The (un)Official Justice for Manichaeism Petition Thread

[CatilinamSum]

* Mandaean faith is added as Manichaean heresy: functionally, it is the same as Manichaean in all gameplay aspects, but they don't have a religious head title.

I've seen this proposal floating around and I can't say I care for it. Making Mandaeism a heresy of Manichaeism has the same problems as making Manichaeism a heresy of Zoroastrianism: the two movements weren't affiliated in that way.

Once again, I think it'd be neat if Manichaeism had the lack of heresies seen in eastern religions. Since they don't get GHWs, it isn't OP. We wouldn't need to worry about giving Zoroastrianism a new heresy, either, since as of Jade Dragon it now has both Mazdaki and Khurmazta.

 

[moscal]

Name an appropriate heresy for Manichaeism. (Or more than one, if at all possible.)

Mandaeism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

How should this heresy be mechanically different to Manichaeism?

Can restore Third Temple
Free "Sympathy to Judaism" by decision
Can spawn by "secret society" in Iraq region, if not any playable character have "Mandeism"
Zodiacs and horoscopes are normal enable
Cannoit have "hunt" focus/decisions (like a Jains)

 

[neutrondecay]

Mandaeism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism


Can restore Third Temple
Free "Sympathy to Judaism" by decision
Can spawn by "secret society" in Iraq region, if not any playable character have "Mandeism"
Zodiacs and horoscopes are normal enable
Cannoit have "hunt" focus/decisions (like a Jains)

Why would they be able to restore the Temple? I didn't think they had any interest in Temple Judaism.

nd

 

[moscal]

Why would they be able to restore the Temple? I didn't think they had any interest in Temple Judaism.

In normal game "Jerusalem Temple" is enable for whole jewish religious group, even for "non-orthodoxy judaism", where Temple Judaism isn't too important. So also "manichean heresy more based on judaism" should have connection with jewish "Jerusalem Temple". As super-important place of cult.

And for fun. We haven't too great infos about mandeism in medieval times and ""What are their plans when they will be winners", therefore we can have more open doors.

Also this will be good point as method "creation own RH"

 

[Damarrocarion]

Considering how Manichaeism is very much an ascetic religion and how Buddhism was one of the main influences on the religion alongside Christianity and Zoroastrianism, it would also make sense to give Manicheans access to the ambitions to remove vices that Buddhists get.

Pretty much this and religion would be done (aside from making it seperate religion) in my opinion.

 

[Karlington]

Funny that it was the symbol shown when societies were first teased. Migth explain why it was not used in the end.

It is worth noting, though that it is happily used by the Jomsvikings in both CK2 and EU4, so the idea that it cannot be used is wrong.

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Holy_orders#/media/File:D_jomsvikings.png
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Jomsvikings

a) I never said it can't be used. I said that displaying it publicly in Sweden is a criminal offense.
b) That cross is modified. I don't know what effect that has on its legal status.

If anyone doubts the legal aspect I mentioned they are free to verify it by checking the case where The Supreme Court of Sweden determined that it is illegal to publicly display. The case is NJA 1996 s. 577

Whether the laws are different for computer games versus public displays I do not know. If I were making computer games I certainly wouldn't put a symbol that is illegal to publicly display into it and sell it on the market, but presumably a large company like Paradox has access to qualified legal advice that can give them a more definitive answer on where the boundaries of the law lie.

 

[Me_]

a) I never said it can't be used. I said that displaying it publicly in Sweden is a criminal offense.
b) That cross is modified. I don't know what effect that has on its legal status.

If anyone doubts the legal aspect I mentioned they are free to verify it by checking the case where The Supreme Court of Sweden determined that it is illegal to publicly display. The case is NJA 1996 s. 577

Whether the laws are different for computer games versus public displays I do not know. If I were making computer games I certainly wouldn't put a symbol that is illegal to publicly display into it and sell it on the market, but presumably a large company like Paradox has access to qualified legal advice that can give them a more definitive answer on where the boundaries of the law lie.

Seems like trivia. Something for Paradox to figure out, not the fans.

 

[Karlington]

Seems like trivia. Something for Paradox to figure out, not the fans.

I have no idea what you mean by "trivia," though I agree that of course it's for Paradox to figure out. I'm just adding input to the conversation, that's all.

 

[QuinnMallory]

I support this idea. I'm not sure what more could be said.
In-game Manichaeism already has enough features to work perfectly fine as a separate religion.
The only thing missing is a heresy for it and a blessing from the Devs.

What would the heresy be though?
Makes me think of something about the heresies in-game: those are only the ones that were successful enough for us to know about. For every Lollardy or Catharism, there were probably ten monks or minor nobles who took issue with some aspect of doctrine but died, or were killed, or were convinced of the error of their ways (with pointy metal objects or otherwise) before they could spread their beliefs around, but who given the chance could have done so. Maybe the game should reflect that instead of having just a small set of heresies that can pop up centuries from when they did historically: a procedural/dynamic heresy generation system.

 

[Me_]

What would the heresy be though?
Makes me think of something about the heresies in-game: those are only the ones that were successful enough for us to know about. For every Lollardy or Catharism, there were probably ten monks or minor nobles who took issue with some aspect of doctrine but died, or were killed, or were convinced of the error of their ways (with pointy metal objects or otherwise) before they could spread their beliefs around, but who given the chance could have done so. Maybe the game should reflect that instead of having just a small set of heresies that can pop up centuries from when they did historically: a procedural/dynamic heresy generation system.

An old idea and one that would make sense to be added. Maybe if there will be another DLC the Devs will consider dynamic heresies.

 

[CatilinamSum]

Pretty much this and religion would be done (aside from making it seperate religion) in my opinion.

They could also add heir designation - but that might be too much, given all the other powerful features.

 

[BeyondExpectation]

They could also add heir designation - but that might be too much, given all the other powerful features.

To risk going off topic, heir designation is ahistorically powerful. As designation is much easier to fake than birth order, in most places where it existed, war of successions would frequently break out in clusters. What the game needs is the prestige penalty for unlanded sons to be crippling, so players are coerced into acting historically.

 

[Me_]

I would suggest adding the "Seal of Mani" as a Manichaean artifact. It's the only Manichaean artifact from the times of Mani himself.
https://www.academia.edu/28633056/_The_Crystal_Seal_of_Mani_the_Apostle_of_Jesus_Christ_in_the_Bibliothèque_nationale_de_France_in_N._A._Pedersen_and_J.M._Larsen_Manichaean_Texts_in_Syriac._Corpus_Fontium_Manichaeorum_Series_Syrica_Turhout_Brepols_Publishers_2013_245-267_Plates_16-23
The seal itself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_..._busts_of_three_Elects_and_an_inscription.jpg

 

[CatilinamSum]

To risk going off topic, heir designation is ahistorically powerful. As designation is much easier to fake than birth order, in most places where it existed, war of successions would frequently break out in clusters. What the game needs is the prestige penalty for unlanded sons to be crippling, so players are coerced into acting historically.

Mmm, I really like this idea for heir designation in general. They could add an event by which an unlanded brother proclaims that he was the real designated heir, and shows up with his own host to take the throne.

I would suggest adding the "Seal of Mani" as a Manichaean artifact. It's the only Manichaean artifact from the times of Mani himself.
https://www.academia.edu/28633056/_The_Crystal_Seal_of_Mani_the_Apostle_of_Jesus_Christ_in_the_Bibliothèque_nationale_de_France_in_N._A._Pedersen_and_J.M._Larsen_Manichaean_Texts_in_Syriac._Corpus_Fontium_Manichaeorum_Series_Syrica_Turhout_Brepols_Publishers_2013_245-267_Plates_16-23
The seal itself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_..._busts_of_three_Elects_and_an_inscription.jpg

On top of this, they could also add some Manichean holy texts, like the famous Book of Giants: a bit of ancient apocrypha that seems to have originated in the Jewish tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Giants

 

[spendabuck]

They could also add heir designation - but that might be too much, given all the other powerful features.

I agree with you, however there is an argument to be made that it would be fine to make Manichaeism a more powerful mechanically due to not being very powerful politically outside of the steppes. It's kind of the same idea behind Paradox giving the Aztec and Hellenic faiths really powerful reformation doctrines. While it wouldn't be as hard to bring Manichaeism to prominence, the fact that it's not nearly as powerful as many other religions means there could be some bonuses for it.

 

[Aquamancer]

So, to compile all features that have been proposed on this thread so far, Manichaeism could have:

* A heresy, such as Mandaeism, or no heresies to worry at all like Eastern religions
* An "electi" character trait for high-learning, chaste and temperate characters which grants an opinion boost with other Manichaeans and add extra learning and piety at the expense of fertility and malnourished/health boost
- Alternatively, access to a monastic order
* Unique mechanics which allow Manichaeans to spread Gnostic heresies among Christians
* Access to the ambitions to remove vices, akin to Buddhism
* Access to heir designation
* Access to Manichaean-exclusive artifacts "Seal of Mani" and "The Book of Giants"
* Any of these features:

* Manichaean armies receive +30% morale and +30% defensive bonus when fighting in their home territory.
* Upon adulthood, Manichaeans may choose one of the five Shekinah via decision
- Haunâ/Reason (+1 Learning, -1 Intrigue)
- Madde'â/Mind (+1 Martial, -1 Stewardship)
- Reyana/Intelligence (+1 Intrigue, -1 Diplomacy)
- Tar'îtâ/Understanding (+1 Diplomacy, -1 Martial)
- Mahíabtâ/Thought (+1 Stewarship, -1 Learning)
* Manichaeans have access to a special Patronize Art decision, giving +0.2 monthly prestige & karma at the expence of some gold upfront and -5% demesne tax.
- "Religious artwork is important to the Manichaean faith. Mani himself was known as "the Artist", and Manichaean rulers would donate their wealth to support the creation of new artistic works."
* The Yamag is elected by a Council of Apostles in the same manner as Catholic cardinals
* The Yamag may be vassalized by a more powerful Manichean ruler even if they are landed
* Mandaean faith is added as Manichaean heresy: functionally, it is the same as Manichaean in all gameplay aspects, but they don't have a religious head title.

In other forum proposals, following features were suggested:
- Rather than being part of the Mazdan religious group, Manichaean faith should be part of the Gnostic religious group
- Manichaean could have reduced opinion penalty with Paulicians, Bogomilists and Cathars, considering that they are all considered gnostic religions
- Other possible choices for a Manichaean heresy could be Denawar/Dinavarya, Mandaean, Elkasite/Ebonite, Bardaisanism, Sabian, Albanenses, Astati, Priscillian, and possibly Sethian, Valentinian, Simonian, Archontics, etc.
- Alternatively, like the eastern religions, Manichaean religion might not necessarily need heresies
- A replacement heresy for Manichaean in Zoroastrianism could be Khurramite/Khorrami, Behafaridite, Zurvanite, Ustadh Sis, Mithraism, and/or Yarsanism.
- +1 bonus to Learning
- Special education events, including reading picture books
- Manicheans can gain boons from their religious brethren in China, until the Tang Emperor destroys the Manichean community in China

 

[LumberKing]

I've seen this proposal floating around and I can't say I care for it. Making Mandaeism a heresy of Manichaeism has the same problems as making Manichaeism a heresy of Zoroastrianism: the two movements weren't affiliated in that way.

Once again, I think it'd be neat if Manichaeism had the lack of heresies seen in eastern religions. Since they don't get GHWs, it isn't OP. We wouldn't need to worry about giving Zoroastrianism a new heresy, either, since as of Jade Dragon it now has both Mazdaki and Khurmazta.

There are some relations according to this diagram:

 

[CatilinamSum]

* An "electi" character trait for high-learning, chaste and temperate characters which grants an opinion boost with other Manichaeans and add extra learning and piety at the expense of fertility and malnourished/health boost
- Alternatively, access to a monastic order

I'm really big on the monastic order, and I think that Judaism + Islam + Zoros ought to have their own monastic orders as well. The max rank conversion power is really important when you're playing a religion away from its holy sites because it lets you prevent the spread of heresy. Considering that there are pockets of Manichaeism all over the place, giving it this same ability makes sense.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I'm really big on the monastic order, and I think that Judaism + Islam + Zoros ought to have their own monastic orders as well. The max rank conversion power is really important when you're playing a religion away from its holy sites because it lets you prevent the spread of heresy. Considering that there are pockets of Manichaeism all over the place, giving it this same ability makes sense.

I think the issue is that Societies require more than just localization so copying existing Monastic order would not work in it self. If Manicheans get access to Buddhist order, then it might just work with just localization changes.

 

[manager2525]

Just a thought, since Manichaism had fusion elements of Christianity and Jewish faiths i believe that at least some of the holy artifacts for the two mentioned religions should be usuable for Manicheans as well. Meaning probably not a finger of a saint but probably yes to the Shroud of Jesus. Maybe also some Buddist ones (i am not too sure about the last).

As for the part of the heresy i tend to think that a heresy should be added to avoid making the religion too powerfull. Mandaeism is not a branch of the Manichaism but they still share common points (gnostic religions - close geographical proximity etc). Also, to the best of my knowledge, there is no affiliation between Nestorians and Massilians still they are parent religion and heresy (in game). So Mandaeism could be a candidate but we still need to give it some flavour.