. The game engine doesn't seem to be able to handle the intracicies of this in a satisfactory way.

 

[unmerged(18202)]

The game engine doesn't seem to be able to handle the intracicies of this in a satisfactory way.

It's hard. How do you model a non-belligerent puppet that can be DOWed and invaded? That's really what Vichy was, although technically a neutral. It would take a new diplomatic status--perhaps just that, 'non-belligerent puppet,' with military access, the puppet resource gifts to the puppeteer. However, if you were at war with the puppeteer, you'd have to be able to DOW the NB puppet without a big dissent hit or being outright prohibited.

Hell, I don't know. I doubt it's easy to code in new diplomatic statuses, so I would wager we don't see a fix this time around. Too bad, because this probably could apply to some of the Allied puppets as well. I don't know of any instance where Iraq sent troops overseas to help the British, nor Nepal (national troops, of course), nor Bhutan, Tibet, etc.

jkk

 

[berhaven]

It's hard. How do you model a non-belligerent puppet that can be DOWed and invaded? That's really what Vichy was, although technically a neutral. It would take a new diplomatic status--perhaps just that, 'non-belligerent puppet,' with military access, the puppet resource gifts to the puppeteer. However, if you were at war with the puppeteer, you'd have to be able to DOW the NB puppet without a big dissent hit or being outright prohibited.

Hell, I don't know. I doubt it's easy to code in new diplomatic statuses, so I would wager we don't see a fix this time around. Too bad, because this probably could apply to some of the Allied puppets as well. I don't know of any instance where Iraq sent troops overseas to help the British, nor Nepal (national troops, of course), nor Bhutan, Tibet, etc.

jkk

Well the status of Vichy was really hard to define. Military access - for example - was never granted to Axis in Vichy North Afrika.