Western Europe 410-962 - The Winter King

[Tristanxh]

Also another topic, any chance we could expand the map from Hispania to Thrace? I know you guys said you wouldn't include Italy, and trust me when I said, that made me sad. But I was thinking about the dates and quite literally this mod's time period would be a perfect way to include Justinian, who would have the ability to send expeditions that act about like Mediterranean trade, except, you have a chance of "conquering" the province you send it to and basically you just gain extra taxes indefinitely (unless you get attacked which would be an event) and you would also gain mercenary units / increased levies (the choice between the two is hard, so I'll leave it to you guys) but the conquest can go poorly also and you get decreased levies to simulate the loss of men during the expedition. You wouldn't even have to add in the middle east this way. Another reason adding Thrace would help is that the Soissons stayed in contact with the Byzantines until Odoacer killed the last Western Emperor. When the Western Emperor dies you should get events as Byzantines, whether to ally with Odoacer or the Soissons, the Soissons give you a prestige buff and the Lombards give you a mercenary unit. (I think that sounds fair) This also gives the Soissons a chance at getting the support needed to conquer the Franks if the Byzantines side with them, it would give something like extra retinues, access to a Greek mercenary unit, prestige boost, and a permanent trade with the Mediterranean bonus. But the Lombards would lose their ability to conquest CB against the Greeks and would get prestige and maybe a few other things, definitely not as much support as Soissons would get. Also with Justinian's birth just around the corner, you could see a restore of the Roman Empire once he has successfully maintained all of his expedition land bonuses and conquered Italy with a Conquest CBs which should be given to him against all non-Roman / Greek land holders in the old Roman borders. I'm just saying, you can do some neat things with this, maybe we'd even have scenarios of Arthur meeting Justinian and seeing what happens.

 

[riadach]

What are the titles based off? Barony map? I posted a cantred map (trícha cét, middle Irish administrative division) here once which was based off earlier tribal boundaries. Many of those cantreds were named for the dynasties who controlled them.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/suineill.htm

This maybe be handy. You can see a lot of the dynasty names and their dynastic ancestors (many of which were sons of Niall Noígiallach). For instance you can see that the descendants of Loeguire had land in Meath (probably justifying giving some land to his son around that area), but Conall Cremthainne getting most of the land in the Eastern and Western part of the province.

 

[Ols]

Also another topic, any chance we could expand the map from Hispania to Thrace? I know you guys said you wouldn't include Italy, and trust me when I said, that made me sad. But I was thinking about the dates and quite literally this mod's time period would be a perfect way to include Justinian, who would have the ability to send expeditions that act about like Mediterranean trade, except, you have a chance of "conquering" the province you send it to and basically you just gain extra taxes indefinitely (unless you get attacked which would be an event) and you would also gain mercenary units / increased levies (the choice between the two is hard, so I'll leave it to you guys) but the conquest can go poorly also and you get decreased levies to simulate the loss of men during the expedition. You wouldn't even have to add in the middle east this way. Another reason adding Thrace would help is that the Soissons stayed in contact with the Byzantines until Odoacer killed the last Western Emperor. When the Western Emperor dies you should get events as Byzantines, whether to ally with Odoacer or the Soissons, the Soissons give you a prestige buff and the Lombards give you a mercenary unit. (I think that sounds fair) This also gives the Soissons a chance at getting the support needed to conquer the Franks if the Byzantines side with them, it would give something like extra retinues, access to a Greek mercenary unit, prestige boost, and a permanent trade with the Mediterranean bonus. But the Lombards would lose their ability to conquest CB against the Greeks and would get prestige and maybe a few other things, definitely not as much support as Soissons would get. Also with Justinian's birth just around the corner, you could see a restore of the Roman Empire once he has successfully maintained all of his expedition land bonuses and conquered Italy with a Conquest CBs which should be given to him against all non-Roman / Greek land holders in the old Roman borders. I'm just saying, you can do some neat things with this, maybe we'd even have scenarios of Arthur meeting Justinian and seeing what happens.

The maximum limit is the entire Western Roman Empire, though I might still exclude Africa. We could include Italy. I wouldn't want Thrace on the map though. Any further and we're stepping on the toes of WTWSMS which is not my intention. I'd like to find natural barriers such as the Elbe, Med and possibly the border between Dalmatia and Italy. I'm inclined to believe Julius Nepos should always die off screen.

 

[Tristanxh]

No, I'm talking about them referring to Pagan Magic as demonic, not their own. Example: We have a Druid and a Priest. The priest would denounce the Druid for using "Satan's Magic" while using magic from God. The Druid would say they're both just using elemental magic.

Hmm, I think it depends on what type of priest and what the druid is doing exactly. If the druid is simply healing people and doing all kinds of goodness, they might consider him a saint. Although some priests... Who are in the priesthood business for the money and not for the service of god and goodness would say he is using the devil's magic... Basically, the druid having good traits and heavenly virtues can over ride the fact he's a druid, UNLESS the priest has deadly sins / immoral traits. The effects of the Druid having good traits would also be amplified if the priest has good traits. It works well like that I think.

 

[riadach]

It's a mixture. Heroindog actually discussed adding more counties to set things more accurately. I'm not very familiar with modern or medieval Ireland so it's hard to read off the map and know where I'm supposed to stick stuff in. I can't place almost any Irish counties on the map, although I intend to learn in due time so it's easier to read from sources intended for modern Irish readers.

Counties are quite anachronistic.

This is the cantred map. The later paint lines suit the 12th century political divisions, but the blacklines show the basic units.

 

[Ols]

Counties are quite anachronistic.

This is the cantred map. The later paint lines suit the 12th century political divisions, but the blacklines show the basic units.

A lot of the sources I see mention modern or medieval subdivisions which are unfamiliar to me. I need more understanding of local geography to orientate myself. Counties are the base game's unit, so we have to use them as subdivisions even if we take a different name.

 

[Tristanxh]

The maximum limit is the entire Western Roman Empire, though I might still exclude Africa. We could include Italy. I wouldn't want Thrace on the map though. Any further and we're stepping on the toes of WTWSMS which is not my intention. I'd like to find natural barriers such as the Elbe, Med and possibly the border between Dalmatia and Italy. I'm inclined to believe Julius Nepos should always die off screen.

I am not familiar with WTWSMS, sorry. But I don't see how including Thrace would be too far. It quite literally is the most effective and natural border. Everything Eastward is cut off by the strait where Constantinople lies (Forgive me for not remembering it's name) and Northward you have the river that separates it from Dacia. Which I believe is the Danube. I definitely would exclude Africa and feel much more inclined on Thrace. I never said Julius Nepos wouldn't die, but if you read up about his death and what happened afterwards, you will see that the Byzantines preferred to give the Western Roman Empire to the Lomards rather than the Soissons and after which the Soissons cut off contact. But that was all caused by a stroke of a pen and we could have a very different history had they signed the treaty proposed by the Soissons rather than the Lombards. As both kingdoms had sent treaties. Besides, Julius Nepos death, if you add in Italy should be caused by a very large plot against him led by Odoacer, if Odoacer cancels it, (Only happens if a player does it) or the plot is revealed (Doubtful considering the fact his own spymaster would be in on it.) or some one kills Odoacer (The most likely possibility) Julius Nepos could live on longer and have a son, which would end that predicament, unless they kill his son or some emperor dies with no heir. Than using the event file you just replace Julios Nepos name with the name of the last holder of the Western Roman Empire.

I'd like to think of the idea as more on the line of opening up new possibilities that weren't available before rather than stepping into another mod. After all, Justinian reforming the Roman Empire and leaving it as a legacy to stand can't happen with the current mod. But more importantly it can make it easier on the Soissons should the Byzantines side with them, or nothing may change at all.

 

[Ols]

It's already being done in another mod - I want to concentrate on our reduced scope rather than going too far east.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?829142-WtWSMS-Presentation-Info-News-Links

 

[Tristanxh]

It's already being done in another mod - I want to concentrate on our reduced scope rather than going too far east.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?829142-WtWSMS-Presentation-Info-News-Links

Oh no, I don't mean that far east, most Eastern Roman provinces would just be a decision in an event and than a boost kinda like the reconquest boosts in Project Augustus. The boosts could be lost in random events, more less on the random part. Perhaps one event triggers other events and you have different measures you can take to try and prevent theses actions like reinforcing the garrison reduces the boost and instead of "Palestine Reconquered" it gives you "Reinforced Garrison in Palestine" and it cuts down chances of bad events happening and gives you a higher chance of not losing the province should the bad event happen. Ex. Normally event gives you "Defend Palestine: 50% chance of losing Palestine, 50% chance of garrison holding and losing troops" but when you have reinforced garrison you get "Defend Palestine: 25% chance of losing Palestine, 75% chance of holding garrison with minimal casualties" or something like that. The causalities would give you a debuff on the lines of "Heavy Causalities taken: -25% manpower" or "Minimal Causalities taken: -10% manpower." than you get down to an actual lose of province and you get "Lost A Province: -50% manpower, loses that provincial boosts also"

This way you still keep a smaller map but you could only reform the Roman Empire with the decision "Reform the Roman Empire: Requires Province of Italia, and boosts: Reconquered province of Syria, Reconquered province of Palestine, Reconquered province of Egypt, Reconquered province of Damascus, Reconquered province of Jerusalem, Reconquered province of Africa... Etc.."

I know it's a stretch... a big stretch, probably would take.. a while... (I've never really modded in this game before, other than flags.. and I failed so I really have no idea the exact time, just that it would take time) But it would definitely be awesome. You wouldn't be stepping on toes necessarily either, just because this mod is also in the Dark Ages doesn't mean that it's the same. After all, ignoring Justinian is ignoring the most influential man alive during that time. If you expand to Italy, in reality Italy gets captured by Justinian, so you have to have Justinian if you have Italy, and if you have Justinian you have to have Thrace... and if you have Thrace you have to include the other provinces in a way, but this way it would still be unique because you didn't actually include the provinces..

I know I'm writing a lot and half of it is probably glanced over, but it's my full suggestion.

 

[MoonBeam86]

I'm not saying we don't know when Urien was alive, I'm saying we don't actually know when Arthur was alive. Nor am I saying she inherited the kingdom, only that she was a queen. Even if she did inherit land at all, it would be from the Pendragon dynasty. Most likely, she would've gained land through some means is what I mean to imply, perhaps through dowry, (Though I doubt it.) or inheritance, though even more likely is that she probably gained land through a gift from her father, or uncles who were kings before Uther. There are many ways she may have obtained land, meaning it is all very possible and plausible to give her land, even if just so one of my friends can play as her in Multiplayer. (I'll just use console)

My logic was referring to your comment about Morgan marrying Urien Rheged - so in context of the books and how they fit with history it'd be easy to suggest this sister who appears with him within certain materials would have existed at the same time. She wouldnt have had land of her own full stop. Not a gift, not an inheritance - nothing - just wasn't how the Dark Ages was done - Cornwall himself specifically has his Kings treat their daughters as property which I'd imagine was more often than not the case.

Counties are quite anachronistic.

This is the cantred map. The later paint lines suit the 12th century political divisions, but the blacklines show the basic units.

Interesting question, would those eastern Irish counties be Brythonic?

 

[Tristanxh]

My logic was referring to your comment about Morgan marrying Urien Rheged - so in context of the books and how they fit with history it'd be easy to suggest this sister who appears with him within certain materials would have existed at the same time. She wouldnt have had land of her own full stop. Not a gift, not an inheritance - nothing - just wasn't how the Dark Ages was done - Cornwall himself specifically has his Kings treat their daughters as property which I'd imagine was more often than not the case.

I would bring up the possibility of a temple... but that is considered theocracy and wouldn't help my predicament anyways lol. For some reason CKII thought it smart to not allow playing as a Theocracy... God only knows why.

 

[Ols]

We can disable theocratic titles for Brythonic pagans if we want - we haven't chosen to yet though. Temples can be made to behave feudally.

 

[DC123456789]

Hey.... My friend, has the game, and has all mods deactivated other than this, he has no DLC other than Legacy of Rome, and is launching the game and it crashes at start, any ideas?

Make sure he's running the 2.2.1 beta with no other mods activated. If it still doesn't work try redownloading the mod.

Also another topic, any chance we could expand the map from Hispania to Thrace? I know you guys said you wouldn't include Italy, and trust me when I said, that made me sad. But I was thinking about the dates and quite literally this mod's time period would be a perfect way to include Justinian, who would have the ability to send expeditions that act about like Mediterranean trade, except, you have a chance of "conquering" the province you send it to and basically you just gain extra taxes indefinitely (unless you get attacked which would be an event) and you would also gain mercenary units / increased levies (the choice between the two is hard, so I'll leave it to you guys) but the conquest can go poorly also and you get decreased levies to simulate the loss of men during the expedition. You wouldn't even have to add in the middle east this way. Another reason adding Thrace would help is that the Soissons stayed in contact with the Byzantines until Odoacer killed the last Western Emperor. When the Western Emperor dies you should get events as Byzantines, whether to ally with Odoacer or the Soissons, the Soissons give you a prestige buff and the Lombards give you a mercenary unit. (I think that sounds fair) This also gives the Soissons a chance at getting the support needed to conquer the Franks if the Byzantines side with them, it would give something like extra retinues, access to a Greek mercenary unit, prestige boost, and a permanent trade with the Mediterranean bonus. But the Lombards would lose their ability to conquest CB against the Greeks and would get prestige and maybe a few other things, definitely not as much support as Soissons would get. Also with Justinian's birth just around the corner, you could see a restore of the Roman Empire once he has successfully maintained all of his expedition land bonuses and conquered Italy with a Conquest CBs which should be given to him against all non-Roman / Greek land holders in the old Roman borders. I'm just saying, you can do some neat things with this, maybe we'd even have scenarios of Arthur meeting Justinian and seeing what happens.

We will definitely not go as far as Thrace, that would expand the scope far too much and would also mean a massive map at this scale. Not to mention that it would take us months to build the map and just put in all the history, and probably years to flesh it out. Just completing Gaul is considered pretty ambitious considering our modding skills and available time at the moment. We do have some plans to eventually include Justinian as an off-map conqueror, though.

Counties are quite anachronistic.

This is the cantred map. The later paint lines suit the 12th century political divisions, but the blacklines show the basic units.

Ah yes, that's a useful map. So the green/black/red lines demarcate the tribes (and kingdoms)? Do you have a link to the original picture?

I would bring up the possibility of a temple... but that is considered theocracy and wouldn't help my predicament anyways lol. For some reason CKII thought it smart to not allow playing as a Theocracy... God only knows why.

Morgan holds no holdings in the books, which is our primary source for characters in Southern Britannia. At best she could be considered Merlin's regent in Avalon (until she converts).

 

[JasperClay]

Ah yes, that's a useful map. So the green/black/red lines demarcate the tribes (and kingdoms)? Do you have a link to the original picture?

That looks a lot like the SWMH map, which I think creates a gorgeous Ireland. I'd say SWMH's version should be the minimum amount of provinces for this zoomed-in map.

 

[DC123456789]

How many provinces does SWMH have for their Ireland? We currently have 44 provinces in Ireland, and that's with the rather large ones in Connacht and Munster.

 

[Tristanxh]

Make sure he's running the 2.2.1 beta with no other mods activated. If it still doesn't work try redownloading the mod.



We will definitely not go as far as Thrace, that would expand the scope far too much and would also mean a massive map at this scale. Not to mention that it would take us months to build the map and just put in all the history, and probably years to flesh it out. Just completing Gaul is considered pretty ambitious considering our modding skills and available time at the moment. We do have some plans to eventually include Justinian as an off-map conqueror, though.



Ah yes, that's a useful map. So the green/black/red lines demarcate the tribes (and kingdoms)? Do you have a link to the original picture?



Morgan holds no holdings in the books, which is our primary source for characters in Southern Britannia. At best she could be considered Merlin's regent in Avalon (until she converts).

He is using the right patch, I figured out what it is when he screen shared finally, he put the data from the mod into the CKII file rather than the CKII/Mods file.

I understand why you don't go as far as Thrace, but when it comes to Natural Boundaries, you don't get better, and if you add Justinian in as an off map conqueror, where would his capital be? He would function like an adventurer and his capital would become Rome if you made him like that, which would be completely incorrect. Also you could always add the history later... but the map size is where the real problems start. Overall you are going to have 1/2 of the CKII map if you expand out there and 2x the provinces. Meaning you have a 4:1 scale, at least by the time you finish Thrace. (If you ever do, do Thrace) Which if you did go that far you would have to create new types of titles... So you could have a dejure Roman Empire that includes the Imperium of Gaul. All sorts of problems with such a large map, but than again, it might still be a good thing. You never know.

I've never read the books, I should re-mention that. I was saying IF she HAD a holding... Also, the books aren't 100% correct, considering there is 0 evidence of her being hideously disfigured / burned. Most of the info in the books is simple speculation and story telling, because of the fact that most info of that time comes from oral tradition and nothing more. But the oral traditions don't even go into exact details.

 

[mjohnson85]

You are more than welcome to use my map if interested when it is done, even if you want to cut areas out/shrink it/whatever since we are focused (generally speaking) on the same part of Europe.

 

[Ols]

You are more than welcome to use my map if interested when it is done, even if you want to cut areas out/shrink it/whatever since we are focused (generally speaking) on the same part of Europe.

I think it's very likely that we will, although we'll probably try and expand it a little bit further eastward and tweak some of the geography as needed.

 

[DC123456789]

He is using the right patch, I figured out what it is when he screen shared finally, he put the data from the mod into the CKII file rather than the CKII/Mods file.

I understand why you don't go as far as Thrace, but when it comes to Natural Boundaries, you don't get better, and if you add Justinian in as an off map conqueror, where would his capital be? He would function like an adventurer and his capital would become Rome if you made him like that, which would be completely incorrect. Also you could always add the history later... but the map size is where the real problems start. Overall you are going to have 1/2 of the CKII map if you expand out there and 2x the provinces. Meaning you have a 4:1 scale, at least by the time you finish Thrace. (If you ever do, do Thrace) Which if you did go that far you would have to create new types of titles... So you could have a dejure Roman Empire that includes the Imperium of Gaul. All sorts of problems with such a large map, but than again, it might still be a good thing. You never know.

I've never read the books, I should re-mention that. I was saying IF she HAD a holding... Also, the books aren't 100% correct, considering there is 0 evidence of her being hideously disfigured / burned. Most of the info in the books is simple speculation and story telling, because of the fact that most info of that time comes from oral tradition and nothing more. But the oral traditions don't even go into exact details.

If you look at the scale of Britain, especially after our map overhaul, the proportion of provinces to vanilla provinces is much higher than 2:1; it's more like 4:1, higher in some areas (like Wales). Each duchy in BTWK roughly maps to a county in vanilla CK2. Expanding the map that much would be far too much work and really wouldn't fit the mod at all.

This mod was actually originally based around those books, and while it has grown beyond it the books are still the central source for Britannia. Important characters such as Arthur and Morgan are based on the books as much as possible.

On another note, here's the overhauled Wales:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Tristanxh]

Just wanted to bring up something bugging me about Eburacum, it was literally, the largest Roman Fortress in Brittania, (Which doesn't say that much, but still) and all we have to show for it is a tiny ass tribe? It should be a castle with some sort of ultra upgraded fortifications that can't be built anywhere else. (Kinda like Constantinople in the normal game) Or atleast something to show that it was a major Roman Fortress. The fortress remained manned long after the Romans left, it was one of the few settlements, that didn't hire Saxon mercenaries if I'm not mistaken.