Polish border adjusments

[myzael]

The changelog claims that the borders were adjusted to make 1914 border possible:

- Edits to Lodz, Poznan, and Danzig states to make historical WW1 German borders possible.

Compare the administrative division of the Republic of Poland in 1930 (chosen over the one after later administrative reform as it is exactly based on the 1914 German borders):

Compare the screenshot:

The issue with southernmost province of Poznań/Posen state being in Łódź was indeed fixed, but there are other ones that, while not exactly game breaking, are definitely immersion breaking:

1. Southeastern part of Polish Pomorskie Voivodship (marked in blue in the first map) should also be a part of in-game Danzig state and thus transfered to Germany
2. There is no state representing the Polish part of Upper Silesia, awarded after Silesian Wars and plebiscites of the twenties (marked green in the first map, excluding Bielsko and Cieszyn provinces).

Please let Kaiser fans restore the proper borders, not some approximation of them. Ordnung muss sein @Archangel85

 

[Archangel85]

While Ordnung muss indeed sein, this one is @Bratyn 's baby.

 

[myzael]

Okay, I will wait for his response.

Ordnung muss indeed sein

Btw, mixing German and English in one sentence? That is not kosher.

 

[Dr3adn0ught81]

That this is still not fixed is really sad and also a bit ridiculous. Did you guys even take a look at historical maps before shaping the states in HOI4? Also there is no state to make it possible to reclaim Eupen-Malmedy. Same at the northern border for the northern part of Slesvig that belonged to Denmark after a plebiscite in the aftermath of WWI.

You made it possible to bring back the German Empire and failed pitiless to provide correct borders for this.

Just look at some maps and reorder the provinces in the states. Why is it that this has to be modded by the player himself?

 

[Chocolatnave]

That this is still not fixed is really sad and also a bit ridiculous. Did you guys even take a look at historical maps before shaping the states in HOI4? Also there is no state to make it possible to reclaim Eupen-Malmedy. Same at the northern border for the northern part of Slesvig that belonged to Denmark after a plebiscite in the aftermath of WWI.

You made it possible to bring back the German Empire and failed pitiless to provide correct borders for this.

Just look at some maps and reorder the provinces in the states. Why is it that this has to be modded by the player himself?

Does anyone really care? Poland gets annexed before WWII even begins in earnest. All these small changes will be part of Germany anyways.

 

[Dr3adn0ught81]

Does anyone really care? Poland gets annexed before WWII even begins in earnest. All these small changes will be part of Germany anyways.

Because you can claim the polish territories for guarantees and not attack Poland it would be nice if the borders are correct in this case. I believe that indeed most of the people do not care. The fact, however, that at paradox obviously no one cares about doing this right is just a bit annoying imo.

 

[Eustreptospondy]

Noticed the same issue as OP. I've also noted, that you cannot reclaim the territory lost to Denmark or Belgium either. Plus I'm slightly upset, that former German territory (as of the 1914 borders) is designated as colony state, when taken back by Germany (I've not completed all Imperial German decisions yet, so if they are later designated as core states, then please correct me on this).

 

[myzael]

Plus I'm slightly upset, that former German territory (as of the 1914 borders) is designated as colony state, when taken back by Germany (I've not completed all Imperial German decisions yet, so if they are later designated as core states, then please correct me on this).

When you get them on the Kaiser path you do get cores (at least in one of the events, I just fired it from the console.

I've also noted, that you cannot reclaim the territory lost to Denmark or Belgium either.

That's irrelevant as long as there is no new content related to reclaiming those territories. There is one regarding the Polish Partition ones so let's keep this thread focused on them. By all means create a separate for Danish or Belgian lost territories (even though I think they are quite insignificant in context of WW2, neither of them had any strategic value).

Does anyone really care? Poland gets annexed before WWII even begins in earnest. All these small changes will be part of Germany anyways.

By that logic, Czechoslovakia should get half of a NF tree, and there should be focuses regarding capitulation in the German tree. That's not a very sound logic, to put it mildly.

The fact, however, that at paradox obviously no one cares about doing this right is just a bit annoying imo.

There is a PDX dev's post, literally 4 posts above yours, stating that they will look into it. They definitely do not care. At all.

 

[Bratyn]

Please let Kaiser fans restore the proper borders, not some approximation of them.

I'll look into it! Polish borders should be possible to adjust at least around the Danzig area (and I'll do my best in Silesia). Adjusting the shape of provinces is much more work than simply re-assigning them, so that is why that was not done.

That this is still not fixed is really sad and also a bit ridiculous. Did you guys even take a look at historical maps before shaping the states in HOI4? Also there is no state to make it possible to reclaim Eupen-Malmedy. Same at the northern border for the northern part of Slesvig that belonged to Denmark after a plebiscite in the aftermath of WWI.

You made it possible to bring back the German Empire and failed pitiless to provide correct borders for this.

Just look at some maps and reorder the provinces in the states. Why is it that this has to be modded by the player himself?

Perhaps you would have preferred Assassinate Mussolini not actually assassinating Mussolini. Or Britain kicking you out of the Allies within 3 months even if you pick "An Alliance with the Shade" to join their alliance. Or "Rekindle Imperial Sentiment" not actually causing the AI to form Austria-Hungary. Or Poland not giving Danzig at all, even in return for guarantees. Or "Our Place in the Sun" asking China to return Qingdao even if it's currently controlled by Japan.

The time we require to look at maps and then to adjust province shapes to fix these borders better than we already did would have come out of any of those bugfixes during development. I urge you to pick any of them you would have rather had in the game instead of 2 provinces being wrongly-allocated and/or -shaped.

As for Eupen-Malmedy, I can tell you that will never be added as a separate state; it is simply too small to be represented on the HOI4 map at its current scale.

 

[myzael]

I'll look into it! Polish borders should be possible to adjust at least around the Danzig area (and I'll do my best in Silesia). Adjusting the shape of provinces is much more work than simply re-assigning them, so that is why that was not done.

Thanks man! Polish Silesia would ideally be a separate state (we also have 2 Polish national focuses that relate to it that would need adjustment, too). Much of Polish industry (civ factories and steel in current game terms) was located there.

I'd be happy to provide more suggestions regarding the general region of Central Europe, feel free to ping me.

 

[gianlucad]

Paradox should also modify these states so its possible to create the modern polish borders at the Oder-Neisse line.

 

[Dr3adn0ught81]

I'll look into it! Polish borders should be possible to adjust at least around the Danzig area (and I'll do my best in Silesia). Adjusting the shape of provinces is much more work than simply re-assigning them, so that is why that was not done.

Thank you for looking into it! Much appreciated.

Perhaps you would have preferred Assassinate Mussolini not actually assassinating Mussolini. Or Britain kicking you out of the Allies within 3 months even if you pick "An Alliance with the Shade" to join their alliance. Or "Rekindle Imperial Sentiment" not actually causing the AI to form Austria-Hungary. Or Poland not giving Danzig at all, even in return for guarantees. Or "Our Place in the Sun" asking China to return Qingdao even if it's currently controlled by Japan.

The time we require to look at maps and then to adjust province shapes to fix these borders better than we already did would have come out of any of those bugfixes during development. I urge you to pick any of them you would have rather had in the game instead of 2 provinces being wrongly-allocated and/or -shaped.

Don't really get your point. You want to say doing the following is keeping you away from doing other (more important) stuff:

- Province 243 to State 85 (Danzig)
- Provinces 506 and 6464 to a new state (Upper Silesia or whatever)
- fix the strategic regions, supply areas and buildings, rocketsites, airports and whatever
- fix the events, focus trees and whatever

I believe that you and the team have more important things to do. However, you advertised this ("Edits to Lodz, Poznan, and Danzig states to make historical WW1 German borders possible.") so as customer I could expect that this was correctly done, particularly because it is not the most complex or time-consuming action. No offense, really. But this is something people complaining about since release of the game.

As for Eupen-Malmedy, I can tell you that will never be added as a separate state; it is simply too small to be represented on the HOI4 map at its current scale.

Very sad but understandable.

 

[Daddl]

Has the event where Poland gives back Poznan and Danzig to (democratic) Germany when under attack from the Soviets always been in or is it new? I like that one.

 

[myzael]

Has the event where Poland gives back Poznan and Danzig to (democratic) Germany when under attack from the Soviets always been in or is it new? I like that one.

As historically implausible as I think it is, it is a new event.

 

[Dr3adn0ught81]

As historically implausible as I think it is, it is a new event.

With respect, it is not implausible. West Germany as legal successor of the German Empire claimed the polish areas until 1970 and only with the German Reunification 1990 these claims where abandoned according to international law.

From wiki:

The official West German government position on the status of former eastern territories of Germany east of the Oder and Neisse rivers was that the areas were "temporarily under Polish [or Soviet] administration." In 1970, West Germany recognised the line as a de facto boundary in the Treaty of Warsaw. In 1990, as part of the reunification of Germany, West Germany accepted clauses in the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany whereby Germany renounced all claims to territory east of the Oder–Neisse line. Germany's recognition of the Oder–Neisse line as the border was formalised by the re-united Germany in the German–Polish Border Treaty on November 14, 1990; and by the repeal of Article 23 of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany under which German states outside the Federal Republic could formerly apply for admission. With this repeal the post-1990 boundaries of Germany are closed to further expansion.

 

[myzael]

With respect, it is not implausible. West Germany as legal successor of the German Empire claimed the polish areas until 1970 and only with the German Reunification 1990 these claims where abandoned according to international law.

From wiki:

The official West German government position on the status of former eastern territories of Germany east of the Oder and Neisse rivers was that the areas were "temporarily under Polish [or Soviet] administration." In 1970, West Germany recognised the line as a de facto boundary in the Treaty of Warsaw. In 1990, as part of the reunification of Germany, West Germany accepted clauses in the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany whereby Germany renounced all claims to territory east of the Oder–Neisse line. Germany's recognition of the Oder–Neisse line as the border was formalised by the re-united Germany in the German–Polish Border Treaty on November 14, 1990; and by the repeal of Article 23 of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany under which German states outside the Federal Republic could formerly apply for admission. With this repeal the post-1990 boundaries of Germany are closed to further expansion.

I know they claimed it, I am just saying I find it implausible that the Polish government would have agreed to such cession. I should have been more clear in the first post.

 

[Bratyn]

You want to say doing the following is keeping you away from doing other (more important) stuff:

- Province 243 to State 85 (Danzig)
- Provinces 506 and 6464 to a new state (Upper Silesia or whatever)
- fix the strategic regions, supply areas and buildings, rocketsites, airports and whatever
- fix the events, focus trees and whatever

I believe that you and the team have more important things to do. However, you advertised this ("Edits to Lodz, Poznan, and Danzig states to make historical WW1 German borders possible.") so as customer I could expect that this was correctly done, particularly because it is not the most complex or time-consuming action. No offense, really. But this is something people complaining about since release of the game.

The current province borders make it impossible to properly represent the borders by simply switching them around, so it would likely require redrawing of province borders. Even without that, it will still take time that ultimately has to come from somewhere else. I am not saying we do not -want- to fix these things, but in the face of things that actually mechanically do not work, we valued fixing those other things above what is essentially a cosmetic issue. The bottom line is that there are -many- things to fix at any time, and in the end we have to prioritize certain things above others. There are only so many hours in a work day, and I can assure you that there is perpetually more things to do than fit in those hours. I apologize if you felt cheated out of what you expected to be a full fix - that was never our intention.

Has the event where Poland gives back Poznan and Danzig to (democratic) Germany when under attack from the Soviets always been in or is it new? I like that one.

It is new.

I know they claimed it, I am just saying I find it implausible that the Polish government would have agreed to such cession. I should have been more clear in the first post.

In the face of imminent defeat (the event does not fire unless Poland is losing), I do not think it would be inconceivable for a quick-thinking government to 'save' part of their population by quickly transferring the territory they live in to a neutral power. The Franco-British Union could be seen as a similar ploy.

 

[myzael]

The current province borders make it impossible to properly represent the borders by simply switching them around, so it would likely require redrawing of province borders. Even without that, it will still take time that ultimately has to come from somewhere else. I am not saying we do not -want- to fix these things, but in the face of things that actually mechanically do not work, we valued fixing those other things above what is essentially a cosmetic issue. The bottom line is that there are -many- things to fix at any time, and in the end we have to prioritize certain things above others. There are only so many hours in a work day, and I can assure you that there is perpetually more things to do than fit in those hours. I apologize if you felt cheated out of what you expected to be a full fix - that was never our intention.

That is totally understandable, working in IT I know how priorities work.

On the other hand, would it help if I prepared all the required modifications and uploaded them for you to review? That would minimise the implementation time.

In the face of imminent defeat (the event does not fire unless Poland is losing), I do not think it would be inconceivable for a quick-thinking government to 'save' part of their population by quickly transferring the territory they live in to a neutral power.

I understand that and I am not questioning the validity of the existence of the event in the game. It would likely be a logical move for a sane government.

Why I think it is implausible is that the Polish government was very stubborn, honor-bound and narrow minded, to the point of sacrificing tens of thousands of lives for "higher values". Not to mention innate distrust of Poles towards Germans due to previous history.

 

[Swordsman1219]

I have another Poland related problem @Bratyn, and I hope you can help me. Why is it that even with human control Poland is nothing more than a creampuff in 1.5? Like I've said before, I am a Poland player (who also occasionally dabbles in the UK just to feel powerful) In my case, no matter what I try doing I usually get rolled. Germany has too many buffs and the Polish tree even though it was "ZOMGZ! Amazing" back in the day has become stale. There is no flavour, no interest to it, there is no fight or compete to it. Yes, I admit, Poland was in the middle of a rock and a hard place in World War II, I'm not saying Poland should survive or WC. (Hell no to the WC part) but to have Germany get super buffed with the MEFO Bills (again) while they were already powerful in SP and the AI never taking the Anti-Hitler route, it leads to frustration because the game is so far imbalanced against the Allies/Poland that it is unplayable. There is no advancement to Poland possible.

 

[myzael]

I have another Poland related problem @Bratyn, and I hope you can help me. Why is it that even with human control Poland is nothing more than a creampuff in 1.5? Like I've said before, I am a Poland player (who also occasionally dabbles in the UK just to feel powerful) In my case, no matter what I try doing I usually get rolled. Germany has too many buffs and the Polish tree even though it was "ZOMGZ! Amazing" back in the day has become stale. There is no flavour, no interest to it, there is no fight or compete to it. Yes, I admit, Poland was in the middle of a rock and a hard place in World War II, I'm not saying Poland should survive or WC. (Hell no to the WC part) but to have Germany get super buffed with the MEFO Bills (again) while they were already powerful in SP and the AI never taking the Anti-Hitler route, it leads to frustration because the game is so far imbalanced against the Allies/Poland that it is unplayable. There is no advancement to Poland possible.

That is out of the scope of this thread. Please discuss it elsewhere.