[WIP] The Seven Kingdoms

[Almaron]

Ooh, it's looking very cool! I'm presently going over a lot of notes and trying to track down as many potential titles for you guys to use...so that's taking a bit of a while to write up, but once it's done, I'll send it your way!

One note regarding the de facto setup of the Vale in game; from what I can see in the history, the borders between the Arryn and Royce realms weren't quite that neat. Initially, the entirety of the Vale was a mess of tiny First Man and Andal states, then the Royces of Runestone got all the remaining First Men houses to follow him, and he started conquering the Andal states, at which point they all united behind Artys Arryn. As a result, places like Coldwater Burn (the Fingers), Strongsong (the western Mountains of the Moon) and Longbow Hall (eastern Vale) were a part of the Royce realm, while neighbouring Heart's Home and Ironoaks (presumably) were a part of the Arryn realm. On that topic, we should try and find a different name to use instead of "Mountain Clans", because they didn't exist at this point in time...according to the history book, they came to be as a result of First Men fleeing into the mountains after the Arryns became rulers of the entire region.

Say, uh...this might seem a bit ludicrous, but would it be a good idea to actually have two completely different start dates; one set in the far past during the Hundred Kingdoms period, where every Lord was independent, and then one set during the Andal Conquest? It's just that...well, from what I can see, it looks like a good chunk of Westeros had consolidated itself by the time the Andals showed up - the North, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the Reach and the Stormlands appear to have been mostly united, and the Westerlands abd Crownlands partially so, with only the Vale and Dorne really being a mess of petty kingdoms. To get the best of both scenarios, I think it'd be worth considering adding an earlier period...

Argh, sorry; I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being needlessly nitpicky!

 

[Vierwood]

The changes regarding the Vale have been completed, I will most likely remove the Mountain Clansmen later today.

Regarding the earlier startdate, myself and Rowan had a later date in mind. Somewhere around 7500-7900, that way we can witness the Doom of Valyria. Also having all 7 Kingdoms fighting instead of 30 or so Petty Kingdoms will make hosting our multiplayer games easier.

 

[Lhutien]

One note regarding the de facto setup of the Vale in game; from what I can see in the history, the borders between the Arryn and Royce realms weren't quite that neat. Initially, the entirety of the Vale was a mess of tiny First Man and Andal states, then the Royces of Runestone got all the remaining First Men houses to follow him, and he started conquering the Andal states, at which point they all united behind Artys Arryn. As a result, places like Coldwater Burn (the Fingers), Strongsong (the western Mountains of the Moon) and Longbow Hall (eastern Vale) were a part of the Royce realm, while neighbouring Heart's Home and Ironoaks (presumably) were a part of the Arryn realm. On that topic, we should try and find a different name to use instead of "Mountain Clans", because they didn't exist at this point in time...according to the history book, they came to be as a result of First Men fleeing into the mountains after the Arryns became rulers of the entire region.

You are right in a way that the borders shouldnt be like they are, but keep in mind that we are stepping away from lore that is minimum about this time. In our opinion we have 4 kingdoms in the Vale, which are the Kingdom of the Sisters (A bunch of pirates), the Kingdom of the Fingers (Controlled by the Corbrays as it has been stated that they conquered it from the previous First Men king there), the Vale of Arryn and then the lands of House Royce.

I do not know where you get the claim about what the Mountain Clans mean, but they are decendents from First Men that refused the authority of the Arryns, it never stated that they did so after the Arryns conquered everything, considering that a part of the Vale was already conquered by the Arryns from the First Men.

Say, uh...this might seem a bit ludicrous, but would it be a good idea to actually have two completely different start dates; one set in the far past during the Hundred Kingdoms period, where every Lord was independent, and then one set during the Andal Conquest? It's just that...well, from what I can see, it looks like a good chunk of Westeros had consolidated itself by the time the Andals showed up - the North, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the Reach and the Stormlands appear to have been mostly united, and the Westerlands abd Crownlands partially so, with only the Vale and Dorne really being a mess of petty kingdoms. To get the best of both scenarios, I think it'd be worth considering adding an earlier period...

It has taken us a lot of time to create the characters for our start date that we have right now, making a second scenario where lore is basicly non existing would be a complete nightmare to create, not to talk about a way to simulate the actual Andal Invasion.


P.S.

I've added you to the team Almaron as a current contributor considering you have been helping us with the maps and some good suggestions

 

[N0body]

Ooh, it's looking very cool! I'm presently going over a lot of notes and trying to track down as many potential titles for you guys to use...so that's taking a bit of a while to write up, but once it's done, I'll send it your way!

One note regarding the de facto setup of the Vale in game; from what I can see in the history, the borders between the Arryn and Royce realms weren't quite that neat. Initially, the entirety of the Vale was a mess of tiny First Man and Andal states, then the Royces of Runestone got all the remaining First Men houses to follow him, and he started conquering the Andal states, at which point they all united behind Artys Arryn. As a result, places like Coldwater Burn (the Fingers), Strongsong (the western Mountains of the Moon) and Longbow Hall (eastern Vale) were a part of the Royce realm, while neighbouring Heart's Home and Ironoaks (presumably) were a part of the Arryn realm. On that topic, we should try and find a different name to use instead of "Mountain Clans", because they didn't exist at this point in time...according to the history book, they came to be as a result of First Men fleeing into the mountains after the Arryns became rulers of the entire region.

Say, uh...this might seem a bit ludicrous, but would it be a good idea to actually have two completely different start dates; one set in the far past during the Hundred Kingdoms period, where every Lord was independent, and then one set during the Andal Conquest? It's just that...well, from what I can see, it looks like a good chunk of Westeros had consolidated itself by the time the Andals showed up - the North, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the Reach and the Stormlands appear to have been mostly united, and the Westerlands abd Crownlands partially so, with only the Vale and Dorne really being a mess of petty kingdoms. To get the best of both scenarios, I think it'd be worth considering adding an earlier period...

Argh, sorry; I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being needlessly nitpicky!

Nitpicking is good, so no worries there! So far it has gone a long way to improving the borders and all that, so further changes to history (where feasible) would also be great.

I don't know a whole lot about the lore, especially during this start date, so this is something you and ZeroFighterR could hash out in the way of improving the start date. As for other start dates, they are most certainly on the agenda but our 6566 start date is currently our focus, which is a surprisingly large amount of work in itself.

It's a reasonably sparse lore-wise part of the history, which gives us flexibility (I hope) and is still rather divided, as my understanding is that though some of the regions may have been united (be it under a single king or due to alliances shared by multiple kings), they quickly fell apart when the Andals invaded.

We're looking at a partially united Reach, I assume, but I'm somewhat concerned about how that will go gameplay wise.

 

[blackninja9939]

It has taken us a lot of time to create the characters for our start date that we have right now, making a second scenario where lore is basicly non existing would be a complete nightmare to create, not to talk about a way to simulate the actual Andal Invasion.

Simulating andal invasions is not that hard compared to the massive amounts of history work, just have the east coast of Westeros be able to be attacked by a generated Andal warrior and give them a generic dynasty.
If they win or are a special character give them one of the canon dynasties etc.

 

[Almaron]

Nitpicking is good, so no worries there! So far it has gone a long way to improving the borders and all that, so further changes to history (where feasible) would also be great.

I don't know a whole lot about the lore, especially during this start date, so this is something you and ZeroFighterR could hash out in the way of improving the start date. As for other start dates, they are most certainly on the agenda but our 6566 start date is currently our focus, which is a surprisingly large amount of work in itself.

It's a reasonably sparse lore-wise part of the history, which gives us flexibility (I hope) and is still rather divided, as my understanding is that though some of the regions may have been united (be it under a single king or due to alliances shared by multiple kings), they quickly fell apart when the Andals invaded.

We're looking at a partially united Reach, I assume, but I'm somewhat concerned about how that will go gameplay wise.

Ah, phew! Well, then I'll keep it up!

Hmm, not quite, unfortunately...it's something like this;
*North - Already united under the Starks by the time the Andals showed up; easily repelled them as a result.
*Riverlands - Somewhat united under the Mudds (the exact borders aren't known, but the Justmans who succeed them are noted to have extended the borders to The Neck, Maidenpool, Duskendale and Rosby), but subsequently collapsed into petty kingdoms when the Andals invaded.
*Vale - Not united at all; fell quickly to the Andals (in some cases, petty kings invited them over to deal with their enemies, only for that to backfire).
*Iron Islands - Already united as a single Kingdom (potentially larger, and certainly more influential) under House Greyiron; Andal adventurers eventually travelled there and married the locals.
*Westerlands - Partially united; the Rock are known to have controlled the northern coast of the Westerlands, but their eastern border didn't go as far as the Golden Tooth by the time the Andals showed up, and after repelling a few invasions, they invited them to marry locals and create new families, whereupon they expanded and steadily annexed the remaining petty kings in later years. Their southern border is unknown; the histories don't note when House Crakehall and the neighbouring houses became part of the Kingdom of the Rock, but they might have held it considering that the Kings allied with the Stormlands to divide up the Reach some time before the Andals arrived.
*Crownlands - Somewhat united; Duskendale appears to have been the most prominent power in the region, but presumably local lords existed as it's noted that Duskendale sometimes claimed the Blackwater Rush and Crackclaw Point, but were never able to consolidate hold over it. The lands south of the Blackwater Rush were held by House Durrandon, although at the time the Andals showed up, Massey's Hook had revolted.
*Reach - Already united under House Gardener, which invited Andals to come and become vassals in return for land (with the Gardeners also converting early and offering rewards for blacksmiths and craftsmen who'd come to join their land). A few revolts broke out, but most of these new vassals were loyal and helped put them down.
*Stormlands - Already united under House Durrandon, but they lost Tarth, Estermont and the Cape of Wrath to Andal invaders. They managed to stop them from going any further, however, by encouraging them to fight one another.
*Dorne - Not united at all; lots of petty kingdoms existed (mostly along the Greenblood; at least a dozen petty kingdoms existed as a result of a dispute over who would be High King of Dorne) and the Andals easily invaded.

Simulating andal invasions is not that hard compared to the massive amounts of history work, just have the east coast of Westeros be able to be attacked by a generated Andal warrior and give them a generic dynasty.
If they win or are a special character give them one of the canon dynasties etc.

Yeah, sounds good (although perhaps there could be a pool of known Andal names for the adventurers to use? The World of Ice and Fire repeatedly names houses that were established during the Andal conquest, so we could use those)! And perhaps there could also be a Rhoynish colony event for Dorne? Nymeria showed up some time after the Andal Invasion...

 

[Vierwood]

Ah, phew! Well, then I'll keep it up!

Hmm, not quite, unfortunately...it's something like this;
*North - Already united under the Starks by the time the Andals showed up; easily repelled them as a result.
*Riverlands - Somewhat united under the Mudds (the exact borders aren't known, but the Justmans who succeed them are noted to have extended the borders to The Neck, Maidenpool, Duskendale and Rosby), but subsequently collapsed into petty kingdoms when the Andals invaded.
*Vale - Not united at all; fell quickly to the Andals (in some cases, petty kings invited them over to deal with their enemies, only for that to backfire).
*Iron Islands - Already united as a single Kingdom (potentially larger, and certainly more influential) under House Greyiron; Andal adventurers eventually travelled there and married the locals.
*Westerlands - Partially united; the Rock are known to have controlled the northern coast of the Westerlands, but their eastern border didn't go as far as the Golden Tooth by the time the Andals showed up, and after repelling a few invasions, they invited them to marry locals and create new families, whereupon they expanded and steadily annexed the remaining petty kings in later years. Their southern border is unknown; the histories don't note when House Crakehall and the neighbouring houses became part of the Kingdom of the Rock, but they might have held it considering that the Kings allied with the Stormlands to divide up the Reach some time before the Andals arrived.
*Crownlands - Somewhat united; Duskendale appears to have been the most prominent power in the region, but presumably local lords existed as it's noted that Duskendale sometimes claimed the Blackwater Rush and Crackclaw Point, but were never able to consolidate hold over it. The lands south of the Blackwater Rush were held by House Durrandon, although at the time the Andals showed up, Massey's Hook had revolted.
*Reach - Already united under House Gardener, which invited Andals to come and become vassals in return for land (with the Gardeners also converting early and offering rewards for blacksmiths and craftsmen who'd come to join their land). A few revolts broke out, but most of these new vassals were loyal and helped put them down.
*Stormlands - Already united under House Durrandon, but they lost Tarth, Estermont and the Cape of Wrath to Andal invaders. They managed to stop them from going any further, however, by encouraging them to fight one another.
*Dorne - Not united at all; lots of petty kingdoms existed (mostly along the Greenblood; at least a dozen petty kingdoms existed as a result of a dispute over who would be High King of Dorne) and the Andals easily invaded.



Yeah, sounds good (although perhaps there could be a pool of known Andal names for the adventurers to use? The World of Ice and Fire repeatedly names houses that were established during the Andal conquest, so we could use those)! And perhaps there could also be a Rhoynish colony event for Dorne? Nymeria showed up some time after the Andal Invasion...

While I do appreciate all the lore you've given us, lots of this we just can't do. Mostly for balance reasons. If we give the Gardeners the entire Reach no-one would be able to stop them in a war. Also the Westerlands and Iron Isles are going to be mostly divided to encourage interesting diplomacy.

 

[Almaron]

That's why I was saying it might be a better idea to create a separate start date set during the Hundred Kingdoms era...that point in time is effectively what you're after, with absolutely every part of Westeros divided into tiny warring states! Theoretically, it'd be quite easy to make...considering how static some parts of Westeros have been, a lot of the duchies and counties would be held by the same families in both a "Hundred Kingdoms" start date and an "Andal Conquest" start date; the only difference would be that there'd be some actual Kingdoms incorporating a bunch of them at the later date. Considering you noted earlier you'd like to make a Doom of Valyria start date as well, perhaps there could be three all up? "The Hundred Kingdoms" (a map based purely on the old legends of Westeros, so all the lands are held by the oldest known figures, and it's not meant to be 100% historically accurate, giving us a bit more freedom), "The Andal Conquest" (a map where a couple of the states have consolidated, but now Andal Hordes are set to invade and carve out fiefdoms via a recurring events), and "The Doom of Valyria" (a map where the Seven Kingdoms have finally formed)?

You are right in a way that the borders shouldnt be like they are, but keep in mind that we are stepping away from lore that is minimum about this time. In our opinion we have 4 kingdoms in the Vale, which are the Kingdom of the Sisters (A bunch of pirates), the Kingdom of the Fingers (Controlled by the Corbrays as it has been stated that they conquered it from the previous First Men king there), the Vale of Arryn and then the lands of House Royce.

I do not know where you get the claim about what the Mountain Clans mean, but they are decendents from First Men that refused the authority of the Arryns, it never stated that they did so after the Arryns conquered everything, considering that a part of the Vale was already conquered by the Arryns from the First Men.

Whoops, completely missed this message! With regards to the Mountain clans, I was basing it of this section from WOIAF; "The fate of the defeated [after the Battle of Seven Stars] was far crueler...Some of the First Men surely survived by joining their own blood with that of the Andals, but many more fled westwards to the high valleys and stony passes of the Mountains of the Moon. There the descendants of this one-proud people dwell to this very day, leading short, savage, brutal lives amongst the peaks as bandits and outlaws, preying upon any man fool enough to enter their mountains without a strong escort."
Based on the placement of it in the overall history text, it seems to suggest that the Mountain clans only really developed after the Arryns became High Kings of Mountain and Vale.

P.S.

I've added you to the team Almaron as a current contributor considering you have been helping us with the maps and some good suggestions

Ooh, thank you!

 

[Almaron]

Ooh boy...incoming textdump ahead that will hopefully be of some use. I just took another look through the World of Ice and Fire and at some of the many archaic titles listed on the ASOIAF Wiki ( http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Titles ) and I've used it to make this list of known titles and settlements that would have existed at this point in time, along with a few speculative titles using modern names, ideas for De Jure Kingdoms, and so on. It's...a bit of a mouthful, and I think I'll be resting for a bit now...

EDIT: Oh dear, I've just seen that the page has removed the formatting I used...uh, treat each grouping as a De Jure Kingdom, with each title below it as a De Jure Duchy.

Spoiler: The North

Wolfswood - Ruled by House Blackwood before the Starks exiled them to the Riverlands, and potentially also by House Glover. Judging by the extent of the Wolfswood on the official maps of Westeros, territory may extend as far as the Stony Shore in the west, Torrhen's Square in the south, Winterfell in the east and the realm of the Mountain Clans in the north.
Deepwood Motte - Seat of House Glover; former petty kings.
Sea Dragon Point - Ruled by the "Warg King", but also controlled by the Iron Islands at least once.
Bear Island - Ruled by House Woodfoot, and also by the Iron Islands on a few occasions. Area now ruled by House Mormont.

Warden of the White Knife - Held by House Manderly, but may have existed in the past for the rulers of the Wolf's Den. The Wiki cites the World on Ice of Fire as stating the Manderly Lands include the Sheepshead Hills and the Broken Branch river, so this, coupled with the Wolf's Den being held by House Flint at some point, suggests that the de jure Kingdom could cover the entire southeast region of "the North".
Wolf's Den - Held by Houses Greystark, Flint, Locke, Slate, Long, Holt, and Ashwood, prior to the founding of White Harbour nearby.
Oldcastle - Held by House Locke; former petty kings.
Blackpool - Held by House Slate; former petty kings. Tentatively placed in this area due to their connection with the Wolf's Den.

Barrow Kings/King of the First Men - Held by House Dustin; former petty kings. The official map of Westeros shows the Barrowlands spanning the lands south of the Wolfswood, but for game purposes, this could also be stretched to include the Stony Shore and Rills
Stony Shore - Ruled by House Fisher; former petty kings. Also controlled by the Iron Islands at least once.
Rills - Seat of House Ryder; former petty kings. Area now ruled by House Ryswell.

Red King - Held by House Bolton; former petty kings. Stretched from Last River to White Knife and the Sheepshead Hills, and also included the easternmost part of the Wolfswood (Highpoint, seat of House Whitehill), if taking into account the Telltale Game of Thrones game.
The Dreadfort - Seat of House Bolton

Last Hearth - Held by House Umber; former petty kings. Held land either side of the Last River, so presumably ruled the northernmost parts of "the North".
Breakstone Hill - Ruled by House Flint; former petty kings. Exact location is uncertain, but it is noted on the Wiki that it could be the seat of the mountain clan branch of House Flint. Alternatively, this whole region could be a separate Kingdom, based on the extent of the Frostfang mountains into the North as shown on the official map.
Karhold - Held by House Karstark; dating to a time after the Kings of Winter had conquered the area. An older castle may have existed here in the past, as it's noted that the Karstarks were given their lands after defeating a rebel lord. An earlier name to use could be "The Grey Cliffs"; a nearby natural formation.

King of Winter - Held by House Stark; former petty kings. For gameplay purposes, this realm will either need to be merged with the Wolfswood or made titular, as a result of the extent of the other known borders, it it will need to include the lands between the eastern Wolfswood and the western bank of the White Knife.
Winterfell - Seat of House Stark.

Marsh King - Held by the ancient rulers of the Neck at Moat Cailin. Now held by House Reed of Greywater Watch. The World of Ice and Fire suggests that the Kings of the Rivers didn't rule the area south of the Neck until the rise of House Justman during the Andal Conquest, and the official map of Westeros shows the marshes of the Neck extending as far south as the Twins themselves, so this could suggest that the Marsh Kings ruled the northernmost part of the Riverlands until the Justmans captured it.
Cape Kraken - Presumably held by House Flint of Flint's Finger. Held by the Iron Islanders on a few occasions, and the locals are even considered by some to be closer to the Ironborn than to the Northmen.

Skagos - Never a proper Kingdom, but a distinct cultural realm from the rest of the North, so deserving of its own Kingdom in-game.

Notes: By the time of the Andal conquest, the North seems to have been united under Stark rule (although there's a possibility that the Boltons and perhaps even the Greystarks at the Wolf's Den had risen in revolt), and it was able to resist the Andals when they attempted to invade. Prior to this, notes in the World of Ice and Fire seem to suggest that the most powerful Kings in the North were the Winter Kings (Stark), the Red Kings (Bolton), the Barrow Kings (Dustin) and the Marsh Kings (Reed).

Spoiler: The Riverlands

King of the Rivers (and Hills)/King of the Trident - Held by a number of dynasties, but House Mudd at the time of the Andal Conquest. According to the World of Ice and Fire, the Riverlands eventually expanded to the Neck, Maidenpool, Duskendale and Rosby during the reign of House Justman; the successors of House Mudd, so this gives us a good idea of just how far the de jure Kingdom needs to extend.
Misty Isle - Seat of House Fisher; former petty kings.
Raventree - Seat of House Blackwood; former petty kings.
Stone Hedge - Seat of House Bracken; former petty kings.
Oldstones - Seat of House Mudd; former petty kings.
Seagard - Seat of House Mallister, who became petty kings after the fall of House Justman.
Lord of the Crossing - Held by House Frey; dating to about six hundred years before Aegon's Conquest, so long after the Andal Conquest. However, the World of Ice and Fire mentions that this area was the narrowest part of the Green Fork, so a title of "The Crossing" could still be justified at this point in time. In addition to that, House Charlton - a modern vassal of House Frey - are said to have been petty kings after the fall of House Justman, so this could have been one of their titles.
Darry - Seat of House Darry. Not a petty kingdom, but significant enough to have a river named after it (most likely the large tributary of the Green Fork shown on the official map of Westeros).
Saltpans - Seat of House Cox and Hawick. Exact founding date uncertain, but potentially quite old.
Fairmarket - One-time seat of House Hoare. Exact founding date uncertain, but potentially quite old.

King of the God's Eye - Held by the legendary "Green King".
Harroway - Seat of House Harroway. Exact founding date uncertain, but potentially quite old.
Maidenpool - Seat of House Mooton; former petty kings.

Wayfarer's Rest - Not an official Kingdom, but House Vance is noted by the World of Ice and Fire to have ruled a petty kingdom during the Andal conquest, and again after the fall of House Justman. Since the area contains a number of hills, this could actually be the territory that the name "Kingdom of the Hills" refers to.
Riverrun - Seat of House Tully. Built after the fall of House Mudd, as a result of House Tully switching sides and gaining lands from the Vance Kings.
High Heart - Not a petty kingdom, but a distinct area that was supposedly held by the Children of the Forest at the time of the Andal Conquest.
Warden of the Southern Marches - Created by Robb Stark to incorporate the Southern Riverlands. Despite being a modern creation, the name could still have some use.

Notes: As mentioned above, the Riverlands didn't reach its modern size until after the Andal Conquest, but during that time appears to have been mostly united under House Mudd, at least until the Andals invaded.

Spoiler: The Mountain and Vale

Kingdom of the Fingers - Disputed between Houses Brightstone and Shell, and later inherited by House Corbray (of Heart's Home) after the destruction of both houses. Later claimed by House Royce of Runestone.
Lord of the Five Fingers - Held by House Corbray, who initially didn't use the title of King.
Coldwater Burn - Seat of House Coldwater, First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
Lord of the Snakewood - Held by House Lynderly. Not a petty kingdom, but a title still worth using.
Pebble - Seat of House Pryor; former petty kings.
Paps - Seat of House Elesham; former petty kings.

King of the Three Sisters - Held by House Sunderland. Was independent for many years and eventually ended up being disputed between the North and the Vale.

Kingdom of the Vale - First held by House Royce (as a part of the title of "High King of the Vale, the Fingers and the Mountains of the Moon") when they attempted to unite the remaining First Men houses against the Andals.
Bronze King - Held by House Royce of Runestone.
King of the True Men - Held by House Shett of Gulltown, before the Graftons took their lands and reduced them to vassals.
Merling King - Title linked to House Upcliff of Witch Isle (one ruler claimed her husband was the Merling King). Placed here based on speculation that Witch Isle is the island situated east of Runestone on the official Westeros map.
Redfort - Seat of House Redfort; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
Longbow Hall - Seat of House Hunter; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
Ironoaks - Seat of House Waynwood. Exact history is unknown, but it existed during the Andal Conquest, and may have been the seat of the unnamed "Hammer of the Hills"; an Andal petty king.
Grey Glen - Seat of House Tollett. Exact history is unknown; it was an Andal house and fought against House Royce, but in the present day it is sworn to them.
Ninestars - Seat of House Templeton. Exact history is unknown.

Kingdom of the Mountains of the Moon - Originally used by the First Men "Mountain Kings"; the last of whom (the Griffin King) was slain by a mythical figure said to have been an early member of House Arryn. Later used by House Royce, as noted above.
Gates of the Moon - Seat of House Arryn prior to the construction of the Eyrie.
Strongsong - Seat of House Belmore; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.

Notes: The Vale appears to have been the most divided location in Westeros by the time the Andals showed up, while other areas had consolidated their rule.

Iron Islands (High/Iron/Driftwood King, Kingdom of the Isles/Salt and Rock):

Notes: There's no point really listing anything here; each of the Iron Islands was traditionally its own Kingdom with two Kings (a Rock and Salt King; handling affairs on land and at sea, respectively), and at the same time, each of the ruling lords appears to have been a petty king at some point, at least until the Kingdom of the Iron Isles was established towards the end of the rule of House Greyiron. One useful note is that apparently although there are eight major islands that make up the Iron Islands, there are smaller islands nearby, bringing the overall number up to forty-four (thirty-one in Ironman's Bay, thirteen at the Lonely Light cluster).
Might be worth also trying to show the control they've had at times over Bear Island, the Misty/Shield Islands, The Arbor, Flint's Finger, and what appears to be chunks of the western coast.

Spoiler: The Westerlands

Westerlands (Kingdom of the Rock):
Kingdom of the Rock - Held by House Lannister. Potentially justified as a name for a large part of the Westerlands, as the World of Ice and Fire states that it was always the richest and most influential state in the Westerlands.
Casterly Rock - Seat of House Casterly, then House Lannister.
Sarsfield - Seat of House Sarsfield; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest.
Kayce - Seat of House Kenning, a house of Ironborn origin which defied their overlords and defected to the Lannister Kings.

Hooded King - Held by House Banefort; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest. Listed as a de jure Kingdom here simply because it's the only other known Kingdom in this part of Westeros.
Castamere - Seat of House Reyne; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
The Crag - Seat of House Westerling; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
Fair Isle - Seat of House Faircastle; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.

Crakehall - Held by House Crakehall. Listed as a de jure Kingdom here simply because it's the most prominent of the known First Men houses in this region.
Crakehall - Held by House Crakehall; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
The Bower - Seat of House Greenfield; First Men rulers prior to the Andal conquest.
Silverhill - Seat of House Serrett; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest.

The Hills - Speculative name for a de jure kingdom making up the eastern half of the Westerlands, which doens't appear to have been controlled until after the Andal Conquest; based on the area being contested with the Riverlands, who used the title "King of the Rivers and Hills", and also on the fact that the established name for bastards in the Westerlands is "Hill". Could potentially be called "Golden Tooth", based on the fact that the Golden Tooth guards one of the main routes into the Westerlands.
Golden Tooth - Seat of House Lefford; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest. Area apparently originally divided between three petty kings.
Ashemark - Seat of House Marbrand; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest.
Hornvale - Seat of House Brax; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest.
Deep Den - Seat of House Lydden; an Andal/First Men house established after the Andal Conquest.

Notes: By the time of the Andal Conquest, the Kings of the Rock are known to have annexed Castamere, the Crag and the Banefort, and began expanding their realm further eastwards after inviting the Andals to rule. It's not entirely clear when Crakehall and the southern Westerlands were annexed, but it seems to predate the Andal Conquest, as the Kings of the Rock and the Storm Kings warred with the Kings of the Reach some time before the arrival of the Andals, and the decisive Battle of Three Armies (won by King Garth Goldenhand of the Reach) is said to have "[fixed] the borders between the three kingdoms".
On another note, Houses Broom, Foote, Hawthorne, Moreland, Plumm and Yew are First Men houses that were likely petty kings in this area, but their seats and locations are unknown, so I wasn't able to include them in the above list.

Spoiler: The Reach

Kingdom of the Reach (Proper) - Held by House Gardener, and one of the official "Four Kingdoms of the Reach". Historically, this region included all the land north of Highgarden that today constitutes the Reach, but for gameplay purposes, it'd need to be broken up into smaller realms.
Highgarden - Seat of House Gardener; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Dustonbury - Former seat of House Manderly; exact location uncertain, but likely near Starpike.
Cider Hall - Seat of House Fossoway; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.

"Northern Reach" - Placeholder name for a de jure Kingdom required for balancing purposes. Includes the lands of three major lords who all swore fealty to the same King of the Reach; Garth the Great.
Goldengrove - Seat of House Rowan; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Old Oak - Seat of House Oakheart; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Red Lake - Seat of House Crane; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.

Upper Mander - Placeholder name for a de jure Kingdom required for balancing purposes. Includes lands that swore fealty to the same King of the Reach; John the Tall.
The Ring - Seat of House Roxton; an Andal house established after the Andal Conquest. Exact location uncertain.
Holyhall - Seat of House Graceford; an Andal house established after the Andal Conquest. Exact location uncertain.
Stonebridge - Seat of House Caswell. Known to have existed back when the Ironborn were able to raid the Mander, which was before King Garth Goldenhand conquered the Shield Islands.

Marshall of the Northmarch - Held by House Osgrey. Listed as a de jure Kingdom for balancing purposes. It's not clear just when the house was established, but it is known to have existed after the Andal Conquest, and the title presumably existed before then.
Coldmoat - Held by House Osgrey.

The Misty/Shield Islands - Presumably originally ruled by a "House Oakenshield", later held by the Iron Islands, and later captured by the Ironborn, before being recaptured by King Garth Goldenhand in the era before the Andal Conquest.
"Hewett" - Speculative name for the seat of House Hewett on Oakenshield; gained after being reclaimed from the Iron Islanders.
Southshield - Held by House Serry after being reclaimed from the Iron Islanders.
Greenshield -
Grimston - Seat of House Grimm; gained after Greyshield was reclaimed from the Iron Islanders.

Western Marches - Presumably held by House Tarly, and one of the official "Four Kingdoms of the Reach". Stretched from Horn Hill to Nightsong.
Horn Hill - Seat of House Tarly; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Starpike - Seat of House Peake; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Whitegrove - Held by House Peake; exact location uncertain.

Kingdom of the Arbor - Held by House Redwyne, and one of the official "Four Kingdoms of the Reach". Includes "Bastard's Cradle", "Horseshoe Rock", "Isle of Pigs", "Stonecrab Bay" and "Mermaid's Palace" around the Arbor proper.
Redwyne - Seat of House Redwyne; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.

King of the High Tower - Held by House Hightower, and one of the official "Four Kingdoms of the Reach".
Lords of Oldtown - Held by House Hightower.
Honeyholt - Seat of House Beesbury; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Blackcrown - Seat of House Bulwer; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Brightwater Keep - Seat of House Florent; a house founded by descendants of Garth Greenhand.
Sunhouse - Seat of House Cuy; an Andal house established after the Andal Conquest.

Notes: The Reach appears to have attained its present borders by the time of the Andal Conquest; the histories before that point mention how the Gardeners (already recognised as the "High Kings" of the Reach by the petty kings) steadily gained control over the rest of the area through marriage (High Tower), treaties (most of the Reach) and even conquest (Shield Islands), and around the time the latter was gained, the Reach is known to have bordered the Kingdom of the Rock and the Stormlands.
The World of Ice and Fire also mentions House Ball as a prominent First Men house, and names Houses Orme, Graceford, Uffering, Leygood and Varner as being Andal houses created after their founders were invited to the Reach, but none of the seats of these houses are known, so they are not included above.

Spoiler: The Stormlands

Kingdom of the Storm - Held by House Durrandon.
Storm's End - Seat of House Durrandon.
Bronzegate - Seat of House Buckler.

Lord of the Rainwood - Originally extended as far as Cape Kraken and included the Kingswood in the time before the Pact between the First Men and the Children of the Forest. Eventually shrunk down to the current size, but was briefly ruled by the "Green Queen"; a woods witch who also controlled Cape Wrath.

Kingdom of Massey's Hook - Held by House Massey, which broke free from the Stormlands on a number of occasions, and later by House Bar Emmon when the Andal Conquest began.
Stonedance - Seat of House Massey.
Sharp Point - Seat of House Bar Emmon; an Andal house.

Kingdom of Tarth - Held by House Tarth.
Evenfall Hall - Seat of House Tarth.
Morne - A ruin in Eastern Tarth that was the seat of a petty kingdom in Andal times.

Lord of the Marches - Held by House Caron. For gameplay purposes, it's probably best to rename this the "Eastern Marches", to go with the Western Marches of the Reach.
Nightsong - Seat of House Caron. Likely existed prior to the Andal Conquest.
Stonehelm - Seat of House Swann, located in the "Red Watch". Likely existed prior to the Andal Conquest.

Notes: Unfortunately, the history listed in A World of Ice and Fire is fairly vague when it comes to which houses exist, but the majority of the houses it mentions are said to have been sworn to Storm's End from "time immemorial", so we have no choice but to assume most of the major houses of the present day and their estates existed then, with the bulk of the Andal petty kingdoms existing around Cape Wrath. By the time the Andal's arrived, the Stormlands appear to have acheived their present-day borders, albeit also with Massey's Hook and the lands south of the Blackwater Rush included.

Spoiler: Dorne

Red Mountains - Claimed by House Manwoody prior to Nymeria's War. "Vulture King" might also be a term for the rulers of this region, as it has been used by a number of rebel lords in the Red Mountains.
Skyreach - Seat of House Fowler, which also used the titles "Kings of Stone and Sky" and "Lord of the Wide Way".
Yronwood - Seat of House Yronwood, which also used the titles of "Bloodroyal", "King of the Greenbelt" (presumably referring to the land along the river between Yronwood and Skyreach), "Masters of the Green Hills" (possibly an alternative name for the Greenbelt), "King of the Redmarch" (presumably an alternative name for the area near Wyl and the Stormlands) and "Lords of the Stone Way".
Starfall - Seat of House Dayne, which also used the title "King of the Torrentine".
Blackmont - Seat of House Blackmont.
Wyl - Seat of House Wyl.

Kingdom of the Brimstone - Held by House Dryland prior to Nymeria's War. An alternative name for the region could be Lord of the Wells, as this was a title used by the Sandy Dornish and also by House Yronwood when they claimed to be High Kings of Dorne.
Lord of Hellgate Hall - Held by House Dryland.
Hellholt - Seat of House Uller; an Andal House established during the Conquest.
Sandstone - Seat of House Qorgyle; an Andal House established during the Conquest.

Greenblood - Not an official petty kingdom, but a distinct area of Dorne where multiple First Men houses (including Wade, Shell, Holt, Brook, Hull, Lake, Brownhill and Briar) regularly elected a rival "High King of Dorne" to the Bloodroyals of Yronwood.
Sunspear - Seat of House Martell; an Andal House established during the Conquest on land originally held by Houses Wade and Shell.
The Tor - Seat of House Jordayne; an Andal House established during the Conquest.
Godsgrace - Seat of House Allyrion; an Andal House established during the Conquest.
Lord of the Red Dunes - Held by House Vaith; an Andal House established during the Conquest.
Spottswood - Seat of House Santagar; an Andal House established during the Conquest.

Notes: Dorne wasn't united by the time of the Andal Conquest, and is also noted to have had one of the higher number of petty kingdoms per regions in Westeros. It occurs to me that a separate Kingdom of the Broken Arm could be created out of part of the Greenblood, and there might also need to be some research done to determine which states are better represented with Duchies, and which are better represented with Titular Kingdoms, as places like Sunspear were sometimes vassals of The Tor, Godsgrace, or one of the unknown First Men rulers along the Greenblood.

Spoiler: The Crownlands

Crackclaw Point - A culturally independent area of the Crownlands.

Lord of the Tides - Held by House Velaryon in the present day. The exact rulers of the islands surrounding Dragonstone aren't known, so it could be worth using this as a non-specific title for a state in this region. Then again, with Valyria existing in-game, Lord of Dragonstone could remain a valid name for the region.

Lord of Blackwater Bay - Claimed by Salladhor Saan in the present day, but could be used as a name for a Kingdom in this region.

King of Duskendale - Held by House Darklyn. Borders varied, but did go as south as Blackwater Rush and north as Crackclaw Point at times.

Notes: Crownland history is a bit hard to come by in the World of Ice and Fire, since there isn't a specific section for it. Duskendale is often mentioned as the most significant location in the region, with no mention being made of Rosby, Antlers, Rook's Rest, Hayford and other known locations in the western Crownlands, and as a result it's not clear whether any of these settlements existed, or whether they were vassals of Duskendale or not. For gameplay purposes, it's probably best to assume they did exist.

 

[blackninja9939]

Please for the love of all that is holy and sacred use spoiler tags to condense your posts

Great write up though!

 

[Lhutien]

As I just woke up I wont respond to your big post up there, but:

Ah, phew! Well, then I'll keep it up!

Hmm, not quite, unfortunately...it's something like this;
*North - Already united under the Starks by the time the Andals showed up; easily repelled them as a result.
*Riverlands - Somewhat united under the Mudds (the exact borders aren't known, but the Justmans who succeed them are noted to have extended the borders to The Neck, Maidenpool, Duskendale and Rosby), but subsequently collapsed into petty kingdoms when the Andals invaded.
*Vale - Not united at all; fell quickly to the Andals (in some cases, petty kings invited them over to deal with their enemies, only for that to backfire).
*Iron Islands - Already united as a single Kingdom (potentially larger, and certainly more influential) under House Greyiron; Andal adventurers eventually travelled there and married the locals.
*Westerlands - Partially united; the Rock are known to have controlled the northern coast of the Westerlands, but their eastern border didn't go as far as the Golden Tooth by the time the Andals showed up, and after repelling a few invasions, they invited them to marry locals and create new families, whereupon they expanded and steadily annexed the remaining petty kings in later years. Their southern border is unknown; the histories don't note when House Crakehall and the neighbouring houses became part of the Kingdom of the Rock, but they might have held it considering that the Kings allied with the Stormlands to divide up the Reach some time before the Andals arrived.
*Crownlands - Somewhat united; Duskendale appears to have been the most prominent power in the region, but presumably local lords existed as it's noted that Duskendale sometimes claimed the Blackwater Rush and Crackclaw Point, but were never able to consolidate hold over it. The lands south of the Blackwater Rush were held by House Durrandon, although at the time the Andals showed up, Massey's Hook had revolted.
*Reach - Already united under House Gardener, which invited Andals to come and become vassals in return for land (with the Gardeners also converting early and offering rewards for blacksmiths and craftsmen who'd come to join their land). A few revolts broke out, but most of these new vassals were loyal and helped put them down.
*Stormlands - Already united under House Durrandon, but they lost Tarth, Estermont and the Cape of Wrath to Andal invaders. They managed to stop them from going any further, however, by encouraging them to fight one another.
*Dorne - Not united at all; lots of petty kingdoms existed (mostly along the Greenblood; at least a dozen petty kingdoms existed as a result of a dispute over who would be High King of Dorne) and the Andals easily invaded.

Yeah, sounds good (although perhaps there could be a pool of known Andal names for the adventurers to use? The World of Ice and Fire repeatedly names houses that were established during the Andal conquest, so we could use those)! And perhaps there could also be a Rhoynish colony event for Dorne? Nymeria showed up some time after the Andal Invasion...

The North wasn't united under the Starks, instead the Starks allied themselves with the boltons to chase them away, only to start fighting eachother again after they were done.
Riverlands is divided in several kingdoms, with the Mudds being the biggest
Vale is as you have seen already.
Iron islands has been divided in petty kings for balance reasons (they would be too strong united)
Westerlands is split in a few kingdoms, but the Rock and the Hills are the biggest ones.
Crownlands, divided in several kingdoms
Reach, divided in several kingdoms for balance reasons
Stormlands, divided in several kingdoms with the Durrandons being the strongest
Dorne, one big pile of a mess. But there are only a few Andal Lords (And I guess we gotta script the Martells coming along too)

 

[Almaron]

New
Please for the love of all that is holy and sacred use spoiler tags to condense your posts

Great write up though!

Ah, thanks for that! Updated now.

The North wasn't united under the Starks, instead the Starks allied themselves with the boltons to chase them away, only to start fighting eachother again after they were done.
Riverlands is divided in several kingdoms, with the Mudds being the biggest
Vale is as you have seen already.
Iron islands has been divided in petty kings for balance reasons (they would be too strong united)
Westerlands is split in a few kingdoms, but the Rock and the Hills are the biggest ones.
Crownlands, divided in several kingdoms
Reach, divided in several kingdoms for balance reasons
Stormlands, divided in several kingdoms with the Durrandons being the strongest
Dorne, one big pile of a mess. But there are only a few Andal Lords (And I guess we gotta script the Martells coming along too)

Hmm, whoops, I definitely goofed with what I said about the North (looking at it again, there's cause for the Boltons being independent and warring with the Starks just as the fighting begins...but due to the phrasing of the text and the ordering of events, it's hard to tell what had been annexed by this point. It appears the Barrowlands and White Knife had been, though, and there's a good chance the Neck had been...I'm short of time now, but I'll review my notes when I can and amend them), but the rest...well, that's why I was saying it might be better to do a separate start date that's set before the Andal Conquest, and back when each of the Seven Kingdoms were divided into lots of tiny petty kingdoms...that way, you get the best of both worlds, and it's historically accurate as well!

 

[Vierwood]

Quick Update



We've set up almost all of the Petty Kingdoms, save Dorne and the North.




I have begun further work on unique buildings such as the Viceroy's Palace.



We have decided to implement a 'Marshal' system in the Reach. This will reduce the centralization and power of the King in the Reach while creating interesting politics and interactions.






Also... He comes.

 

[Almaron]

Ooh, this is all looking very cool!

Say, on the topic of reviewing the history of the North? I'm going over it now and trying to collate a proper timeline, but it's proving to be quite difficult because there's some insanely contradictory texts in the World of Ice and Fire. There's an Iron King (Qhored "The Cruel" Hoare) who's said to have been a Driftwood (Elected) King who terrorised the entire west coast of Westeros, including the independent Kingdom of the High Tower...but he's also said to have destroyed House Justman, which would date him three hundred years after the Andal Conquest, by which point the Iron Islanders were ruled by House Greyiron and House Gardener had incorporated Oldtown into their reign. This one can easily be resolved if we assume that there were two Qhoreds (supported by a note that some claim he was a Greyiron or Blacktyde instead), but then there's stuff like Theon Stark and his descendants fighting a string of Driftwood Kings, while Theon Stark also invades Andalos during the Andal Conquest, by which point the Iron Islands didn't have Driftwood Kings. Aaagh!

On the plus side, though, I'm finding some key notes that could prove useful. A scene in A Dance With Dragons gives a timeline for how long several houses ruled the Wolf's Den, and also notes that the Greystarks were granted it after a number of Stark relatives, and ruled it for five hundred years until they "[joined] the Dreadfort in rebellion". Now, the history in WOIAF mentions that the Starks eventually conquered the Boltons just as the Andal Conquest was starting (also stating that they were their last rivals; suggesting the rest of the North had been annexed already, which means that the Wolf's Den would have been built already), but it also says they made common cause with the Boltons to turn back Argos Sevenstar when he attempted to invade. This suggests to me that Argos invaded as the Starks were dealing with a rebellion, but then the Boltons offered a White Peace (to put it in gameplay terms) and so the Starks were easily able to repel Argos.

As such, maybe that would be a way of weakening the North for gameplay purposes? Start the game with the North going through a Civil War with the Dreadlands (House Bolton) and White Knife (House Greystark) warring against their Stark overlords?

 

[Vierwood]

The Kingdom of the Dreadlands and the Kingdom of The White Knife are already independent kingdoms that will most likely end up fighting the Starks. As for the Ironborn, I may give a few Ironborn characters a province or two along the western and northwestern coast of the North to create a conflict between them and the neighboring Northern Lords.

Quick question. Who currently owns Bear Island? The Ironborn or the Mormonts.

 

[N0body]

Ooh, this is all looking very cool!
-snip snip-

First of all, thanks for all of your posts! They're shockingly detailed and I'll be more than happy to go over them and see what we can do - although it's running a little late, so I'm going to respond to this post (for now). Heck, I've still got to go over the provinces and borders of nations and shape them up more based on your suggestions (something Vierwood loves to remind me about )!!

Anyway, I'm personally not adverse to uniting some realms, especially if it makes more sense from a lore and gameplay perspective. However, I'm curious if pacts / alliances (I'm not sure how that feature works, though) might make more sense in some circumstances i.e. with the bickering Ironborn and their self-proclaimed moot kings, or the shaky alliances held by the partially united north (east versus west, maybe?).

At least, if we have united realms like the Reach with their Marshals, the government form/s or laws could be set out to weaken them as much as possible, preventing stomping of other realms.

Other realms may not cover the land they may or may not cover in the lore, but we can give them improved development to assure that they and their ruling houses not only survive, but also grow the power of their realm over time without railroading the experience, as other Kingdoms small and weak could grow to power with the right player or the right alliances.

 

[Almaron]

The Kingdom of the Dreadlands and the Kingdom of The White Knife are already independent kingdoms that will most likely end up fighting the Starks. As for the Ironborn, I may give a few Ironborn characters a province or two along the western and northwestern coast of the North to create a conflict between them and the neighboring Northern Lords.

Quick question. Who currently owns Bear Island? The Ironborn or the Mormonts.

The Ironborn...and they also held Cape Kraken! As noted above, the history is a bit confusing...King Harrag Hoare invaded the North, forcing the Stony Shore to swear fealty, reducing large parts of the Wolfswood to ash, and capturing Bear Island, which his son Ravos the Raper used as a base. King Theon "the Hungry Wolf" Stark repelled them and slew Ravos, but subsequent Driftwood Kings Erich "The Eagle" Hoare and Loron Greyjoy recaptured Bear Island and Cape Kraken, only for King Rodrik Stark and his descendants to later reclaim both. The problem with the history is that "the Hungry Wolf" is also supposed to have fought the Andal Argos Sevenstar during the Andal Conquest, but by that point in time House Greyiron had put an end to the elective monarchy of the Iron Islands...so there might have been more than one Theon Stark, and the Ironborn might have reclaimed Bear Island and Cape Kraken by the time of the conquest!

Hmm, with regards to the White Knife, who's ruling that? Another thing to keep in mind is that House Stark would control the Neck by this point in time; King Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den, then his son Rickard conquered the Neck...

First of all, thanks for all of your posts! They're shockingly detailed and I'll be more than happy to go over them and see what we can do - although it's running a little late, so I'm going to respond to this post (for now). Heck, I've still got to go over the provinces and borders of nations and shape them up more based on your suggestions (something Vierwood loves to remind me about )!!

Anyway, I'm personally not adverse to uniting some realms, especially if it makes more sense from a lore and gameplay perspective. However, I'm curious if pacts / alliances (I'm not sure how that feature works, though) might make more sense in some circumstances i.e. with the bickering Ironborn and their self-proclaimed moot kings, or the shaky alliances held by the partially united north (east versus west, maybe?).

At least, if we have united realms like the Reach with their Marshals, the government form/s or laws could be set out to weaken them as much as possible, preventing stomping of other realms.

Other realms may not cover the land they may or may not cover in the lore, but we can give them improved development to assure that they and their ruling houses not only survive, but also grow the power of their realm over time without railroading the experience, as other Kingdoms small and weak could grow to power with the right player or the right alliances.

Hehe, not a problem! Historic accuracy is my goal for this sort of thing...I'm determined to make things as good as they can be! Oh, if it makes things easier, I can send you the edited province map I made in order to get that first test image?

Hmm, I think it would depend on the area...the Reach, Stormlands, Iron Islands and the North (provided my previous note's conclusions are accurate) were almost certainly united by the time the Andals showed up, but if it's necessary to break them up, there could potentially be some sneaky tricks done to justify it...I'm reminded of how in a few cases Paradox has made certain vassal states independent or given them incorrect tier titles for gameplay purposes. Perhaps one house could be having a civil war, with multiple members of a house claiming a throne, or perhaps the larger a realm gets, the less CB options they have...ah, I dunno. Personally, I'd prefer the blobs if they're historically accurate.

One thing I will note, though; the Iron Islands? The Kingsmoots ended some time before the Andal Conquest, with House Greyiron declaring themselves kings after massacring the other claimants...but with this an ancient law that Ironborn could not fight Ironborn was undone...maybe that could come up somewhere?

Yes, that sounds good to me...if all else fails and there's not a known house for a region, we can always just use the modern house and take a lucky guess.

 

[N0body]

Hehe, not a problem! Historic accuracy is my goal for this sort of thing...I'm determined to make things as good as they can be! Oh, if it makes things easier, I can send you the edited province map I made in order to get that first test image?

Hmm, I think it would depend on the area...the Reach, Stormlands, Iron Islands and the North (provided my previous note's conclusions are accurate) were almost certainly united by the time the Andals showed up, but if it's necessary to break them up, there could potentially be some sneaky tricks done to justify it...I'm reminded of how in a few cases Paradox has made certain vassal states independent or given them incorrect tier titles for gameplay purposes. Perhaps one house could be having a civil war, with multiple members of a house claiming a throne, or perhaps the larger a realm gets, the less CB options they have...ah, I dunno. Personally, I'd prefer the blobs if they're historically accurate.

One thing I will note, though; the Iron Islands? The Kingsmoots ended some time before the Andal Conquest, with House Greyiron declaring themselves kings after massacring the other claimants...but with this an ancient law that Ironborn could not fight Ironborn was undone...maybe that could come up somewhere?

Yes, that sounds good to me...if all else fails and there's not a known house for a region, we can always just use the modern house and take a lucky guess.

I've been editing the province map slowly using your maps as a reference which is more than enough -- don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have used a modified province map, but what makes editing the map at the moment so tedious is duchy and province distribution over the various de jure kingdoms. With each province I move around, I have to check it is in a duchy that makes sense (both visually and gameplay-wise) and then, in some cases, make sure the duchy is a member of the right Kingdom (and once again if that makes sense visually and gameplay-wise). Aka a pain.

The Reach, for example, doesn't control the Cornlands despite what you have provided, as it would mean further strengthening an already very strong region (whilst weakening the Westerlands). Although I will probably review it and make some changes (may even move provinces 'up' and move one of the smaller Reach duchies there to avoid balance changes).

Having less CB options is certainly interesting, and possibly having laws to reduce levy amounts (or even vassal tax) could go a long way to nerf more united realms. We could even use adventurer threats, such realms (first men + old gods) could be under constant threat from external invasion. History wise, as usual, I'll have to speak to the others about it as it's what they're focused on doing. Would be nice to see some iron islander presence on mainland, imo.

 

[Almaron]

I get what you mean; when I first made my modifications I thought it'd be a fairly simple process, and then as I went on I had to add new provinces and I thought "Ugh, I bet I'm messing a lot of things up..."

Hmm, will that be a problem if the Reach is divided between those Marshals you've mentioned? Another thing to consider is that the Kingdom of the Rock is described a couple of times as being the most powerful of the petty kings because the gold inside Casterly Rock made them so rich. With that in mind, could they have some bonus that gives them the money to actually raise a decent liege levy? Or could the Reach by halted by a mechanic that simulates overextension, so they actually face revolts if occupying too much land?

Yeah, that would make things interesting...as noted, I think there were a few exclaves left by the time of the conquest, but just in the North...in the era before then there were more. Say, on that note...well, in an attempt to figure out the timeline a bit better, I made a giant spreadsheet and started grouping together events that were said to take place at the same time (for instance, if the same king was mentioned in both region's history). The exact timeline before the Andal Conquest (which I'm starting to think may have happened merely 2000 years before Aegon's conquest, rather than 4000!) largely remains a mess, but I think I have enough to write up a broad summary divided into five sections;
*Age of Heroes: Beginnings - Many noble houses and petty kingdoms are established in Westeros.
*Age of Heroes: Consolidations - In a few regions, powerful Kingdoms form and incorporate their rivals.
*Andal Conquest: First Part - Andals arrive and invade the Vale, followed by the Riverlands and Stormlands.
*Andal Conquest: Second Part - After conquering the Vale and establishing footholds in the Riverlands and Stormlands, Andals begin moving into the Westerlands, the Reach, Dorne, and finally the Iron Islands.
*Recent Histories - Events that are known to have happened up to 1000 years before Aegon's conquest, including the building of White Harbour, Nymeria's conquest of Dorne, the fall of the Riverlands, the Doom of Valyria, etc...

It'll still take me a while to write some of this up, but a "Consolidations" era game could be interesting; we're looking at every region except the Iron Islands being divided (the Reach would still have Hightower, the Westmarch and the Arbor independent, the North would still have the Kings of Winter facing the Red Kings, Barrow Kings and Marsh Kings, etc), and the Iron Islanders themselves demanding fealty from the entire western coast of Westeros (part of which they'd occupy) under Qhored I Hoare!

 

[Vierwood]

I have addressed the concern regarding the Kingdom of the Rock, they are by far the wealthiest Kingdom in the game.

Also regarding the Marshal systems, unfortunately it's the only thing we can do that really nerfs the Reach while staying relatively close to the lore. We can't create an over extension mechanic without butt loads of work, and there's the chance it won't work. Also overall in a multiplayer standpoint the Marshal system makes sense. In my experience playing CK2 AGOT MP, most people really want to play in the Reach, as it is a fertile and relatively nice place to play in. Because we have created the three marshals of the Reach, this allows basically four people to play as the Reach. Also as I said earlier it also helps de-centralize the King of the Reach, and will create a lot of interesting interactions between the King and his Marshals.