The (un)Official Justice for Manichaeism Petition Thread

[CatilinamSum]

With how much attention the Moravia/Slovakia thread has received, I thought I'd try making something similar for the CKII cause nearest to my heart: Manichaeism.

Manichaeism is a fascinating ancient religion which remained relevant well into CKII's timeframe (unlike, say, Roman paganism). Founded by the Persian prophet Mani, it was influenced not only by Zoroastrianism, but Christianity and Buddhism. It taught a moral cosmology that emphasized a battle between good and evil. Now, I don't know about you, but all of that sounds pretty damn cool to me.

I'll keep it short since we've all heard it before. Manichaeism shouldn't be a Zoroastrian heresy, but a separate religion in the Mazdan group - and there are a lot of reasons why.

Reason 1: Almost all existing heresies were radical or short-lived splinter movements of their orthodoxies. This doesn't describe Manichaeism at all.

Although Manichaeism was persecuted by the Zoroastrian Sassanids, it was a religion unto itself, not an upstart movement or passing fad. Though little of it survives, a complete Manichean scripture is known to have existed. The Manichean church had a proper hierarchy. As a religious institution, Manichaeism endured for centuries after the collapse of its in-game orthodoxy of Zoroastrianism.​

Reason 2: Manichaeism was historically significant.

In antiquity, Manichaeism was briefly the main rival of Christianity during the twilight of the Roman Empire. It was so important that many Christian theologians wrote about it. St. Augustine of Hippo was himself a Manichean early in life who criticized their doctrines later on. They were said to have a significant population in France, as well as in North Africa.

Even if Manichaeism was mostly gone from the Mediterranean by 769, it was alive and well in its homeland of Persia and in the East. In the 700s, the Uyghurs and many other steppe peoples became Manicheans after being converted by missionaries. This demonstrates not only the relative reach of the Manichean church, but its status as a state religion for several major empires.

Manicheans also lived in India and Tibet. Manichaeism even spread to China, where it would influence the Red Turban movement that finally overthrew the Mongols near the end of CKII's timeframe.​

Reason 3: Manichaeism is a really cool opportunity for the devs.

Mani saw himself as a prophet in the tradition of Buddha, Jesus, and Zoroaster. He believed that his revelations were completing a sort of universal religious tradition. And guess what? All the religions that inspired Mani are already in-game, with their own unique features. Why not treat this as a chance to make Manichaeism a hybrid faith that blends the playstyles of Christianity and the Eastern religions?​

Reason 4: The framework for making Manichaeism a full religion is already in-game.

It bears repeating that Manichaeism is the only heresy with its own holy order and festival event. It has unique holy sites. It has a religious head. It has access to reincarnation events (in reference to actual Manichean beliefs). In other words, it already has as many features as Judaism and almost as many as Zoroastrianism. With a few more features thrown in, it'd be as complete as any of the game's main religions.​

Possible Manichean features:

• Ambition to reject sinful traits, like Buddhism
• Division into schools/sects, like Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism
• Learning bonus
• Heir Designation
• Unique monastic society
• Unique Great Work
• Unique interactions with China + possibility for Manichean dynasty in China
• Unique Artifacts: Seal of Mani, Book of Giants
• Morale bonus in home provinces (HIP)
• Expanded religious head system with Council of Apostles (HIP)

Possible Manichean heresies:

• Mandaeism, representing the sect from which Mani originated
• No heresy, representing the syncretic nature of the faith and the many ways it was practiced
• No heresy. Instead, Nestorian/Buddhist/Zoroastrian provinces can appear at low MA
• A heresy representing a different geographical incarnation of Manichaeism (like Chinese Manichaeism)

Let's show some support for this change and get it the attention it needs to be implemented.

 

[Me_]

I support this idea. I'm not sure what more could be said.
In-game Manichaeism already has enough features to work perfectly fine as a separate religion.
The only thing missing is a heresy for it and a blessing from the Devs.

 

[Farbolo]

Totally want this too.

 

[Immortal88]

Regarding your ambition to see the religion implemented I think we should at least also suggest coherent gameplay mechanics which made Manichaeism distinct from other religions.

Edit: According to wikipedia

In his mid-twenties, Mani decided that salvation was possible through education, self-denial, fasting and chastity. Mani claimed to be the Paraclete promised in the New Testament, and the Last Prophet.[19]

[...]

Mani's followers were organized in a church structure, divided into a class of "elects" (electi) and "auditors" (auditores). Only the electi are required to follow the laws strictly, while the auditores care for them, hoping to become electi in their turn after reincarnation.

Sounds interesting, maybe implement an "electi" character trait that can be gained by characters with enough learning who are also temperate or chaste (possibly men only as I would expect from a deeper look into the religion?). The trait could grant a massive opinion boost with other people of the same religion and add extra learning and piety/month at the expense of some fertility and perhaps the malnourished trait or some kind of fasting-related -0.5 health modifier.

 

[Oorlog]

Sounds easy enough to implement. I'm for it.

This makes me want a bigger restructure, like christianity before the split in 1054. Church conventions where you can refine/define the faith and or declare heresies and the pope/relgious heads trying to actively propagate this version.

 

[jonjowett]

I didn't realise just how wide-spread it was before your post - thanks!

A few questions that {someone who knows more than me} would need to answer:

• Name an appropriate heresy for Manichaeism. (Or more than one, if at all possible.)
  • Alternatively, can you justify Manichaeism having no heresies - like the Dharmic religions?
• How should this heresy be mechanically different to Manichaeism?
• What symbols should be used for the religion?
• How should Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism regard each other?
  • Infidels - like paganism or Islam. Holy wars fully unlocked.
    
  • Tolerated heretics - like Christianity. No holy warring between different branches.
    
  • Tolerance - Dharmic/Eastern.
• Should there be a religious head? Or a formable religious head?

 

[Me_]

I didn't realise just how wide-spread it was before your post - thanks!

A few questions that {someone who knows more than me} would need to answer:

• Name an appropriate heresy for Manichaeism. (Or more than one, if at all possible.)
  • Alternatively, can you justify Manichaeism having no heresies - like the Dharmic religions?
• How should this heresy be mechanically different to Manichaeism?
• What symbols should be used for the religion?
• How should Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism regard each other?
  • Infidels - like paganism or Islam. Holy wars fully unlocked.
    
  • Tolerated heretics - like Christianity. No holy warring between different branches.
    
  • Tolerance - Dharmic/Eastern.
• Should there be a religious head? Or a formable religious head?

For the first point, Wikipedia mentions the following sects within Manichaeism, one of which could be made into a heresy:

See of Babylon
Denawars
Albanenses
Astati
Chinese Manichaeism​

For the last two points, I would say:
Infidels
There already is a Manichaean religious head

 

[manager2525]

Interesting thread.

I see no reason why Manichaism shouldn't be its own relegion within the Mazdan group either from a historical or religious point of view. Perhaps the devs have not treated them as such for gameplay reasons?
As it stands there are more than enough playable Manichean characters to further justify making it its own religion.

I am not sure however which religion would fit as a Manichean heresy and if there should be one available at any case. Many have pointed out that Mandaeism should be the heresy for Manichaism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism) since they are both Gnostic dualistic religions. I am not sure if this is the best solution, however i do feel that making it have a religious head (as currently) like most Abrahamic religions plus giving it all the perks of the Eastern religions (like no heresy, possibly a choose religious branch etc) would make the religion too OP.

 

[Omega124]

Sounds interesting, maybe implement an "electi" character trait that can be gained by characters with enough learning who are also temperate or chaste (possibly men only as I would expect from a deeper look into the religion?). The trait could grant a massive opinion boost with other people of the same religion and add extra learning and piety/month at the expense of some fertility and perhaps the malnourished trait or some kind of fasting-related -0.5 health modifier.

I think this would better be represented by having Manicheans having access to monasticism. The electi were basically monks in all but name, given that they were expected to be celibate, dedicate themselves to learning, and separate themselves from secular society.

That being said, I actually have a unique idea for a mechanic for Manicheans: interactions with Christian heresies. During the time period of CK2, it was believed by many church officials that Manicheans were the ultimate source for the theology of various heretical sects that are already present in CK2 (Cathars, Paulicans, and Bolglimists are the three that come to mind). Due to the lack of any surviving written accounts from the perspective of these heretical groups, it is disputed nowadays whether this connection was actually true, but CK2 has always worked under the assumption that many things people believed in the time period are actually true for gameplay reasons (Like certain improbable genealogical connections, or the existence of a unified Satanic church). What if Manichean court chaplains, in Catholic or Orthodox realms, could unlock a special mission that allows them to spread heresy? These three heresies could also likewise have no opinion malus with Manicheans, further incentivisng Manichean realms to flip their neighbors so they will be more tolerant towards them.

I like this, since Manicheans already interact with heresy mechanics in a deeper fashion than any other heresy currently present in the game, and giving them a mechanic like this allows them to continue to interact with the mechanic even as they cease to be a heresy themselves.

 

[Me_]

I think this would better be represented by having Manicheans having access to monasticism. The electi were basically monks in all but name, given that they were expected to be celibate, dedicate themselves to learning, and separate themselves from secular society.

That being said, I actually have a unique idea for a mechanic for Manicheans: interactions with Christian heresies. During the time period of CK2, it was believed by many church officials that Manicheans were the ultimate source for the theology of various heretical sects that are already present in CK2 (Cathars, Paulicans, and Bolglimists are the three that come to mind). Due to the lack of any surviving written accounts from the perspective of these heretical groups, it is disputed nowadays whether this connection was actually true, but CK2 has always worked under the assumption that many things people believed in the time period are actually true for gameplay reasons (Like certain improbable genealogical connections, or the existence of a unified Satanic church). What if Manichean court chaplains, in Catholic or Orthodox realms, could unlock a special mission that allows them to spread heresy? These three heresies could also likewise have no opinion malus with Manicheans, further incentivisng Manichean realms to flip their neighbors so they will be more tolerant towards them.

I like this, since Manicheans already interact with heresy mechanics in a deeper fashion than any other heresy currently present in the game, and giving them a mechanic like this allows them to continue to interact with the mechanic even as they cease to be a heresy themselves.

I think it would be cool if the Gnostic religions and heresies liked each other more and had a common Monastic Society
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/gnosticism-–-new-property-for-religions-and-a-new-multi-religion-monastic-society.1185123/

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

I totally agree. I've been saying this for years now. The religion has a lot of unique elements and it could easily become a fan favorite if it's given a few unique systems and flavor.

 

[jonjowett]

I think this would better be represented by having Manicheans having access to monasticism. The electi were basically monks in all but name, given that they were expected to be celibate, dedicate themselves to learning, and separate themselves from secular society.

That being said, I actually have a unique idea for a mechanic for Manicheans: interactions with Christian heresies. During the time period of CK2, it was believed by many church officials that Manicheans were the ultimate source for the theology of various heretical sects that are already present in CK2 (Cathars, Paulicans, and Bolglimists are the three that come to mind). Due to the lack of any surviving written accounts from the perspective of these heretical groups, it is disputed nowadays whether this connection was actually true, but CK2 has always worked under the assumption that many things people believed in the time period are actually true for gameplay reasons (Like certain improbable genealogical connections, or the existence of a unified Satanic church). What if Manichean court chaplains, in Catholic or Orthodox realms, could unlock a special mission that allows them to spread heresy? These three heresies could also likewise have no opinion malus with Manicheans, further incentivisng Manichean realms to flip their neighbors so they will be more tolerant towards them.

I like this, since Manicheans already interact with heresy mechanics in a deeper fashion than any other heresy currently present in the game, and giving them a mechanic like this allows them to continue to interact with the mechanic even as they cease to be a heresy themselves.

I wish I could upvote this more than once.

 

[CatilinamSum]

• What symbols should be used for the religion?

I favor this one of a Manichean temple found in Tarim. It illustrates the "seven firmaments" or "seven heavens" concept that was mutual to Manichaeism and numerous other religions of the day.

Also from Tarim is this rather strange portrait of a Manichean worshipper. The wheel-like symbol at the bottom might fit our purposes.

If you want something more general, there is always is this Gnostic symbol. I believe that the WTWSMS mod uses it for Manichaeism. However, there is ongoing debate as to whether or not Manichaeism was truly a Gnostic faith or merely had Gnostic elements.

 

[stnylan]

I must agree I think Manichaeism is currently hard done by in its current CK2 incarnation.

 

[Aquamancer]

When it comes to proposing ideas for additions to Manichaeanism, it is probably a good idea to look at what kind of suggestions and mods players have made for Manichean faith in the past

In Historical Immersion Project, asides being non-heretical faith within the Zoroastrian group, Manichaean has following features not present in the base game:

* Manichaean armies receive +30% morale and +30% defensive bonus when fighting in their home territory.
* Upon adulthood, Manichaeans may choose one of the five Shekinah via decision
- Haunâ/Reason (+1 Learning, -1 Intrigue)
- Madde'â/Mind (+1 Martial, -1 Stewardship)
- Reyana/Intelligence (+1 Intrigue, -1 Diplomacy)
- Tar'îtâ/Understanding (+1 Diplomacy, -1 Martial)
- Mahíabtâ/Thought (+1 Stewarship, -1 Learning)
* Manichaeans have access to a special Patronize Art decision, giving +0.2 monthly prestige & karma at the expence of some gold upfront and -5% demesne tax.
- "Religious artwork is important to the Manichaean faith. Mani himself was known as "the Artist", and Manichaean rulers would donate their wealth to support the creation of new artistic works."
* The Yamag is elected by a Council of Apostles in the same manner as Catholic cardinals
* The Yamag may be vassalized by a more powerful Manichean ruler even if they are landed
* Mandaean faith is added as Manichaean heresy: functionally, it is the same as Manichaean in all gameplay aspects, but they don't have a religious head title.

In other forum proposals, following features were suggested:
- Rather than being part of the Mazdan religious group, Manichaean faith should be part of the Gnostic religious group
- Manichaean could have reduced opinion penalty with Paulicians, Bogomilists and Cathars, considering that they are all considered gnostic religions
- Other possible choices for a Manichaean heresy could be Denawar/Dinavarya, Mandaean, Elkasite/Ebonite, Bardaisanism, Sabian, Albanenses, Astati, Priscillian, and possibly Sethian, Valentinian, Simonian, Archontics, etc.
- Alternatively, like the eastern religions, Manichaean religion might not necessarily need heresies
- A replacement heresy for Manichaean in Zoroastrianism could be Khurramite/Khorrami, Behafaridite, Zurvanite, Ustadh Sis, Mithraism, and/or Yarsanism.
- +1 bonus to Learning
- Special education events, including reading picture books
- Manicheans can gain boons from their religious brethren in China, until the Tang Emperor destroys the Manichean community in China

There's probably plenty of other stuff which could be added to Manichaeanism, if people were to do really thorough research into the religion, never mind all of the other suggestions and mods to Manichaeanism that I wasn't able to dig up within an hour, but here's some food for thought and material for further discussion.

 

[Me_]

For the record the current features of Manichaean religion are:
- a religious head (always active can grant divorces and invasions but does not have any Great Holy Wars)
- can Celebrate Bema (festival)
- female temple holders
- can form Holy Order "Army of Light"
- can order people to retire to monastery
- intermarry Zun, Buddhist, Taoist, Nestorian, Tengri and all of the Mazdan group.

As a side note, if anyone can suggest any Manichaean-specific artifacts, those would be a good addition as well.

 

[spendabuck]

When it comes to proposing ideas for additions to Manichaeanism, it is probably a good idea to look at what kind of suggestions and mods players have made for Manichean faith in the past

In Historical Immersion Project, asides being non-heretical faith within the Zoroastrian group, Manichaean has following features not present in the base game:

* Manichaean armies receive +30% morale and +30% defensive bonus when fighting in their home territory.
* Upon adulthood, Manichaeans may choose one of the five Shekinah via decision
- Haunâ/Reason (+1 Learning, -1 Intrigue)
- Madde'â/Mind (+1 Martial, -1 Stewardship)
- Reyana/Intelligence (+1 Intrigue, -1 Diplomacy)
- Tar'îtâ/Understanding (+1 Diplomacy, -1 Martial)
- Mahíabtâ/Thought (+1 Stewarship, -1 Learning)
* Manichaeans have access to a special Patronize Art decision, giving +0.2 monthly prestige & karma at the expence of some gold upfront and -5% demesne tax.
- "Religious artwork is important to the Manichaean faith. Mani himself was known as "the Artist", and Manichaean rulers would donate their wealth to support the creation of new artistic works."
* The Yamag is elected by a Council of Apostles in the same manner as Catholic cardinals
* The Yamag may be vassalized by a more powerful Manichean ruler even if they are landed
* Mandaean faith is added as Manichaean heresy: functionally, it is the same as Manichaean in all gameplay aspects, but they don't have a religious head title.

In other forum proposals, following features were suggested:
- Rather than being part of the Mazdan religious group, Manichaean faith should be part of the Gnostic religious group
- Manichaean could have reduced opinion penalty with Paulicians, Bogomilists and Cathars, considering that they are all considered gnostic religions
- Other possible choices for a Manichaean heresy could be Denawar/Dinavarya, Mandaean, Elkasite/Ebonite, Bardaisanism, Sabian, Albanenses, Astati, Priscillian, and possibly Sethian, Valentinian, Simonian, Archontics, etc.
- Alternatively, like the eastern religions, Manichaean religion might not necessarily need heresies
- A replacement heresy for Manichaean in Zoroastrianism could be Khurramite/Khorrami, Behafaridite, Zurvanite, Ustadh Sis, Mithraism, and/or Yarsanism.
- +1 bonus to Learning
- Special education events, including reading picture books
- Manicheans can gain boons from their religious brethren in China, until the Tang Emperor destroys the Manichean community in China

There's probably plenty of other stuff which could be added to Manichaeanism, if people were to do really thorough research into the religion, never mind all of the other suggestions and mods to Manichaeanism that I wasn't able to dig up within an hour, but here's some food for thought and material for further discussion.

Considering how Manichaeism is very much an ascetic religion and how Buddhism was one of the main influences on the religion alongside Christianity and Zoroastrianism, it would also make sense to give Manicheans access to the ambitions to remove vices that Buddhists get.

 

[Karlington]

I don't mean to be a party pooper, but this is a sun cross. Here in Sweden (where Paradox is based) it is commonly used by Nazi organizations, and displaying it in public is a criminal offense. I don't think it has much chance of being added to the game.

 

[CatilinamSum]

I don't mean to be a party pooper, but this is a sun cross. Here in Sweden (where Paradox is based) it is commonly used by Nazi organizations, and displaying it in public is a criminal offense. I don't think it has much chance of being added to the game.

Hmm, that's too bad. I did not know that. Still, I think the first two symbols I proposed look better anyway.

 

[Me_]

I don't mean to be a party pooper, but this is a sun cross. Here in Sweden (where Paradox is based) it is commonly used by Nazi organizations, and displaying it in public is a criminal offense. I don't think it has much chance of being added to the game.

Funny that it was the symbol shown when societies were first teased. Migth explain why it was not used in the end.

It is worth noting, though that it is happily used by the Jomsvikings in both CK2 and EU4, so the idea that it cannot be used is wrong.

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Holy_orders#/media/File:D_jomsvikings.png
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Jomsvikings