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Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 21st of February 2023 - Spain

¡Hola a todo el mundo, y bienvenidos! In this week’s Development Diary, we will be talking about the content that we have created for Spain and the different Iberian countries, mainly Castile and Aragon, as they are the top runners for its formation.

First of all, for the redesign of Spain’s content for the upcoming DLC, we took a bit different approach than other countries that have been shown in the previous weeks, following this line of thoughts:
- We thought that its mission trees did not need a major overhaul, as it was already quite developed in Golden Century, covering most of the Conquest & Colonization paths required as Spain; therefore, we aimed to redesign its structure, adding a few missions here and there to get some extra flavor, and to rework triggers and rewards, to update them in line with the other Great Powers.
- We also decided to put more effort into adding more ‘mechanical content’ instead.
- On top of that, we also decided to add more unique content, linked to new game mechanics, but also to older ones, such as adding new Holy Orders for Golden Century owners, in order to keep adding more depth to the game as a whole.
- I tried to add some not-so-known chunks of Spanish History to the content, because, you know, I have a previous background as Historian!

That said, let’s get started with the new content for Castile! When we started designing it, we decided that nothing could be more iconic that adding another civil war disaster:

1. Disaster Infantes.jpg

Note: Effects and numbers are not final, as usual.

The Infantes of Aragon were the sons of Fernando/Ferrán I, the first king of the Trastámara dynasty in Aragon, and therefore cousins of Juan II, king of Castile; his first wife, María de Aragón, was their sister. Early in the reign of Juan II, they tried to puppet the king, and seize power, leaning on their large properties in the country, and the support they had from a big sector of the Castilian Nobility. This is also portrayed by a new starting privilege for Castile’s Nobility, which will cause the following disaster to progress:

2. Factionalist Nobility.jpg

3. Disaster progress.jpg

A cursed start for Castile, I know, I know.
What will happen after the disaster fires is that this event will be triggered, giving two different choices to the player:

4. Infantes event 1.jpg

5. Infantes event 2.jpg

6. Infantes event 2.jpg

The disaster will now be possible to be ended, and as you may have noticed, it will impact the outcome of a new mission:

7. Disaster ending.jpg

8. Infantes mission.jpg

The first path will reduce the effects of the Factionalist Nobility, making it easier to get rid of it earlier, apart from giving a temporary boost to Juan II, but also comes with a bunch of rebels. The second decision means that the ‘Factionalist Nobility’ will be empowered, fewer rebels will appear, and it will give Castile early ‘Restoration of Union’ Casus Belli on Aragon and Navarra, as it means the supremacy of the same line of the Trastámara dynasty over all the three countries. But, on top of that, the event ‘Isabella of Castile’ won’t be triggered if you decide to back the Infantes in their fight against the king, thus making it more difficult to have ‘The Iberian Wedding’ event, and the peaceful unification of Spain. It’s up to the player to decide which path to follow, with its own trade-offs: Back the king and face the Nobility early on, or side with the Infantes, and aim for an early military push to form Spain.

Although the start of Castile will be troublesome, as there will still be the possibility of the 'Castillian Civil War' trigger, we wanted to make it rewarding to get out of it in any of the ways decided, and we also made a minor change in order that early game is a bit more bearable:

9. Enrique 0.jpg

Enrique IV ‘the 0/0/0’ is nevermore a 0/0/0!

Now let’s move on to see what the new mission tree for Castile and then Spain looks like:

10. CAS-SPA tree.png

Note: As usual, the design and art of the tree are not final.

You may have noticed a big change in the redesign, as we decided to leave the upper half of the tree as the Conquest & Government part of it, while the lower half will be for Trade & Colonization. There is a reason for this, which you will see later on the DD. For now, let’s discuss the most important changes for the Castile path to Spain.

The right-most part of the tree is designed around a new set of missions covering the evolution of the Modern State in Spain in the late 15th and early 16th centuries. The first one is about the final appeasement of the Castilian Nobility:

11. Reinforce Royal Authority.jpg

12. Reinforce Royal Authority 2.jpg

This leads to ‘Law and Order’, which will give nice flavor bonuses to the provinces of Valladolid and Granada until the end of the game, being the seats of the two main courts of justice in the country, the ‘Reales Chancillerías’:

13. Chancillerías 1.jpg

14. Chancillerías 2.jpg

Related to these, although not connected to them, we have another set of 3 missions down in the mission tree that is about the Government of the Spanish Empire:

15. Government.jpg

The first one will trigger the following event after completion:

16. Spanish Dollar.jpg

The second is directly linked to the construction of the ‘El Escorial’ monument. Meanwhile, the third one will lead to a new mechanic we are implementing for Spain, the ‘System of Councils’, (based upon the historical Polysynodial System) which will be unlocked by a Government Reform of the same name:

17. System of Councils mission.jpg

18. System of Councils reform.jpg

How is this mechanic working? It will open a new 0-100 progress bar, the ‘Council Consensus’, which will be slowly refilled depending on your Monthly Average Autonomy and Monthly Average Liberty Desire of your subjects. Numbers are still WIP, but our initial design is to make it so that the bar can be filled at 10 years the fastest, while not progressing at all if Monthly Average Autonomy and Monthly Average Liberty Desire are 100%:

19. System of Councils bar max.png

Note: Ruler ability modifiers are placeholder ones to make the mechanic appear in the game, there is still some code support needed to make it fully work with the ‘Monthly Average Autonomy’ and ‘Monthly Average Liberty Desire’ that I’ve mentioned. Also, take into account that the other numbers are also WIP.
The ‘Council Consensus’ will give an increasing escalating effect, giving you Monthly Splendor and Administrative Efficiency, but that’s not its only benefit, as when you reach 100 ‘Council Consensus’, you may be able of spending that amount in one of the three Government Actions, tied to each of the monarch powers. After clicking the button, you will get +1 monarch power of the chosen type for 10 years, and an event similar to the Estate Agendas will trigger, upon which you might be able to pick one of the Councils of that branch to support for 10 years, getting an additional modifier for that period.

20. system_councils_button_1.png

21. system_councils_button_2.png

22. system_councils_button_3.png

23. system_councils_event_example.png

24. System of Councils UI.png

Note: UI is WIP, but in the last pic you’ve got the current design of the new buttons, for the ‘Royal Council’, the ‘Council of State’, and the ‘Council of War’, respectively.

So, coming back to the new mission trees, let’s go to the leftmost part of it. We have moved there the already existing missions for the Spanish Armada and Invade England, but we have added 3 more there, making it the ‘Military Branch’ of the mission tree:

25. Military missions.png

The first mission, ‘Armies of Iberia’, will unlock the Navy and Army paths of the branch. But the meaty new content is on the Land part, to be honest, as we have created a new government reform for the Spanish Tercios:

26. armies_iberia_mission.png

27. assemble_tercios_mission.png

Which is, obviously, a new type of Land Special Unit!

28. tercios_basic.png

Note: Grey color is provisional.

This unit might be recruited from provinces of the Iberian culture group, and their availability will be increased by the Army Tradition that Spain has at the moment. So, that means that you will be able to recruit double the amount of Tercios if your Army Tradition is 100. About its combat performance, these units will have at the start the same modifier as Spain’s Tercios Age bonus, -30% Shock Damage Received (therefore, that means that we will change Spain’s Age bonus, although it is not yet decided, as we want to wait for a bit more to get results from our internal tests to give a proper new modifier).

But wait, this is not the end of the (Spanish) road! There is another mission, ‘Refine the Tercios’, which will allow you to modernize your Tercios units if you have a fixed number of Tercios (right now is 60, but this may change), and either 75% Army Professionalism or 90 Army Tradition, giving them the following effects on top until the end of the game, allowing Spain to extend the dominance of Tercios on the battlefields for a longer period than historically:

29. refine_tercios_mission.png

Note: Again, numbers are provisional, and might be changed.

This fits for us with the expanded Conquest missions of the tree:

30. rein_france_mission.png

‘Rein in France’ can be completed either by defeating or by allying with France, giving permanent Power Projection as a modifier.

31. Spanish Road.jpg

32. spanish_netherlands_mission.png

‘The Spanish Road’ aims to connect your dominions in Italy with the rich (and maybe cursed) Netherlands, which will now grant a big reward if completed.

33. Italy and Austria.jpg

34. fecho_imperio_mission.png

We have also reworked a bit the ‘Austrian branch’ flow and links and added a stronger reward for completing it (again, numbers are not final).

35. universal_monarchy_prerequisites2_mission.png

36. universal_monarchy_mission.png

If you manage to complete all the different branches of Conquest & Government, you will unlock a ‘finishing mission’ for Spain, giving a reward to your now Universal Empire.

OK, now we’re done with the Hegemonic Ambitions of Spain, so let’s move to the lower part of its mission tree, devoted to Trade & Colonization. The first redesign we made covers the commercial expansion and the new maritime routes that were established at the Age of Discovery. By completing it you will get some nice commercial bonuses, but most importantly, you will unlock two new types of ships:

37. Screenshot 2023-02-20 144559.jpg

38. reales_atarazanas.png

Here you have a new feature that we are adding to the upcoming DLC: Naval Special Units! A few countries will get them, on top of the 3 new special units that we have already presented (Samurai, Musketeers, and Tercios). And these are the Caravels and Galleons that are mentioned here:

39. caravel_ship_stats.png

40. galleon_ship_stats.png

After completing the ‘Reales Atarazanas’ mission, you will be able to recruit as much as 10% of your Naval Force Limit as this type of special ship (again, numbers are provisional).

This will help you with the Exploration branch, which we have not touched much, as it was already quite well developed. As you may have noticed, we have redesigned a bit the position and flow of the different missions, added a few different triggers and rewards here and there, and made a final mission after finishing the conquest of both México and Perú:

41. silver_trade.png

Here I’ve got to say that we have not added more content to the Colonial Nations and America. To be honest with you, it’s in our backlog, but it fell outside of the scope of the upcoming DLC, so this will have to wait for a future moment. What we are adding, on the other hand, is more types of Holy Orders, which will be part of the free update for the Golden Century DLC owners, and which will be the following ones (this list includes the 3 older ones, Jesuits, Dominicans, and Franciscans):

Monastic Orders (ADM)
  • Benedictines
    • -1 Local Unrest
    • +10% Trade Goods Size Modifier
  • Carthusians
    • -10% Local Construction Cost
    • -10% Local State Maintenance Modifier
  • Hieronymites
    • +10% Local Tax Modifier
    • -10% Local Governing Cost
  • Jesuits
    • +1% Local Missionary Strength
    • +10% Local Production Efficiency
Mendicant Orders (DIP)
  • Augustinians
    • +1 Institution Growth
    • -10% Local Missionary Maintenance Cost
  • Carmelites
    • +20% Local Religious Conversion Resistance
    • +20% Local Religious Unity Contribution
  • Dominicans
    • +1.5% Local Missionary Strength
    • +10% Local Institution Spread
  • Franciscans
    • -1 Local Unrest
    • -0.05 Monthly Devastation

Military Orders (MIL)
  • Order of Calatrava (CAS/NAV)
    • +10% Local Defensiveness
  • Order of Avis (POR)
    • +25% Local Sailors
  • Order of Montesa (ARA)
    • +25% Local Garrison Size
  • Order of Alcántara (LEO/AST)
    • -10% Local Fort Maintenance Modifier
    • -25% Local Construction Time
  • Order of Santiago
    • +5% Local Manpower
  • Order of San Juan
    • Blocks Slave Raids
    • -0.25 Local Monthly Devastation
42. Holy Orders tease.png

A sneak peek of the new WIP art of the Holy Orders!​

Let’s now move to Aragon! This country has received an update over its former mission tree, aiming at improving its game flow, but also to make it work with the Spanish one:

43. ARAtree.png

First and foremost, the mission ‘Intervene in Castile’ is new, giving the player different options for completing it:

44. Screenshot 2023-02-20 151600.jpg

45. intervene_in_castile_aragon.png

But to achieve dominance over Iberia, you will have to tackle first your internal problems, mainly the inflight between the Remença Peasants and the Catalan Nobility that was ongoing in the middle of the 15th century. You will have to wait for the ‘Sindicat Remença’ event to trigger, which has been reworked, giving an extra option that leads to turning Aragon into a Peasant Republic:

46. sindicat_remenca_event_peasant_option_aragon.png

This will open up the option of resolving ‘The War of the Remences’ mission, which will also allow you to deal with the Catalan Nobility, with different starting conditions depending on what you picked in the ‘Sindicat Remença’ event:

47. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152324.jpg

48. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152359.jpg

Afterward, you will be able to focus on the Conquest and Expansion branches of the mission tree:

49. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152611.jpg


‘Crowns of Iberia’ will give you the ‘Hegemon of Iberia’ modifier until the end of the game.
50. crowns_of_iberia_mission_aragon.png


‘Consulate of the Sea’ mission and event have been reworked, opening up a new government reform:
49. consulate_sea_mission_aragon.png

50. consulate_sea_event_aragon.png


‘Mediterranean Ambitions’ now unlock the expansion into the Eastern Mediterranean:
53.med_ambitions_aragon_mission.png


Some of the reworked rewards of the mission tree:
54. combat_barbary_piracy_mission_aragon.png

55. occupy_alexandria_mission_ara.png

56. industrial_districts_mission_aragon.png

57. golden_century_mission_aragon.png

And, finally, if you manage to form Spain as Aragon, what will happen is that you will keep the Aragonese mission tree, AND you will get the Trade & Colonization branch on the lower half, making for a different mission tree than that of a ‘Castilian’ Spain:

58. ARASPAtree.png

Finally, we made a limited rework to the Spanish Ideas, to make it work a bit better with all the other content:

  • Buffed Spanish Naval Doctrine
    • Move the 'A Spanish Armada' Idea modifiers to the Naval Doctrine
  • Ideas
    • Changed 'Devout Catholicism' name to 'Devout Christianism'
      • Added Church Power and Fervor in case of being Protestant or Reformed
    • 'Treasure Fleet' replaced by the Castilian Idea 'School of Salamanca'
      • Added +10% Reform Progress Growth (also to Castilian Idea)
    • 'A Spanish Armada' now gets:
      • +25% Naval Force Limit modifier from Treasure Fleet
      • +25% Available Marines
    • Changed 'Rein in the Cortes'
      • -5 Reduced Absolutism from Privileges
    • New Idea order:
      • Devout Christianism
      • Inter Caetera
      • School of Salamanca
      • A Spanish Armada
      • Casa de Contratación
      • Siglo de Oro
      • Rein in the Cortes

60. SPA_ideas_script.png
59. SPA_ideas_game.png


And speaking of the Spanish ideas, we are currently having a debate in the team about what to do with the Artillery Fire modifier, if to keep them as they are in the different idea sets, or replace them with something else. On this topic, we would like to hear out the opinion of the community, as this might be somewhat of a controversial issue (so, please, be civic while debating it!)

And what about the other Iberian countries? We have also added new content for Portugal and Navarra! But we are going to talk about that in a couple of weeks, along with other countries which were not considered to be part of the ‘core’ of the upcoming DLC; but trust me, we’re not diminishing Portugal’s role in the Early Modern Age! In fact, this is also a good opportunity to share with us which tweaks you would want to see, as we’re right now polishing that new content. What I can show now is a sneak peek of something that the Portuguese players have been asking for a while, and that we have changed for good:

61. Screenshot 2023-02-20 155043.jpg

A wild Blue Portugal appeared! So many fado vibes <3

That’s all for today! I’ll be spending some time this week on the forums, reviewing all the feedback from this DD, and also of the previous one, so please leave your comments and thoughts on the new content! And next week, @Ogele will be showing the content for Great Britain!

62. Comic.png
 

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As I said, many Portuguese would disagree with this.
Just because of your arbitrary definition of a great power.
The km2 is pretty misleading because that doesn't mean you are a great power
Hence why it is written "global dimension"
Probably this km2 comes from counting most of brazil as colonized,
I specifically gave the 1557 date as neither Brazil nor the African territories were fully colonized. If you notice the second empire has 5.5 million square km.
Brazil by itself has around 8 million square km.
But my point is that you consider France and England great powers yet they were still fighting local conflicts while Portugal had an overseas Empire spanning the globe.
They weren't great powers at the start of the game, just like Portugal wasn't and the end of the game. Hence why I'm disputing your arbitrary definition of great power.
 
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Just because of your arbitrary definition of a great power.

Hence why it is written "global dimension"

I specifically gave the 1557 date as neither Brazil nor the African territories were fully colonized. If you notice the second empire has 5.5 million square km.
Brazil by itself has around 8 million square km.
But my point is that you consider France and England great powers yet they were still fighting local conflicts while Portugal had an overseas Empire spanning the globe.
They weren't great powers at the start of the game, just like Portugal wasn't and the end of the game. Hence why I'm disputing your arbitrary definition of great power.
please don't get angry. I don't think I was being arbitrary, here is the actual definition of great power: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/great-power .

I assume you checked the link I passed? It's weird that you referenced it with the second portugese empire, which it was the biggest, but not the first which is the one you mentioned. I wouldn't mind getting corrected on the size the wiki provides I just would like an explanation.

So, is your definition of great power having oversees land? I think that's weird and doesn't match history that well. Yes France and England do not start as great powers but end up being so, I think that outside portugal not many people think portugal was a great power unless this definition is used more loosely(which often happens tbh), but that is not what I wanted to do because then it would involve countries like the netherlands or sweden and I was trying to limit the scoope of the dlc to the historically most relevant nations of the world during this time period, and japan which wasn't one of them but is in the dlc.

I know portugal did a lot on the exploration side and were the best navigators for a while, had excellent ships, outposts everywhere around the world and influenced a lot of faraway nations. I too hope they get some love it's just that I don't think the height of their power can be compared to the spanish, french, ottomans etc. And that seems to be the focus of this dlc, also japan. So if you want me to correct it I would say instead of great powers this dlc focuses on the strongest great powers of the time period.
 
please don't get angry. I don't think I was being arbitrary, here is the actual definition of great power: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/great-power .

I assume you checked the link I passed? It's weird that you referenced it with the second portugese empire, which it was the biggest, but not the first which is the one you mentioned. I wouldn't mind getting corrected on the size the wiki provides I just would like an explanation.

So, is your definition of great power having oversees land? I think that's weird and doesn't match history that well. Yes France and England do not start as great powers but end up being so, I think that outside portugal not many people think portugal was a great power unless this definition is used more loosely(which often happens tbh), but that is not what I wanted to do because then it would involve countries like the netherlands or sweden and I was trying to limit the scoope of the dlc to the historically most relevant nations of the world during this time period, and japan which wasn't one of them but is in the dlc.

I know portugal did a lot on the exploration side and were the best navigators for a while, had excellent ships, outposts everywhere around the world and influenced a lot of faraway nations. I too hope they get some love it's just that I don't think the height of their power can be compared to the spanish, french, ottomans etc. And that seems to be the focus of this dlc, also japan. So if you want me to correct it I would say instead of great powers this dlc focuses on the strongest great powers of the time period.


Brother, I'm sorry, but you are using a wikipedia link to support your argument that the Portuguese Empire was not considered a great power during the time frame of the game.

There is a vast bibliography on the impact of the Portuguese Maritime Empire during the 15th and 17th centuries, and I will not cite Brazilian or Portuguese authors but authors from other nationalities, such as Charles Boxer (who wrote one of the best books on the history of Portugal), Roger Crowley, John Darwin, Serge Gruzinski, etc.

In fact, I think it is worth exposing that Portugal can very well fit into its definition of Great Power in geographic areas such as the Atlantic overseas (Africa and South America), India and Asia in a world that was beginning to globalize and interconnect.

Also, countries that are undeniably Great Powers, such as Russia, England and the Ottoman Empire, depending on the temporal or geographic cutout, would not be considered Great Powers by their definition.

Finally, I understand the points you raised, but unfortunately I cannot agree. And I'll go a little further, if it's for Great Power's sake, Aragon shouldn't have received the rework it did.

A hug and a great week for you.
 
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I'd like that Castille could form Spain diplomatically with Aragon with Aragon being able to have more than 40 provinces. It would also be cool if you develop a way to reorganize the territorial distribution of colonial nations, considering the fact they sometimes grow beyond their 'natural borders' or that when you integrate another country with colonies (i.e. integrate portugal as spain), the colonies in the same colonial region cannot be integrated into one. I would also like to say it does seem a bit unfair that France now has 78 missions whilst Spain only has 49, as before the disparity was smaller (43 of France vs 34 of Spain)
Did you count Aragon and Castille's ones ?
On the other hands france doesnt have new mechanics
 
Brother, I'm sorry, but you are using a wikipedia link to support your argument that the Portuguese Empire was not considered a great power during the time frame of the game.

There is a vast bibliography on the impact of the Portuguese Maritime Empire during the 15th and 17th centuries, and I will not cite Brazilian or Portuguese authors but authors from other nationalities, such as Charles Boxer (who wrote one of the best books on the history of Portugal), Roger Crowley, John Darwin, Serge Gruzinski, etc.

In fact, I think it is worth exposing that Portugal can very well fit into its definition of Great Power in geographic areas such as the Atlantic overseas (Africa and South America), India and Asia in a world that was beginning to globalize and interconnect.

Also, countries that are undeniably Great Powers, such as Russia, England and the Ottoman Empire, depending on the temporal or geographic cutout, would not be considered Great Powers by their definition.

Finally, I understand the points you raised, but unfortunately I cannot agree. And I'll go a little further, if it's for Great Power's sake, Aragon shouldn't have received the rework it did.

A hug and a great week for you.
but I said that I expected Portugal would receive a rework similar to Aragon hopefully with a new unique mechanic added. I know aragon should not be considered a great power. I know none of the nations in the game are great powers for the whole duration of the time period, not even the Ottomans. But I never claimed those things!
It's about the height of power of each nation, as I mentioned, in my opinion portugal height of power in this time period is not as big as the ottomans, french, spanish, british etc. And this dlc seems to focus on those nations(also japan which was not a great power either, in my opinion). I guess I shouldn't have used the term great power since this seems a sensitive term to many people.
 
Second and third portugese empires are pretty high up but the first is not.
And yet, the first empire was unironically the first global power, being able to effectively
defeat well established, technologically equal empires across the entire planet while outnumbered 20 to 1.
While the second and third empires were minor regional powers at best.

Which other tag has anything remotely similar under their belt? Spain inherited basically all their power in Europe and outside it, they beat empires literally on the stone age, using the locals as 90% of their fighting force and having plague doing 90% of the killing.
Great Britain did it 200 years later with unmatched technological advantage.
France and Russia were already the biggest fish in the pond from the get go.
Only Prussia and 14th-16th century Ottomans were able to rise from a similarly humble beginings and punch similarly above their weight to great success.

Land Area means absolutely nothing. Portugal was at an incomparably stronger position in 1520 than 1820, despite being at it's territorial height in 1820.

Now, from what i understand, this DLC/Patch is focused on late-game "Final Bosses".
Portugal absolutely does NOT qualify as a late game final boss. The Portuguese strenght peaked very early on at about 1530, then sort of remained stagnant with ups and downs until 1755 and it entered an absolute free fall ending in 1820 as a minor power at best.
Now the reason why Portugal should get some attention in this DLC/Patch is because it has been long overdue.
Portugal was absolutely trash as a tag before Golden Century, and despite Golden Century being supposed their DLC they were totaly neglected on it, Castile/Aragon/Spain have always been completely superior in every measurable metric and every patch, every new mechanic or content added concerning Iberia only agravates this already massive gap even further and further, in fact it should be stated as fact that Portugal never had a DLC, most of the improvements to Portugal happened in small patches after the community had a meltdown over their mistreatment in GC.
Right now, under player hands Portugal can become quite strong, but under player hands literally every tag can become quite strong. However, under the AI, Portugal serves 1 purpose only: To colonise for you, until you decide it's time to steamroll them with 0 effort and steal their colonies.

Nobody is asking for them to be a late game superblob great power, all everyone is asking is for them to be given at least some way to attempt to defend their core territory with some dignity, something which they did flawlessly for the entire period.

Right now, you start as Aragon, inherit Castile, get a P.U claim on Portugal, declare war on Portugal, have your vassal Castile easily beat them to a pulp and successfuly achieve, as Aragon, in 30 years, without losing a single soldier or ducat, what Spain never managed to do in it's entire history.
Does this sound remotely sane to anybody?
 
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Portugal was a Great Power until 1580, since the beggining of the reign of John II until the disastreous Iberian Union. Spain cleary replace Portugal after 1580.

It's funny, if King Sebastian I didn't go to Morocco for a stupid cruzade and instead decided to remain at home and married a noblewoman with a Hagsburg chin history could have been very different, the colonial conquests of the Dutch Republic in Asia was mainly portuguese holdings and Portugal was only attacked because was a junior partner of Castille. It's one of that moments were minor things make huge impacts.
 
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And yet, the first empire was unironically the first global power, being able to effectively
defeat well established, technologically equal empires across the entire planet while outnumbered 20 to 1.
While the second and third empires were minor regional powers at best.

Which other tag has anything remotely similar under their belt? Spain inherited basically all their power in Europe and outside it, they beat empires literally on the stone age, using the locals as 90% of their fighting force and having plague doing 90% of the killing.
Great Britain did it 200 years later with unmatched technological advantage.
France and Russia were already the biggest fish in the pond from the get go.
Only Prussia and 14th-16th century Ottomans were able to rise from a similarly humble beginings and punch similarly above their weight to great success.

Land Area means absolutely nothing. Portugal was at an incomparably stronger position in 1520 than 1820, despite being at it's territorial height in 1820.
See? I didn't know about that war, that's cool. I might search for a video/documentary on YouTube and put it while I work. Likewise, I agree that landmass does not mean that much but I only mentioned it because someone else did really, if you re read my comments they are all in the same line of thought as what you said ...

I'm not gonna defend my words more because the number of people answering me keeps increasing and everybody uses a different perspective and seem to assume things I did not mean.
 
please don't get angry
Not angry at all.
I'm limited on time so long story short using your definition of great power.

Portugal was sending fleets across the ocean projecting their military in a scale that no one else in history had done, while advancing naval technology, ship building and naval artilery considerably.

Economically Lisbon became the comercial center of Europe, and Portuguese became the Lingua Franca of trade.

A Carrack full of trade goods was worth half the English treasury in the 16th century.

Politically just check the reign of John III as an example.
Gots to go
 
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See? I didn't know about that war, that's cool. I might search for a video/documentary on YouTube and put it while I work. Likewise, I agree that landmass does not mean that much but I only mentioned it because someone else did really, if you re read my comments they are all in the same line of thought as what you said ...

I'm not gonna defend my words more because the number of people answering me keeps increasing and everybody uses a different perspective and seem to assume things I did not mean.
We cool.
Don't take my entire rant as a direct reply to what you said, i have a tendency to start replying to one line and get derailed into a whole essay.
 
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@Pavía Do i still need the land ofPortugal to full fill the mission Recover Portugal, because personally i would like to have two ways to full fill it one by conquering and 2 by having really good relations with them where both Portugal and Spain/Castille get a smal bonus. I would really like to play a game with Portugal as my friend and not as my enemy.
 
Considering that England will be able to choose national ideas (through a new formable) depending on if they want to focus on overseas expansion or dominating Europe, and that the PLC has different NIs depending on if Poland or Lithuania forms them, perhaps Spain should also have different NIs based on the conquest-focuses Aragon and the more colonization focused Castile (and perhaps even the extremely colonial Portugal). Aragon-Spains NIs could then look something like this:

Traditions

+1 Artillery Fire
+20% Galley Combat Ability

The Strait of Messina


The Strait of Messina forms a crucial artery for Mediterranean trade as it allows merchant vessels to circumvent the southern waters invested by Barbary Pirates. Establishing a tax on merchants to use this route would greatly increase our coffers.

+10% Trade Efficiency

Emperor of the Mediterranean

Not since the age of the Romans has the Mediterranean seen a state as influential as ours. Port by port we advance along the African coast and in Italy, and even in foreign cities our envoys and traders are a common sight, allowing us to employ the various skills of the people living along the Mediterranean for our benefit.

-10% Core Creation Cost
+1 max accepted culture

One Realm, Many Crowns

Spain is not a centralized realm but rather a collection of various autonomous kingdoms held by a single monarch. The internal laws of these territories vary to a great extent, and while efficiently administrating such a decentralized entity is a ardous task, it has given us a certain knack for working things out.

+1 diplomatic relation

Southern March of Christianity

Through all the Middle Ages Iberia has been a front in the struggle between the soldiers of Christ and the Mohammedans, and while the Peninsula has since been retaken a new front against the infidels has emerged in northern Africa. As we push onward, we must make sure that the Holy Faith does as well.

+1% missionary strength
+1 yearly papal influence

Ibero-Italian Arts

New styles in architecture and painting have emerged from a fusion of Iberian and Italian traditions. These works of art have quickly gained great renown and admiration, something which reflects greatly upon our state.

+1 yearly prestige

Opposing the Ottoman Navy


The Ottoman Empire is a threat not only at land, but also at sea. If we wish the break their stranglehold on the eastern Mediterranean, we must create a Navy that can wrestle control of the seas from them.


+20% naval force limit modifier

Reform the Sindicats


Though no longer in existence, the sindicat remenca once emerged as a way for the peasantry to protects themselves against the abuses of the nobility, sparking great conflict in our country. But perhaps it is time to revive the idea as a way to reorganize our economy.


+10% goods produced

Ambition

+15% morale of armies
 
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Spain did have a bit of a problem in the early game generating mana points, but this new government mechanic is going way too far as giving them more mana points than any country could possibly generate. that's without mentioning all the new missions that reward them with more monarch skills and 100ds of mana points.
and about the artillery fire in their ideas, that idea already buffed their ships a lot so putting this together with their new ships' ability I think it's going to be a bit too. much
 
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Considering that England will be able to choose national ideas (through a new formable) depending on if they want to focus on overseas expansion or dominating Europe, and that the PLC has different NIs depending on if Poland or Lithuania forms them, perhaps Spain should also have different NIs based on the conquest-focuses Aragon and the more colonization focused Castile (and perhaps even the extremely colonial Portugal). Aragon-Spains NIs could then look something like this:

Traditions

+1 Artillery Fire
+20% Galley Combat Ability

The Strait of Messina

The Strait of Messina forms a crucial artery for Mediterranean trade as it allows merchant vessels to circumvent the southern waters invested by Barbary Pirates. Establishing a tax on merchants to use this route would greatly increase our coffers.

+10% Trade Efficiency

Emperor of the Mediterranean

Not since the age of the Romans has the Mediterranean seen a state as influential as ours. Port by port we advance along the African coast and in Italy, and even in foreign cities our envoys and traders are a common sight, allowing us to employ the various skills of the people living along the Mediterranean for our benefit.

-10% Core Creation Cost
+1 max accepted culture

One Realm, Many Crowns

Spain is not a centralized realm but rather a collection of various autonomous kingdoms held by a single monarch. The internal laws of these territories vary to a great extent, and while efficiently administrating such a decentralized entity is a ardous task, it has given us a certain knack for working things out.

+1 diplomatic relation

Southern March of Christianity

Through all the Middle Ages Iberia has been a front in the struggle between the soldiers of Christ and the Mohammedans, and while the Peninsula has since been retaken a new front against the infidels has emerged in northern Africa. As we push onward, we must make sure that the Holy Faith does as well.

+1% missionary strength
+1 yearly papal influence

Ibero-Italian Arts

New styles in architecture and painting have emerged from a fusion of Iberian and Italian traditions. These works of art have quickly gained great renown and admiration, something which reflects greatly upon our state.

+1 yearly prestige

Opposing the Ottoman Navy

The Ottoman Empire is a threat not only at land, but also at sea. If we wish the break their stranglehold on the eastern Mediterranean, we must create a Navy that can wrestle control of the seas from them.

+20% naval force limit modifier

Reform the Sindicats

Though no longer in existence, the sindicat remenca once emerged as a way for the peasantry to protects themselves against the abuses of the nobility, sparking great conflict in our country. But perhaps it is time to revive the idea as a way to reorganize our economy.

+10% goods produced

Ambition

+15% morale of armies
My 2-cents for a Portuguese (Possibly Galician and maybe even Leon)-formed Spain: (I will leave it to the artists among us to give them a nice description, but will offer my reasoning)


Traditions:
(Based on the Castro (Hillfort) culture, whom all these 3 tags share as ancestor. Known for impressively hard sieges, such as in the Asturican Wars where Emperor Agustus had to siege the entire mountain range with 8 legions and half a dozen auxiliary units to finally end the 2 century long conflict., These tribe's armies consisted almost exclusively in light infantry.)
+10% Infantry Combat Ability (From NI's of Portugal, Galicia and Leon)
+20% Fort Defense (From NI's of Galicia)

Oceanic Seafaring
(Opening up with the objective difference between a Portuguese-Castilian union in comparison with the real Castile-Aragon is. Instead of being a nation divided in the Oceanic and Mediterranean affairs, this new Spain would be exclusively Oceanic concerned and very likely the major naval power in Europe up until the late 1700's. as both Spain and Portugal fulfiled that role at different times by themselves, even more so combined. )
+5% Ship Durability (From NI's of Galicia)
+1 Naval Tradition (From NI's ofGalicia)

Mare Clausum
(Second idea drops at around 1490, perfect timing when both Portugal and Castile were doing the exact same thing, discovering a naval route to "India". Of course only one actually discovered that, the other discovered the new world. Should Portugal and Castile be united by 1490, Colombus would NOT be in Spanish service as Portugal would reject him. This means that unlike what it would seem at first, a Portuguese-Castilian P.U would actually lead to a LATER colonisation of the Americas. So this idea is focused on the Portuguese trajectory only, and the Realm would be focused in the Indian Ocean mostly.)
Can fabricate claims on any overseas province, provided it is overseas for its owner (From Castile)
+20% Colonial Range (From NI's of Portugal)

Carreira da Índia
(Early 1500's would be focused on an even more impressive domination of trade in the East than irl Portugal did, the Americas would soon be discovered by English-Hired Colombus or some other explorer like Cabral, Colonization of the Americas would probably focus on the Caribbean like the Spanish did as it was generally the most promissing part of the continent, Brazil would probably be sidelined, as the Portuguese no longer had the incentive to take it to enforce Tordesilhas, and simply focus on the more important Mesoamerican civilizations, but the Conquest of the Americas would be much slower, possibly a lot less aggressively as it did, disease would still colapse the native civilizations so conquest would probably be innevitable sooner or later.)
+20% Light Ship Trade Propagation (New NI)

The Invincible Armada
(Late 1500's we don't have to play guess, Portugal and Castile fell under a P.U together in 1580, and in the 1580's the famous "Spanish Armada" also known as "Invincible Armada" was an existential threat to the English, and despite the fact that the English victory at the Gravelines was the battle that became famous, the English counter-armada was far more thoroughly destroyed by the "Spanish" fleet, whose majority of Warships were of the Portuguese Crown.)
+1 Artillery Fire (From NI's of Portugal)
+10% Morale of Navies (From NI's of Portugal)

Masters of the New World
(By the early 1600's English and French colonial competition would force "Spain" to go all in the new world as historical Spain did, but only at about this time.)
+1 Colonist (From NI's of Leon & Castile)
+15% Global Tariffs (From NI's of Portugal)

Colonial Hegemon
(By the late 1600's it's fair to say this tag would have the vast majority of the New World colonized, and Historically it probably would end up with them singlehandedly holding the majority of it, even if less than what they did separately.)
-15% Liberty Desire on Subjects (New NI)

Guerilha Warfare
(After the Restoration War, we don't have any more instances of shared history, perhaps until the Peninsular War, where both Portugal and Spain were famously known for coining the very term of Guerilla Warfare (In the idea it should be spelt with the Portuguese orthography ofc).
+1 Attrition for Enemies (New NI)

Ambition:
-15% Fire Damage Taken
(New NI)
(Best combat modifier that represents the advantages of Guerilla warfare. You don't stand in formation exchanging volleys).

Edit: @Sete You probably want to add that to your thread
 
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Portugal is as much a descendant of the Visigoths as is Castile. The county of Porto was reconquered by Asturian nobility. Their rulers were Asturian nobility (descended from Visigoths) and the realm was part of Asturias and later Leon for a couple centuries. Whatever the differences of the common people, their rulers all came from the same stock.

Your point is quite irrelevant. The leaders might have shared some DNA but what then? Do you want to compare the people living just because of the rulers governing it? Might as well say Portugal is Indian right now, considerating the Portuguese prime minister. Look, even Denmark had German Monarchs, you can't really make these comparisons. Might as well say that England was French.

The Portuguese never claimed to be the descendants/heirs of the Visigothic Kingdom, nor could they. Also the Imperator totius Hispaniae title was a thing that never even came close to be claimed or used by the Portuguese monarchy. These things can be somewhat related to where the original idea of (modern) Spain comes from. Portugal never even remotely cared about these things.

In fact, if Portugal actually cared about any "iberian Unity", Afonso Henriques would have never fought against Afonso VII, since Afonso VII was crowned Emperor of Hispania with every Hispanic King present EXCEPT the (future king of Portugal) Afonso Henriques. Even then, the "uniqueness" (which accordingly to you never existed) of Portugal was vibrant despite the close similarities and the gap (gap which was smaller by 1135 than by 1440).


And remember, the Suebi kingdom was conquered by the Visigothic kingdom over 100 years before the Moorish invasion. Anyway, calling the people of either state Visigoths or Suebi is a mistake; both realms consisted of Hispano-Romans with a small percentage of Germanic rulers at the top. Culturally, the descent of both Portugal and Spain is very much Roman, rather than Gothic or Suebic.

Agreed, also the real Suebi, Visigoths, or Gothic peoples that arrived on the Peninsula barely had anything of the original ones that departed their homeland. It was a migration that took a lot of time, with people being left behind and new people being added in. Anyway, Portugal was also ruled by Spain / Philipines (monarchs) for quite a lot of decades, but that didn't wipe out Portuguese identity, either. In fact, even Catalans, Basques, and even Galicians still have their own identity present today after centuries of Castilian government. I don't understand your point - we can even argue about other nationalities, that have been subjugated for over a milenium - greeks or armenians, for instance. I agree, they have evolved from what they originally were, but everything evolves, in their own way, for good or for worse.

I could also argue about how much "Roman" Iberia was, for instance. In certain cities the ratio of "Romans" was 1 per 10.000 inhabitants if memory serves. And today, Germanic "DNA" in Northern Portugal is stronger than in the rest of Iberia. What i want to say, is that certain things are hard to categorize. There is no "Germanic DNA", because even the Germanic tribes evolved and even the native populations (that were left in their homeland) were subject to other people moving in. I mean, even the Germanic tribes moving in, were already quite "romanized". Many had already abandoned their pagan roots, or would later on. Specially the Visigoths, since they made a much larger journey than the Suebi.

Obviously we cannot say that Portugal has a lot of things that were gotten from the Suebi, but you cannot deny their importance either, for instance, in Braga's history. Braga, which was one of the cities that was largely involved in Portuguese own sovereignty./independence. If the Suebi had never been present, this would had been just another Visigothic province, just like it was once the Suebi Kingdom was conquered. Thus, the Suebi did leave their marks in here for more than a century and helped in promoting the "uniqueness" that accordingly to you never existed.


Your idea of "uniqueness" of Portugal is just as much a modern fantasy--invented long after the 15th century for nationalistic reasons--as the idea that everyone was "hermanos" (which is also a fantasy, but I didn't argue in its favor so not sure why you brought it up). Portugal was no more distinct from Castile than was Aragon or Navarre or Galicia; perhaps even less so in the case of Aragon.

Now now, you must be joking. If you want to state that, then we might as well say that Poland or Serbia is no different than Russia. We can say that Denmark and Sweden are very much like the same, just like Castile and Aragon was, but to state the same about Portugal is a falacy - and pratically the same as stating that Serbia is the same as Russia. A distant cousin, perhaps, but not a brother. We can argue in any field you want - you will see the difference. If Portugal was exactly the same as you state, I dont see why John I (1375) had such a clear support of the population in order to remain independent. In fact, you will not see the same kind of thing across Iberia, at least not in such large numbers. Only in Galicia, and perhaps in Catalonia (with french support in the 1600's). In fact, how many times did the Castilians try to impose their own rule over the Portuguese, and how many times did the Portuguese rise against them? And mind you, these were never revolts of nobles hungry for power, since the nobles were in the fact the class that largely gave support to the Castilians all the time. If such a distinction never existed, than why would almost all of Portuguese society want to break up with their "Castilian brothers"? The answer, is obvious. If the similaries were so identical, the peasants wouldn't care about having one king or another king. Nor would the Castilians try to murder Galician culture as they tried to (and achieved, to a great extent). These things speak for themselves.


Spain was indeed created to gain legitimacy (among other reasons). Do you really think Portugal wouldn't want to gain that same legitimacy in a case where they unified or near-unified the peninsula?

Legitimacy, yes, but with the "kind of legitimacy" you speak of comes loss of power. Why would the King of Portugal, and the Portuguese nobility, want to lose part of their own power in order to raise the Castilian/Catalan/Basque nobility to the same status? Non-sense. To argue otherwise is pure folly.

Moscow could "form Russia" and claim to be the third Rome, defenders of slavs, or whatever else you wanted, because in their own lands they would not lose any power with such a claim. In fact, their position would be only strenghtened, inside and a "bit" even outside. They had no one to divide their power with. The Portuguese situation is very different however.

In-game, you only have missions that give claims and forces you to conquer (by force of arms) your Iberian cousins in some way. This only gives more force to my rethoric - why would the Portuguese Nobility, after crushing their foes under their boot, give them privileges? If "Restoration of Personal Union" CB was given on Aragon and Castile (via portuguese mission), perhaps, and only then, could we ever think of a Portuguese Spain, and even in that case it would be a very "hard if".
 
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Fair. And the order of Christ red.
And the Cross of St.George Blue, which was the one actually used specifically for the CoA of Portugal itself, and remained there in the centre in the form of the shields, until this very day.

The Cross of St Michael is blue, the Cross of St George is Red. Both were used, St George being very common throughout Europe at the time and even before. The Cross of St Michael was widely used in France and Provence. Note that it is blue on white background, but the inverse is also possible.

rel-mich.gif

Picture 0: Cross of Saint Michael

I am pretty sure this flag was mostly used back on Portugal's early roots and heavily tied to the Condado Portucalense (before the formation of the Kingdom of Portugal) however in 1440 pretty sure others were in place.

Now that is not true.
Blue and white are the only two colours that featured in every single Portuguese flag/CoA since ever. And the arguments go well beyond just a flag, no one is arguing based on the 1830 Blue/White flag, it's mostly based on the military uniforms from what i understand.

Blue and white is always present I have to agree. But only post-1700 (more frequently past 1750) do you actually start seeing soldiers using military uniforms with that colour (and due to foreign french/prussian influence, mind you). If you are changing a country's background colour in-game based on the military uniform, you are doing it wrong. If you are changing it based on the flag - you are again, doing it wrong. As I stated and will state again, Green background with a red cross of christ was usually seen flying on Portuguese Feitorias or even as battle standard, or even on Portuguese caravels / navies (usually only the cross of christ on white background for the navies though).

I only defend blue portugal for victoria III's timefrime, and only based on the blue-white flag.

There are 0 motives for a blue portugal in 1440. I mean, apart from the blue shields on the coat of arms, there was literally no blue ever being used except merchant ships. In 1440, there was no universal uniform for Portugal, as you can understand, so the military flags were usually:

Order of Avis
Order of Christ
Order of St George (widely known)

No blue ever found on either of these. Again, either red, or green. should be used.

Portuguese regular troops generally used blue uniforms with the exception of the Caçadores elite regiments which used Brown to blend better in the dry Spanish and Alentejan landscape.

Now TO BE FAIR, you do have a point with the 1640 war and the green flags. Green was indeed associated as the Royal colour of the House of Bragança, and the 1640 war was a war to put the House of Bragança on the Portuguese throne, so it makes sense that Green would be the main Portuguese colour in that specific conflict, and it's honestly the best argument for Green Portugal.

The "generally used" blue uniform was only during WW1's timeframe, mind you. Pre-WW1 uniform, it was a mess of colours, depending on what you are speaking of. Different ranks, different troops (normal infantry, grenadiers, cavalry, etc), that sort of thing...

1s6oCpB.png

Picture 1: First known "official" uniform, musketeer belonging to the Armada's Terço, 1618


ip3-infantariagr.jpg

Picture 2: Portuguese Restoration War, 1640 (NOTE THE GREEN FLAG WITH RED CROSS)

rMRRF8Q.png


Picture 3: After Count Schoemberg's Military Reforms, 1660, more Terços, probably 2nd known "offcial" uniform


WIvW6Ay.png


Picture 4: Normal Infantry, 1721, notice the flag


ip3-auxiliares1.jpg


Picture 5: Fantastic War, 1762 and 1763 (normal blue and white uniforms like those seen in europe were also used to a degree)

soldados-da-leal-legic3a3o-lusitana.jpg


Picture 6: Napoleonic Wars 1807-1814 or somewhere close to that


There were, of course, a lot of white-blue uniforms on the army, but that is MOSTLY, from outside influence. Prussian and French (1750-1820) armies were the best at the time, so due to influence, many portuguese uniforms, were made in the same way, as well. Usually due to foreigners "modernizing" the Portuguese Army (Count Lippe for instance). There is no "general" blue uniform, unless you are speaking of ww1.

But then again, why would you base a country's background on the uniform soldiers used... DUE TO FOREIGN INFLUENCE?

I mean there were a lot of other uniforms of more national origin... In EU4, an able Portuguese Player will probably dominate land warfare as well so why should Portuguese armies not use their domestic colours instead.... Maybe in such scenario, France or Prussia do not even exist. I am fairly sure post 1700 white was far more predominant than blue though.

I actually agree that the times of unity were very few, in fact such unity only ever happened once, during the late Roman Empire.
However, your example of "Celt-Iberians peoples" vs "Lusitanians" is terrible.

The Iberian peninsula had several distinct cultures.
The Basques were genetically and linguistically (probably spoke a language surviving from the earliest inhabitants of the Peninsula, the Hunter-Gatherers) the most distinct people in the peninsula by an undisputable margin.

The Iberians and the Turdetanians were also quite distinct, they probably spoke a language that dates back to the Neolithic Farmers and had a culture heavily influenced by the Phoenicians and Greeks.

But the rest (Celts, Lusitanians and Celtiberians) were all relatively similar.
The Celts and the Lusitanians are basically the same people, they shared mostly the same Gods and descended mostly from the Indo-Europeans, including the languages.

The main difference is that the Lusitanian language was a more conservative version of what the Celtic language had once been.
When the Indo-Europeans arrived to Western Europe, they brought a language often called "Proto-Italo-Celtic", this language then evolved to become Latin in the Mediterranean region (Italy) and Celtic in the Atlantic region (Either Northern Iberia, Ireland, or most likely as a mix of both simultaneously. Lusitanian is essentially this old "Proto-Italo-Celtic" that remained isolated and stagnant in the mountainous regions.

As for the Celtiberians, they get this name because they wrote their (undeniably) Celtic language using the Iberian alphabet. This was not uncommon within Celtic peoples, since they dindnt have their own alphabets, what we know of Gaulish was often written in Greek. In fact, it was more Iberians who adopted elements of the Celtic culture, such as their metalwork, than the other way around.

With that said, the Celtiberian language is still considerably different from the Celtic language spoken in Western Iberia (often called Gallaecian) and Lusitanian was certainly closer to Gallaecian than Celtiberian.

You pratically stated what I had said, with a very long text. I agree that the Basques are a different sort, but they were so irrelevant for (iberian) history (during the time being spoken) that I left them out intentionally. Northwest Iberia was very much the same, but even back in those times there was a fine difference between Lusitanians, and other Iberians living in the north. I was most specifically speaking about warfare, but even religiously and in many other ways they were different.


Not true either, the last to be conquered were the Cantabrians, Astures and Gallaecians.

Again, people love to pick on little side details that are largely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. But if you really want to get on it: when all of iberia pratically fell like a deck of cards at the hand of the romans - the lusitanian resistance was the one that lasted the longest and that costed the romans the most. Resistance which we can actually believe to have lasted even after Roman conquest, for instance during Sertorius's war. There are also some records that state that Cantabrians were submitted to Roman rule in 195 BC. It will depend on what you consider legitimate, and your own definitions of conquest or submission. The cantabrians loved to play a double game (either by helping or raiding romans), but that is hardly something to be fond of, or to consider as resistance, for example.

Again, not true.
Warfare in Iron Age Western Europe was not really culture-dependent, but more economic/geographically dependent.
The Lusitanians were a highlands pastoral society, so they used more mobile hit and runs tactics, ambushes and guerilla, often using short swords and small shields. Many Celts from poorer pastoral areas waged war like this too, namely the Gallaeci, Astures and Cantabrians, and also the Gaels and Britons from the Islands. Other wealthier/more civilised Celts used more "standard" tactics, the Gauls and Celtiberians often used large shields in phalanx-like formation, in Greek fashion.
Outside of Celtic cultures, same applies, the wealthier Iberians and Turdetanians also used larger shields and open field formation fighting, while the poorer, mountain-dwelling basques used the same Hit-and-Run Guerrilla like the Lusitanians and such.

You said exactly what I had stated. The Lusitanians were often better armed due to economy/geography than their northern brothers, while the rest of the iberians fought totally different. You are picking on minor details just to state what I had actually said. You should note that Lustianian women were often seen fighting alongside men, unlike other parts of Iberia though.

Weaponry and the money a warrior had to afford, would also impact warfare. Most of the Iberian warriors barely had money for body armour, and usually only a limited cardiophylax. Lusitanians used chainmail, to a bigger degree. And I could go on and on.

Depends on the period we are also speaking of in certain cases. Southern Spain for instance flourished pre-roman times, but during the punic wars and roman invasions the region was in heavy decline, culturally, and not only. But I was speaking of the period of resistance only, before you decide to pick on me again, man!

Again, the main difference here is between Iberians (large Mediterranean-like coastal cities with square buildings made of clay and brick) and Celts (small heavily fortified settlements on the hilltops, round houses made of slate or granite) and also their religions were quite distinct.
The Lusitanians however shared most Gods with other Celtic peoples, and even those exclusive to the Lusitanians, still have clearly Celtic names.

See you are not entirely incorrect but I will decide to pick on you this time just because you loved to do it on me: the lusitanian due to geography had more "influence" from the mediterreanean than their northern cousins. You will note what I said in certain deities, like the Ares-Lusitano. Clearly of greek influence and clearly Lusitanian and not with a celtic name. Bang!


You are being very unfair to the Basques, Catalans and the other ethnic groups of Spain. The Portuguese just happen to be independent, but a Basque and an Andalucian are FAR more distinct to eachother in all measurable manner than a Portuguese and a Galician.

Basques were always different as I stated early on this post, but they were so small and irrelevant to the context that I left them out on purpose. "Andalucians" are much more modern though, and due to rights of conquest, pretty much irrelevant in the end as well (EU4's timeframe). But I understand your point and will not contest it.

And this is EXACTLY why Portugal would create "Spain" if given the chance.
It's basically mandatory for any group of people to create a general state-identity in order to gain legitimacy and keep control over their subjugated peoples (France, Italy, Germany... all did this)

If Portugal was to ever rule the Peninsula or a large part of it, it would have to create a Spanish identity to keep the rest of the Iberians from seeing the Portuguese as their foreign oppressors.

Of course, it would be an entierly different concept of "Spain". The language would still be called "Spanish" but de facto be Portuguese (like modern "Spanish" is nothing more than simply Castilian) the Capital would be in Lisbon (maybe Merida to appease the Castilian majority but keeping it in Lusitania) and the whole creation myth would not be focused on Pelayo, the Visigothic Kingdom, and the symbolic importance of Toledo but maybe something like Rechila, the Suebian Kingdom and the Symbolic importance of Braga, and of course, the flag would feature the Portuguese CoA front and center.

I will disagree for the reasons I already spoke before. The Portuguese Nobility/King would never give up their power by elevating other subjects to the same rank. Creating Spain would involve this. At least, theorically speaking.

And there are other things as to why Portugal should never create Spain - Imperator totius Hispaniae title was only claimed by Non-Portuguese Kings, and the simple fact the Kings of Portugal never claimed to be the true heirs of the Visigothic Kingdom of old. Such pretensions were only made by other Iberian Kings.

We can argue on little points if you want, but the facts will remain facts.

Also EU4's missions do not help in this case, and only show that a Portuguese player will only be able to impose his will by force of arms with normal conquest CBs (there are 0 restoration of PU casus belli). In such cases, the Portuguese nobility would divide the gains amongst themselves and promote their own interests.

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Portugal absolutely does NOT qualify as a late game final boss. The Portuguese strenght peaked very early on at about 1530, then sort of remained stagnant with ups and downs until 1755 and it entered an absolute free fall ending in 1820 as a minor power at best.

Bro, you are wrong on this assessment. Switzerland, Denmark, etc might be minor powers by 1820, but Portugal was far larger by 1820 with Brazil still included, and far richer. Stating that they were a minor power is hilarious. One of the major powers for sure, but definetely not a Great Power like Britain or France.

P.S: Forgive me for double post, but I wanted things properly tidy due to... WALL OF TEXT!!!!
 
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I am pretty sure this flag was mostly used back on Portugal's early roots and heavily tied to the Condado Portucalense (before the formation of the Kingdom of Portugal) however in 1440 pretty sure others were in place.
Alright, i'm going to try to keep it shorter than before. Please don't take it personaly, some of the more off-topic issues expecially regarding the Lusitanians were not me trying to score "gotchas" and undermine your credibility but simply me finding excuses to rant about the Iron Age because it's my favourite period.

The "Condado Portucalense" is Portugal. It literally means County of Portugal and is no less Portugal than the Kingdom of Portugal.
Also, there are 12th century parchments detailing the CoAs of Europe and Portugal's CoA is literally an entierly blue shield, not even a cross.
But only post-1700 (more frequently past 1750) do you actually start seeing soldiers using military uniforms with that colour (and due to foreign french/prussian influence, mind you)
@Sete showed evidences of blue being widely used in the Conquest of Ceuta 1415 as well as other instances in the 17th and 18th centuries.
You cannot claim it was foreign influence as the French in the 18th century used white until the Revolution, and Prussian Blue was literally only discovered in the early 18th century and adoped into Prussia's unoforms in the late 18th.

As I stated and will state again, Green background with a red cross of christ was usually seen flying on Portuguese Feitorias or even as battle standard, or even on Portuguese caravels / navies (usually only the cross of christ on white background for the navies though).
I definitely need a source on those claim as the cross of christ with a green background was only adopted by the Braganza dynasty in the war of Restoration. Much later than what you seem to be implying.

In 1440, there was no universal uniform for Portugal,
Now that's true and fair enough.
The claim is that whenever there was something resembling to one, it was more often than not blue. Of course you would find pretty much every colour depending on time, rank and role, expecially the further back you go.

The "generally used" blue uniform was only during WW1's timeframe, mind you. Pre-WW1 uniform, it was a mess of colours, depending on what you are speaking of. Different ranks, different troops (normal infantry, grenadiers, cavalry, etc), that sort of thing...
But standardised uniforms were indeed used before ww1, at least since the restoration war, and in all of them, except the Restoration war itself, were mostly blue.
Picture 2: Portuguese Restoration War, 1640 (NOTE THE GREEN FLAG WITH RED CROSS)
Yes, that was the only conflict where that flag was used and Green was used, because Green was the Bragança Dynasty's personal colour, and this was first and foremost dynastic war between the Braganças and Habsburgs over Portugal.

Picture 3: After Count Schoemberg's Military Reforms, 1660, more Terços, probably 2nd known "offcial" uniform
Note that at this point not even Prussia had adopted the Blue Uniforms neither had Prussian Blue been discovered yet.

Picture 4: Normal Infantry, 1721, notice the flag
2129230_L92I2.png

Yes, it was adopted during the Restoration war, for dynastic reasons, and changed to this soon after.

Fantastic War, 1762 and 1763 (normal blue and white uniforms like those seen in europe were also used to a degree)
I have seen those exact same style uniforms (possibly the same artist even) for Portugal but were Blue. I believe they were posted in the Blue Portugal thread.
I'm not going to argue about this, you can move the discussion there if you want.

Picture 6: Napoleonic Wars 1807-1814 or somewhere close to that
Portugal in the Napoleonic wars used extensively blue uniforms, with the notable exception of the Caçadores regiments, which used neutral colours such as brown or green to blend better with the landscape, proto-camouflage so to speak.

there was a fine difference between Lusitanians, and other Iberians living in the north.
There were no Iberians in the North.
(But i assume you meant Iberian Peninsula tribes)

when all of iberia pratically fell like a deck of cards at the hand of the romans
The conquest of Iberia lasted 200 years, and took many different wars, it was by far the Roman province that took the longest to conquer. If it fell like a deck of cards, gravity must have been asleep for a couple of centuries.

the lusitanian resistance was the one that lasted the longest and that costed the romans the most
I can't really argue specifics with this, because it depends on what metrics one chooses to use to measure this.

There were many wars waged to conquer Hispania, one could argue there were tribes who resisted for longer than the Lusitanians, but other could claim one should only count the time when there was an active Roman effort to conquer such area, in which case the Lusitanians might take the cake.

We have no sources on how much it costed the Romans, we know that the Asturian and Cantabrian wars involved by FAR the highest Roman mobilization in Iberia ever, and from the brutality of the conflict it is very likely that that war was the most costly for Roman lives overall, but we don't know exactly how many losses the Romans suffered.

However in the Lusitanian war, the Lusitanians actually defeated many Roman invasion forces and even managed to go on the offensive in Roman territory in South and East Hispania. So in relative terms i would agree that the Lusitanians put up the most competent resistance to Rome indeed.

Resistance which we can actually believe to have lasted even after Roman conquest, for instance during Sertorius's war.
Correct, although in the Sertorian wars, the Gallaecians, Astures and Cantabri were still not even conquered in the first place and remained independent for many decades after.

There are also some records that state that Cantabrians were submitted to Roman rule in 195 BC.
Perhaps they did.
But then again so did the Lusitanians before the Lusitanian wars.

There were many such cases of inconsequential submissions that still led to war later on. The Gallaecians too were allegedlly first subdued by Julius Caesar himself, but then also rose up against the Romans later on alongside the Astures.

You should note that Lustianian women were often seen fighting alongside men, unlike other parts of Iberia though.
The only account of women fighting alongside men in Iberia was from Decimus Julius Brutus failed invasion Gallaecia, where they mention the Bracari (Gallaecian tribe) women to fight alongside men.
However if the Gallaeci did it, i assume the Lusitani most likely did it as well.

Most of the Iberian warriors barely had money for body armour, and usually only a limited cardiophylax. Lusitanians used chainmail, to a bigger degree. And I could go on and on.
Yes, Iberians didn't use Chainmail, but the Celts did, not just the Lusitani but also the rest of the Hispanian Celts.

the lusitanian due to geography had more "influence" from the mediterreanean than their northern cousins.
Strongly doubt any such influence was of any significance. The Lusitanians were landlocked and lived in the highlands, the closest Phoenician and Greek colonies were located in the non-Lusitanian lands of the Counei in modern Algarve.

You will note what I said in certain deities, like the Ares-Lusitano
Not a Lusitanian name.
Mentions to the "Lusitanian Ares" were all Roman accounts from well after the conquest was done. Romans often used their own (or Greek) gods names when describing local deities in subjugated lands.
The Celtic Godess Brigantia was often called by the Romans as [local tribe's] Minerva, Lugh as [local tribe's] Mercury, Taranis as [local tribe's] Jupiter and Cossus as [local tribe's] Mars.

The Portuguese Nobility/King would never give up their power by elevating other subjects to the same rank
Then he would never be able to keep all of Iberia subjected.
Castile had 5x the Population of Portugal, do you think they would all just roll over and accept being subjugated?

Bro, you are wrong on this assessment. Switzerland, Denmark, etc might be minor powers by 1820, but Portugal was far larger by 1820 with Brazil still included, and far richer. Stating that they were a minor power is hilarious. One of the major powers for sure, but definetely not a Great Power like Britain or France.
Semantics.
Portugal was definitely stronger than Denmark or Switzerland, but relative to the rest of Europe it was far weaker than it had ever been (eu4 timeframe).
In the 1470's Portugal was annihilating the entire Castilian Atlantic fleet.
In 1580's the Portuguese Fleet (under Spanish command) destroyed the English fleet at Corunha, Lisbon and Azores and launched 3 invasions of the British Islands.
In the 1800's Portugal literally could not stop the French fleet from sailing up the Tagus and blockading Lisbon smh.
It went from waging an impressive global-spanning war against Spain and the Netherlands in the 1600's-1680's, and warding off joint Spanish-French invasions even while effectively bankrupt from the Earthquake in the 1760's... to buckling to humiliating French demands in 1807, still getting invaded, and fleeing to Brazil (couldnt even do it themselves, had the British escort the fleet) in by far the most pathetic chapter of Portuguese history, abandoning the entire country to be occupied without a fight, until the British intervened.

Also, as far as estimated GDP per capita was concerned, Portugal was literally the poorest country in Western Europe by 1800 with Spain as a close second (Unlike in 1500 and 1700 respectively when it was wealthier than Spain, Britain, and almost as wealthy as France.)
 
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Please, make Castilian Civil war end on Portugal or Aragon PU for the one who wins it. Becoming the AI the lesser partner in case you are playing Portugal or Aragon.
 
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