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Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 21st of February 2023 - Spain

¡Hola a todo el mundo, y bienvenidos! In this week’s Development Diary, we will be talking about the content that we have created for Spain and the different Iberian countries, mainly Castile and Aragon, as they are the top runners for its formation.

First of all, for the redesign of Spain’s content for the upcoming DLC, we took a bit different approach than other countries that have been shown in the previous weeks, following this line of thoughts:
- We thought that its mission trees did not need a major overhaul, as it was already quite developed in Golden Century, covering most of the Conquest & Colonization paths required as Spain; therefore, we aimed to redesign its structure, adding a few missions here and there to get some extra flavor, and to rework triggers and rewards, to update them in line with the other Great Powers.
- We also decided to put more effort into adding more ‘mechanical content’ instead.
- On top of that, we also decided to add more unique content, linked to new game mechanics, but also to older ones, such as adding new Holy Orders for Golden Century owners, in order to keep adding more depth to the game as a whole.
- I tried to add some not-so-known chunks of Spanish History to the content, because, you know, I have a previous background as Historian!

That said, let’s get started with the new content for Castile! When we started designing it, we decided that nothing could be more iconic that adding another civil war disaster:

1. Disaster Infantes.jpg

Note: Effects and numbers are not final, as usual.

The Infantes of Aragon were the sons of Fernando/Ferrán I, the first king of the Trastámara dynasty in Aragon, and therefore cousins of Juan II, king of Castile; his first wife, María de Aragón, was their sister. Early in the reign of Juan II, they tried to puppet the king, and seize power, leaning on their large properties in the country, and the support they had from a big sector of the Castilian Nobility. This is also portrayed by a new starting privilege for Castile’s Nobility, which will cause the following disaster to progress:

2. Factionalist Nobility.jpg

3. Disaster progress.jpg

A cursed start for Castile, I know, I know.
What will happen after the disaster fires is that this event will be triggered, giving two different choices to the player:

4. Infantes event 1.jpg

5. Infantes event 2.jpg

6. Infantes event 2.jpg

The disaster will now be possible to be ended, and as you may have noticed, it will impact the outcome of a new mission:

7. Disaster ending.jpg

8. Infantes mission.jpg

The first path will reduce the effects of the Factionalist Nobility, making it easier to get rid of it earlier, apart from giving a temporary boost to Juan II, but also comes with a bunch of rebels. The second decision means that the ‘Factionalist Nobility’ will be empowered, fewer rebels will appear, and it will give Castile early ‘Restoration of Union’ Casus Belli on Aragon and Navarra, as it means the supremacy of the same line of the Trastámara dynasty over all the three countries. But, on top of that, the event ‘Isabella of Castile’ won’t be triggered if you decide to back the Infantes in their fight against the king, thus making it more difficult to have ‘The Iberian Wedding’ event, and the peaceful unification of Spain. It’s up to the player to decide which path to follow, with its own trade-offs: Back the king and face the Nobility early on, or side with the Infantes, and aim for an early military push to form Spain.

Although the start of Castile will be troublesome, as there will still be the possibility of the 'Castillian Civil War' trigger, we wanted to make it rewarding to get out of it in any of the ways decided, and we also made a minor change in order that early game is a bit more bearable:

9. Enrique 0.jpg

Enrique IV ‘the 0/0/0’ is nevermore a 0/0/0!

Now let’s move on to see what the new mission tree for Castile and then Spain looks like:

10. CAS-SPA tree.png

Note: As usual, the design and art of the tree are not final.

You may have noticed a big change in the redesign, as we decided to leave the upper half of the tree as the Conquest & Government part of it, while the lower half will be for Trade & Colonization. There is a reason for this, which you will see later on the DD. For now, let’s discuss the most important changes for the Castile path to Spain.

The right-most part of the tree is designed around a new set of missions covering the evolution of the Modern State in Spain in the late 15th and early 16th centuries. The first one is about the final appeasement of the Castilian Nobility:

11. Reinforce Royal Authority.jpg

12. Reinforce Royal Authority 2.jpg

This leads to ‘Law and Order’, which will give nice flavor bonuses to the provinces of Valladolid and Granada until the end of the game, being the seats of the two main courts of justice in the country, the ‘Reales Chancillerías’:

13. Chancillerías 1.jpg

14. Chancillerías 2.jpg

Related to these, although not connected to them, we have another set of 3 missions down in the mission tree that is about the Government of the Spanish Empire:

15. Government.jpg

The first one will trigger the following event after completion:

16. Spanish Dollar.jpg

The second is directly linked to the construction of the ‘El Escorial’ monument. Meanwhile, the third one will lead to a new mechanic we are implementing for Spain, the ‘System of Councils’, (based upon the historical Polysynodial System) which will be unlocked by a Government Reform of the same name:

17. System of Councils mission.jpg

18. System of Councils reform.jpg

How is this mechanic working? It will open a new 0-100 progress bar, the ‘Council Consensus’, which will be slowly refilled depending on your Monthly Average Autonomy and Monthly Average Liberty Desire of your subjects. Numbers are still WIP, but our initial design is to make it so that the bar can be filled at 10 years the fastest, while not progressing at all if Monthly Average Autonomy and Monthly Average Liberty Desire are 100%:

19. System of Councils bar max.png

Note: Ruler ability modifiers are placeholder ones to make the mechanic appear in the game, there is still some code support needed to make it fully work with the ‘Monthly Average Autonomy’ and ‘Monthly Average Liberty Desire’ that I’ve mentioned. Also, take into account that the other numbers are also WIP.
The ‘Council Consensus’ will give an increasing escalating effect, giving you Monthly Splendor and Administrative Efficiency, but that’s not its only benefit, as when you reach 100 ‘Council Consensus’, you may be able of spending that amount in one of the three Government Actions, tied to each of the monarch powers. After clicking the button, you will get +1 monarch power of the chosen type for 10 years, and an event similar to the Estate Agendas will trigger, upon which you might be able to pick one of the Councils of that branch to support for 10 years, getting an additional modifier for that period.

20. system_councils_button_1.png

21. system_councils_button_2.png

22. system_councils_button_3.png

23. system_councils_event_example.png

24. System of Councils UI.png

Note: UI is WIP, but in the last pic you’ve got the current design of the new buttons, for the ‘Royal Council’, the ‘Council of State’, and the ‘Council of War’, respectively.

So, coming back to the new mission trees, let’s go to the leftmost part of it. We have moved there the already existing missions for the Spanish Armada and Invade England, but we have added 3 more there, making it the ‘Military Branch’ of the mission tree:

25. Military missions.png

The first mission, ‘Armies of Iberia’, will unlock the Navy and Army paths of the branch. But the meaty new content is on the Land part, to be honest, as we have created a new government reform for the Spanish Tercios:

26. armies_iberia_mission.png

27. assemble_tercios_mission.png

Which is, obviously, a new type of Land Special Unit!

28. tercios_basic.png

Note: Grey color is provisional.

This unit might be recruited from provinces of the Iberian culture group, and their availability will be increased by the Army Tradition that Spain has at the moment. So, that means that you will be able to recruit double the amount of Tercios if your Army Tradition is 100. About its combat performance, these units will have at the start the same modifier as Spain’s Tercios Age bonus, -30% Shock Damage Received (therefore, that means that we will change Spain’s Age bonus, although it is not yet decided, as we want to wait for a bit more to get results from our internal tests to give a proper new modifier).

But wait, this is not the end of the (Spanish) road! There is another mission, ‘Refine the Tercios’, which will allow you to modernize your Tercios units if you have a fixed number of Tercios (right now is 60, but this may change), and either 75% Army Professionalism or 90 Army Tradition, giving them the following effects on top until the end of the game, allowing Spain to extend the dominance of Tercios on the battlefields for a longer period than historically:

29. refine_tercios_mission.png

Note: Again, numbers are provisional, and might be changed.

This fits for us with the expanded Conquest missions of the tree:

30. rein_france_mission.png

‘Rein in France’ can be completed either by defeating or by allying with France, giving permanent Power Projection as a modifier.

31. Spanish Road.jpg

32. spanish_netherlands_mission.png

‘The Spanish Road’ aims to connect your dominions in Italy with the rich (and maybe cursed) Netherlands, which will now grant a big reward if completed.

33. Italy and Austria.jpg

34. fecho_imperio_mission.png

We have also reworked a bit the ‘Austrian branch’ flow and links and added a stronger reward for completing it (again, numbers are not final).

35. universal_monarchy_prerequisites2_mission.png

36. universal_monarchy_mission.png

If you manage to complete all the different branches of Conquest & Government, you will unlock a ‘finishing mission’ for Spain, giving a reward to your now Universal Empire.

OK, now we’re done with the Hegemonic Ambitions of Spain, so let’s move to the lower part of its mission tree, devoted to Trade & Colonization. The first redesign we made covers the commercial expansion and the new maritime routes that were established at the Age of Discovery. By completing it you will get some nice commercial bonuses, but most importantly, you will unlock two new types of ships:

37. Screenshot 2023-02-20 144559.jpg

38. reales_atarazanas.png

Here you have a new feature that we are adding to the upcoming DLC: Naval Special Units! A few countries will get them, on top of the 3 new special units that we have already presented (Samurai, Musketeers, and Tercios). And these are the Caravels and Galleons that are mentioned here:

39. caravel_ship_stats.png

40. galleon_ship_stats.png

After completing the ‘Reales Atarazanas’ mission, you will be able to recruit as much as 10% of your Naval Force Limit as this type of special ship (again, numbers are provisional).

This will help you with the Exploration branch, which we have not touched much, as it was already quite well developed. As you may have noticed, we have redesigned a bit the position and flow of the different missions, added a few different triggers and rewards here and there, and made a final mission after finishing the conquest of both México and Perú:

41. silver_trade.png

Here I’ve got to say that we have not added more content to the Colonial Nations and America. To be honest with you, it’s in our backlog, but it fell outside of the scope of the upcoming DLC, so this will have to wait for a future moment. What we are adding, on the other hand, is more types of Holy Orders, which will be part of the free update for the Golden Century DLC owners, and which will be the following ones (this list includes the 3 older ones, Jesuits, Dominicans, and Franciscans):

Monastic Orders (ADM)
  • Benedictines
    • -1 Local Unrest
    • +10% Trade Goods Size Modifier
  • Carthusians
    • -10% Local Construction Cost
    • -10% Local State Maintenance Modifier
  • Hieronymites
    • +10% Local Tax Modifier
    • -10% Local Governing Cost
  • Jesuits
    • +1% Local Missionary Strength
    • +10% Local Production Efficiency
Mendicant Orders (DIP)
  • Augustinians
    • +1 Institution Growth
    • -10% Local Missionary Maintenance Cost
  • Carmelites
    • +20% Local Religious Conversion Resistance
    • +20% Local Religious Unity Contribution
  • Dominicans
    • +1.5% Local Missionary Strength
    • +10% Local Institution Spread
  • Franciscans
    • -1 Local Unrest
    • -0.05 Monthly Devastation

Military Orders (MIL)
  • Order of Calatrava (CAS/NAV)
    • +10% Local Defensiveness
  • Order of Avis (POR)
    • +25% Local Sailors
  • Order of Montesa (ARA)
    • +25% Local Garrison Size
  • Order of Alcántara (LEO/AST)
    • -10% Local Fort Maintenance Modifier
    • -25% Local Construction Time
  • Order of Santiago
    • +5% Local Manpower
  • Order of San Juan
    • Blocks Slave Raids
    • -0.25 Local Monthly Devastation
42. Holy Orders tease.png

A sneak peek of the new WIP art of the Holy Orders!​

Let’s now move to Aragon! This country has received an update over its former mission tree, aiming at improving its game flow, but also to make it work with the Spanish one:

43. ARAtree.png

First and foremost, the mission ‘Intervene in Castile’ is new, giving the player different options for completing it:

44. Screenshot 2023-02-20 151600.jpg

45. intervene_in_castile_aragon.png

But to achieve dominance over Iberia, you will have to tackle first your internal problems, mainly the inflight between the Remença Peasants and the Catalan Nobility that was ongoing in the middle of the 15th century. You will have to wait for the ‘Sindicat Remença’ event to trigger, which has been reworked, giving an extra option that leads to turning Aragon into a Peasant Republic:

46. sindicat_remenca_event_peasant_option_aragon.png

This will open up the option of resolving ‘The War of the Remences’ mission, which will also allow you to deal with the Catalan Nobility, with different starting conditions depending on what you picked in the ‘Sindicat Remença’ event:

47. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152324.jpg

48. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152359.jpg

Afterward, you will be able to focus on the Conquest and Expansion branches of the mission tree:

49. Screenshot 2023-02-20 152611.jpg


‘Crowns of Iberia’ will give you the ‘Hegemon of Iberia’ modifier until the end of the game.
50. crowns_of_iberia_mission_aragon.png


‘Consulate of the Sea’ mission and event have been reworked, opening up a new government reform:
49. consulate_sea_mission_aragon.png

50. consulate_sea_event_aragon.png


‘Mediterranean Ambitions’ now unlock the expansion into the Eastern Mediterranean:
53.med_ambitions_aragon_mission.png


Some of the reworked rewards of the mission tree:
54. combat_barbary_piracy_mission_aragon.png

55. occupy_alexandria_mission_ara.png

56. industrial_districts_mission_aragon.png

57. golden_century_mission_aragon.png

And, finally, if you manage to form Spain as Aragon, what will happen is that you will keep the Aragonese mission tree, AND you will get the Trade & Colonization branch on the lower half, making for a different mission tree than that of a ‘Castilian’ Spain:

58. ARASPAtree.png

Finally, we made a limited rework to the Spanish Ideas, to make it work a bit better with all the other content:

  • Buffed Spanish Naval Doctrine
    • Move the 'A Spanish Armada' Idea modifiers to the Naval Doctrine
  • Ideas
    • Changed 'Devout Catholicism' name to 'Devout Christianism'
      • Added Church Power and Fervor in case of being Protestant or Reformed
    • 'Treasure Fleet' replaced by the Castilian Idea 'School of Salamanca'
      • Added +10% Reform Progress Growth (also to Castilian Idea)
    • 'A Spanish Armada' now gets:
      • +25% Naval Force Limit modifier from Treasure Fleet
      • +25% Available Marines
    • Changed 'Rein in the Cortes'
      • -5 Reduced Absolutism from Privileges
    • New Idea order:
      • Devout Christianism
      • Inter Caetera
      • School of Salamanca
      • A Spanish Armada
      • Casa de Contratación
      • Siglo de Oro
      • Rein in the Cortes

60. SPA_ideas_script.png
59. SPA_ideas_game.png


And speaking of the Spanish ideas, we are currently having a debate in the team about what to do with the Artillery Fire modifier, if to keep them as they are in the different idea sets, or replace them with something else. On this topic, we would like to hear out the opinion of the community, as this might be somewhat of a controversial issue (so, please, be civic while debating it!)

And what about the other Iberian countries? We have also added new content for Portugal and Navarra! But we are going to talk about that in a couple of weeks, along with other countries which were not considered to be part of the ‘core’ of the upcoming DLC; but trust me, we’re not diminishing Portugal’s role in the Early Modern Age! In fact, this is also a good opportunity to share with us which tweaks you would want to see, as we’re right now polishing that new content. What I can show now is a sneak peek of something that the Portuguese players have been asking for a while, and that we have changed for good:

61. Screenshot 2023-02-20 155043.jpg

A wild Blue Portugal appeared! So many fado vibes <3

That’s all for today! I’ll be spending some time this week on the forums, reviewing all the feedback from this DD, and also of the previous one, so please leave your comments and thoughts on the new content! And next week, @Ogele will be showing the content for Great Britain!

62. Comic.png
 

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I don't understand why so many people want to justify the existence of a path for Spain formed by Portugal in the game based on what happened before the Islamic invasion of the Iberian peninsula (if you don't force what happened with ancient times).

Very few traces (if not almost none) of the Lusitanians, Visigoths or Suebi remained in Portuguese society, never that would be a decent justification.

If it is to force alternative history, the most correct would be a different version of the War of Castilian Succession where the Battle of Toro was won by the Portuguese/Beltraneja supporters or a focus where Miguel da Paz (son of Isabela de Aragão, the eldest daughter of Isabel of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon, and Manuel I of Portugal) had not died as a child.

So I understand a lot of people want to force alternate history into the game because it's fun, but please, let's be a little realistic with the game's time frame.
 
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I don't understand why so many people want to justify the existence of a path for Spain formed by Portugal in the game based on what happened before the Islamic invasion of the Iberian peninsula (if you don't force what happened with ancient times).

Very few traces (if not almost none) of the Lusitanians, Visigoths or Suebi remained in Portuguese society, never that would be a decent justification.

If it is to force alternative history, the most correct would be a different version of the War of Castilian Succession where the Battle of Toro was won by the Portuguese/Beltraneja supporters or a focus where Miguel da Paz (son of Isabela de Aragão, the eldest daughter of Isabel of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon, and Manuel I of Portugal) had not died as a child.

So I understand a lot of people want to force alternate history into the game because it's fun, but please, let's be a little realistic with the game's time frame.
It's mostly because Castile and Leon did, in fact, use the idea of the Visigothic Kingdom as their claim to unite all the Peninsula.

Portugal never did such a thing, but It is assumed that should Portugal manage to get hold of the Castilian throne, the next logical step would be to dominate the peninsula, thus they would most likely try to come up with some similar claim in order to legitimize their rule.

But this alternate history should be based on tbe War of Castilian succession of course, nobody is saying otherwise, nobody is saying to add a Lusitanian or Suebian tag, people want a "Spain" tag based on what Spain would be if Portugal inherited Castile after the succession war. The discussion concerning pre-islamic history really has very little implications on the game mechanics itself and it's more of a discussion to understand what a Portuguese Spain would behave/identify as.
 
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Alright, i'm going to try to keep it shorter than before. Please don't take it personaly, some of the more off-topic issues expecially regarding the Lusitanians were not me trying to score "gotchas" and undermine your credibility but simply me finding excuses to rant about the Iron Age because it's my favourite period.

The "Condado Portucalense" is Portugal. It literally means County of Portugal and is no less Portugal than the Kingdom of Portugal.
Also, there are 12th century parchments detailing the CoAs of Europe and Portugal's CoA is literally an entierly blue shield, not even a cross.

The Condado Portucalense can be traced back to Vimara Peres in the 800's, and back there it was a blue cross on white. Pretty sure that in the 1200's it was also the same, but I cannot debate if both were in circulation or not.

Also Condado Portucalense and Portugal are 2 different things. Portugal is the whole kingdom, the Condado was just the northern part. By 1440 things were too different to even compare - dimension as well as the population inhabiting it.

Regarding the flag, the coat of arms had evolved A LOT. The only things that kept being used were the 5 blue shields with 5 white circles on each shield. Castles were added, as well as a red border and later a green fleur de lis.


@Sete showed evidences of blue being widely used in the Conquest of Ceuta 1415 as well as other instances in the 17th and 18th centuries.
You cannot claim it was foreign influence as the French in the 18th century used white until the Revolution, and Prussian Blue was literally only discovered in the early 18th century and adoped into Prussia's unoforms in the late 18th.

m14a.jpg

Picture 1: Departure to Ceuta, on Porto. Notice the troops behind Infante Henrique (on horse).

I don't know what sources he showed but a large amount of troops departed from Porto with blue, but thats that. Stating that the entire country's troops used blue, is bad pratice. Also Ceuta is a really bad example because everyone knows about Porto's sacrifice towards Ceuta's conquest. For instance, the city's dwellers are known today as Tripeiros because of that. The city dwellers got that name because of the food/meat provided to the army/fleet/invasion force, leaving the city with only offal/entrails (unsure which term is best in english). The city was also responsible for providing many (if not most) of the ships, I believe. Indeed, Porto's contribution to Ceuta's conquest is undeniable even today.

If you roll back a few decades to 1380, for instance, you will see the same sort of troops wearing plate with a cross of avis (green) or even a cross of st george on top, for instance, across multiple battles. Again, would be bad example to generalize a few order members for the army of the entire country.

Still, were to choose a colour based on Porto's colour, or the Order of Avis' colour, I would pick the Order's colour without thinking for once. The entire dynasty - is known as Avis - and added a green fleur de lis to the coat of arms - coat of arms that was in use till 1485, for about 100 years. Picking a single city's colour, though, would make little sense, since Portugal is much bigger and not 1 single city alone. The real power already emanated from Lisbon during the game's timeframe, anyway. Porto was only known for its loyalty.


I definitely need a source on those claim as the cross of christ with a green background was only adopted by the Braganza dynasty in the war of Restoration. Much later than what you seem to be implying.

These things "weren't adopted" by the Braganzas. When you start a civil war, or a war of restoration in this case, you don't have time or money to make irrelevant things like these. They were already in use by that time, and were kept. As I stated, these flags were usually seen flying on Feitorias for instance. They were military flags.

Part of the Personal Union with Castile/Spain involved a large degree of autonomy, on things like coin, or even flags. These things were eventually disrespected in great part, but in others, they remained fairly intact. Note that Green is highly associated with the House of Braganza, though.

I won't bother providing links, because some sites are more obscure than others, but you will find several. The uniforms of the Terços of Armada in 1616 themselves have green, so you cannot associate that solely with the Braganzas, since it was used decades before 1640 in the military.


But standardised uniforms were indeed used before ww1, at least since the restoration war, and in all of them, except the Restoration war itself, were mostly blue.

Standardized uniforms were indeed used, but only in WW1 was it blue across all ranks, and all (land) troop types. Probably the only ones that didn't use blue were the Fuzileiros (old ones), using a white / light grey in the early 1900s.

And as I stated, there were imense troops types across Portugal. Grenadiers, Cavalry, Line Infantry, Militia, Professional Terços, with many belonging to the Armada.

Also there were multiple military reforms being made, after the restoration war. Count of Schoemberg in 1660, Joao V's own reforms in early 1700, and Count's Lippe reforms in 1765 for example. Only Count's Lippe reforms implemented a general blue across all setors, but even in that case certain exceptions were made. Don't get me wrong, but I don't see why make a major change based on some reforms that only hapened in the game's final 70 years, specially considerating they were of foreign origin. Why not stick with the domestic ones implemented by Joao V instead, that pratically continued/improved an existing line?

Yes, that was the only conflict where that flag was used and Green was used, because Green was the Bragança Dynasty's personal colour, and this was first and foremost dynastic war between the Braganças and Habsburgs over Portugal..

No, this was a war of independence. Thus why the Braganzas enjoyed such a large popular support.

Note that at this point not even Prussia had adopted the Blue Uniforms neither had Prussian Blue been discovered yet.

I am no expert in Brandenburg-Prussia but I know that they already used blue-red in 1690 and definetely sooner than that. Thus why many of the uniforms in Portugal were blue and red. Indeed, the grenadiers used that colour since their creation, AFAIK. But changed later to white-red, probably during Joao V's reign, the Portuguese Sun-King, who reformed the military in 1707 or something.


Yes, it was adopted during the Restoration war, for dynastic reasons, and changed to this soon after.

In 1797, the royal colours shifted from green-white to red-blue. Only in 1797. In 1806 a royal decree changed unit/regimental flags to the one you speak of. So are we changing Portugal's colour based on the last 20 years-ingame? lol.

I have seen those exact same style uniforms (possibly the same artist even) for Portugal but were Blue. I believe they were posted in the Blue Portugal thread.
I'm not going to argue about this, you can move the discussion there if you want.

Don't need to, but only after 1765 did uniforms switch to blue and white. It was part of Count Lippe's reforms, widely known. Again, he was a foreigner, and only impacted the game's last 70 years or so. Shouldn't even be taken in consideration when making changes for almost 400 years.

Portugal in the Napoleonic wars used extensively blue uniforms, with the notable exception of the Caçadores regiments, which used neutral colours such as brown or green to blend better with the landscape, proto-camouflage so to speak.

Well, it will depend on your metrics, for instance, countless Portuguese soldiers joined the french and were seen fighting on Russia. The LLL (Loyal Lusitanian Legion), used the colours I showed. But I agree, blue was widely seen across the military in 1800. Sometimes red-blue, sometimes white-blue.


Strongly doubt any such influence was of any significance. The Lusitanians were landlocked and lived in the highlands, the closest Phoenician and Greek colonies were located in the non-Lusitanian lands of the Counei in modern Algarve.

Olissipo, Lisbon's earliest name, had a lot of greek influence. In fact, the entire story behind the foundation of Olissipo is tied with Odysseus/Ulysses voyages. And Olissipo was just next door to the lusitanians.

Then he would never be able to keep all of Iberia subjected.
Castile had 5x the Population of Portugal, do you think they would all just roll over and accept being subjugated?

The nobility is just a tiny fraction of a country's population. Portugal for instance kept its independence not due to the nobility, but due to the population always rallying behind the (to be) king.

As for subjugation, that is what hapened during the reconquista. Land was usually redistributed between loyal nobles, and not the unruly ones. The same hapened with the conquest of England by William the Conqueror for example. Most of the land was redistributed between Norman lords. In an hypothetical conquest of Castile by Portugal, the same would apply.

Unless a peaceful Personal Union was put in place, I don't see why the castilian nobles would keep their position. It is hilarious to think otherwise. Some exceptions are always made of course, but they were NOT the general rule.

As for the population accepting foreign rule - in almost all cases, they had no other way. The Andalusians had to accept christian rule, just like any other subjugated population. Even when the population was against foreign rule, things rarely changed. Antonio Crato's failed attempt at claiming the Portuguese throne after Dom Sebastiao's demise proves this, for example. Antonio had most of the people supporting him, but Portugal fell under Spanish influence.

Semantics.
Portugal was definitely stronger than Denmark or Switzerland, but relative to the rest of Europe it was far weaker than it had ever been (eu4 timeframe).
In the 1470's Portugal was annihilating the entire Castilian Atlantic fleet.
In 1580's the Portuguese Fleet (under Spanish command) destroyed the English fleet at Corunha, Lisbon and Azores and launched 3 invasions of the British Islands.
In the 1800's Portugal literally could not stop the French fleet from sailing up the Tagus and blockading Lisbon smh.
It went from waging an impressive global-spanning war against Spain and the Netherlands in the 1600's-1680's, and warding off joint Spanish-French invasions even while effectively bankrupt from the Earthquake in the 1760's... to buckling to humiliating French demands in 1807, still getting invaded, and fleeing to Brazil (couldnt even do it themselves, had the British escort the fleet) in by far the most pathetic chapter of Portuguese history, abandoning the entire country to be occupied without a fight, until the British intervened.

Also, as far as estimated GDP per capita was concerned, Portugal was literally the poorest country in Western Europe by 1800 with Spain as a close second (Unlike in 1500 and 1700 respectively when it was wealthier than Spain, Britain, and almost as wealthy as France.)

Well you have it figured out but it isn't as simple as that. For instance, regarding the GDP, things would almost always be against Portugal. It would be impossible to prevent European Competition in Asia in order to retain Portuguese monopolies in there, so obviously over time Portugal kept losing more and more money as England and the Dutch expanded their holdings in Asia. In the early 1700s, Portugal managed to remain a considerable power, but in great part thanks to the massive amounts of gold and other revenues gotten from Brazil. In 1760, less and less gold started coming from Brazil, and the Caribean Islands started to be a real nuisance in terms of sugar production for example. Mercantile power was still considerable, but it was no longer dominant since everyone else knew where the money was as well.

Small amount of population, meant less income from taxation, and Portugal could never compete with other great powers in that area. Russia for example could still be considered a Great Power despite being quite behind in technological advances, but that was in large part thanks to its massive population, being 2nd biggest in Europe after France. Quite similar to many countries present on the G20 today - many are poor countries, with the major part of the population being poor, but due to sheer amount of people they easily make it out as one of the world's greatest economies.

Also, the French navy in 1800 was the 2nd or 3rd strongest in the world, depending on metrics involved. The Brits themselves feared the French navy and in order to keep superiority they had to seize several fleets across Europe, for instance, the Dannish one. They actually pondered doing the same to the Portuguese fleet, since some feared we could give in to french pressure and that the Portuguese fleet could join the french fleet somehow. This, merely to state that being shameful of French superiority over Portuguese armed forces in 1800 should not even be a thing, with everything being taken in consideration. Indeed, the French were actually building more ships of the line per year than the British were, and would probably outnumber them if Napoleon had not been defeated.

Much worse was the fall of Spain to French armed forces. The entire country pratically collapsed under French invasion, something hard to imagine from a Great Power of the size of Spain, specially with its overseas territory and large amount of wealth being taken in consideration. Something that would only truly happen due to incompentence.

Tiny Portugal still managed to make Lisbon and its surroundings, impregnable to Napoleonic France, Napoleonic France that was unbeatable on land but unable to conquer a city belonging to someone as insignificant as Portugal. You can argue about how the Brits were behind it (lines of torres vedras), but I will state the same about the many Portuguese involved in the task. In fact, the English were just a tiny fraction of the taskforce behind it. There would be no way to devise, build and mantain such a project without the local population being entirely behind it.
 
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Also Condado Portucalense and Portugal are 2 different things. Portugal is the whole kingdom, the Condado was just the northern part
Uh, no, the whole kingdom of Portugal was just this.
Screenshot_2023-03-08-07-41-10-518_com.google.android.youtube.jpg

Or maybe it was all of this
Screenshot_2023-03-08-07-41-52-000_com.google.android.youtube.jpg


Do you see the flaw in that argument?
The kingdom of Portugal actually NEVER had the same borders as Portugal does today, so one could make the same argument that the Kingdom of Portugal is not the same thing as "Portugal" either.

There was a direct continuity between the Portuguese county to the Portuguese kingdom, both ethnic, linguistic, geographic and political.
The name difference was NOT existant, and is merely a modern construct of how you choose to translate the oficial latin name "Comitat Portugalesium" or "Regnum Portugalesium" to English/Modern Portuguese. In fact, the county was often in Galician-Portuguese documents of the time simply called "Portugalia" which many languages still call Portugal to this day.


As far as the colour of Portugal is concerned, im not even interested in continuing the discussion. We can try to cheerypick this instance and that instance and try to find a justification for why this works or that doesnt, at the end of the day, Portugal never had an "official national colour" so the whole debate will always be a matter of subjective opinion.
 
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Uh, no, the whole kingdom of Portugal was just this.
View attachment 954616
Or maybe it was all of this
View attachment 954617

Do you see the flaw in that argument?
The kingdom of Portugal actually NEVER had the same borders as Portugal does today, so one could make the same argument that the Kingdom of Portugal is not the same thing as "Portugal" either.

There was a direct continuity between the Portuguese county to the Portuguese kingdom, both ethnic, linguistic, geographic and political.
The name difference was NOT existant, and is merely a modern construct of how you choose to translate the oficial latin name "Comitat Portugalesium" or "Regnum Portugalesium" to English/Modern Portuguese. In fact, the county was often in Galician-Portuguese documents of the time simply called "Portugalia" which many languages still call Portugal to this day.


As far as the colour of Portugal is concerned, im not even interested in continuing the discussion. We can try to cheerypick this instance and that instance and try to find a justification for why this works or that doesnt, at the end of the day, Portugal never had an "official national colour" so the whole debate will always be a matter of subjective opinion.

I am sorry but you really have no clue in what you are saying. You are trying to debate something that is common knowledge, so I don't even see why I am trying to argue with you.

The Condado Portucalense was an entity subject in most of its history to either Kingdom of Galicia, or someone else. To say that the Condado Portucalense is Portugal, is almost like stating that the Grand Principality of Moscow is Russia.


This is an wiki article but pretty valid.

The Kingdom of Portugal was way more evolved than the Condado. You don't conquer half of the country to the Moors (muslim) and expect the population to be entirely the same as the northern christian part, for instance. Independence only made the gap between Castilian and Portuguese holdings greater - by 1440 the gap was much bigger than it was by 1100. Not just culturally or linguistic.

kw4X86r.png


This is an image that the kids learn at school on their 5th year of school. In 40 years of independence, Portugal had grown to almost the size it is today. Some further conquests or treaties with Castile fixed the rest of the borders eventually. By 1440, almost 300 years had passed, so obviously a lot had changed. To say that by 1440 Portugal was the same as the Condado Portucalense is just too wrong to even debate. I am not even refering to mere territorial changes, but what comes with it. By 1189 after reaching its (almost) maximum extent on the continent, the population must have doubled in size, with a lot of the conquered people being descendants of berbers and others (and most likely followers of islam), people that lived very differently from the people of the condado and that definetely left their mark.

The muslim population must had made a LARGE % of the population by 1189. This was not the case of the Condado, for instance. This mere fact has huge implications.

Lastly, I do not know where you are from, but many of the things being discussed in here are common knowledge in Portugal or inside certain Portuguese circles (military for example). You just have the wrong picture of most of them, unfortunately, so I really hope Paradox is not making changes based on those.

I have seen - and read - several works belonging to students finishing their degree somewhere on the military, and these students for instance speak about the military reforms and changes of uniforms based on real books, many which have pictures drawn by painters/writers of the time (which are rare, mind you). In many cases I have even seen parts of the original book in cause. So I know of what I speak.
 
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The Condado Portucalense was an entity subject in most of its history to either Kingdom of Galicia, or someone else
Yes it was a county of Galicia. Scotland is subject to the United Kingdom. Scotland is still a country.

Besides, using our modern notions of nation-state simply don't apply to medieval feudalism. When i say the Portuguese county was Portugal i mean from a broad political and ethnic perspective, namely the fact that the administrative entity called "Portugal" existed, and those living there were called "the Portuguese". The identity and idea of what Portugal consited remained exactly the same thing before and after Afonso I crowned himself king.

To say that the Condado Portucalense is Portugal, is almost like stating that the Grand Principality of Moscow is Russia.
If Russia was called "Moscowia" today, then yes, i would claim the Grand Principality of Moscow to be "Moscowia".
What about Austria? Is the Grand-Duchy of Austria NOT Austria? It wasn't a sovereign post-westphalian nation-state either but a constituent of the HRE.

The Kingdom of Portugal was way more evolved than the Condado
In the same way that the Kingdom of Portugal in 1700 was way more "evolved" than in 1300, what does this even mean?

You don't conquer half of the country to the Moors (muslim) and expect the population to be entirely the same as the northern christian part, for instance.
And they were all expelled or killed at least by 1609, possibly earlier by 1511.
So ironically, the population of the County of Portugal actually had far more in common with 17th-20th century Portugal, than the 12th-16th century kingdom did.

Independence only made the gap between Castilian and Portuguese holdings greater - by 1440 the gap was much bigger than it was by 1100.
I don't see what Castile has to do with this. If you had said Galicia, i would agree, as far as language as concerned, in the sense that there was NO difference in 1100 and SOME difference in 1440.

This is an image that the kids learn at school on their 5th year of school. In 40 years of independence, Portugal had grown to almost the size it is today.
It's also very simplified.
Afonso I didn't conquer anywhere near that much east into Leonese-claimed land. He went as far as badajoz, that map make it look like he went further than Merida.
He also conquered large parts of Galicia, which is not shown there.
But most importantly, he lost everything in Galicia and South of the Tagus after getting imprisoned at Badajoz.
Sancho I also only temporarily took over Silves in 1189, and it soon fell back into Almoravid hands.
But this is all meaningless. Had the Portuguese reconquista been finished by 1189, 1250 or 1492 the implications are the exact same: The Kingdom of Portugal began as only the North of the country, just as the County was.


By 1440, almost 300 years had passed, so obviously a lot had changed. To say that by 1440 Portugal was the same as the Condado Portucalense is just too wrong to even debate.
Again, a LOT had also changed from 1400 to 1700. Portugal in 1400 was not the same thing as in 1700 either.

with a lot of the conquered people being descendants of berbers and others (and most likely followers of islam), people that lived very differently from the people of the condado and that definetely left their mark.
A lot? Absolutely not.
The Berber population in Iberia was a fraction of the population, especially so in western Iberia. And even this small minority ended up being displaced during the policies repopulation carried out by king Sancho I and his successors. If that had not been enough, there were even further purges by King Manuel I and then again by Philip III.
These policies of replacement of the conquered lands were so successful, that there is absolutely no genetic distinction between North and South Portuguese today.
Same applies to Spain, with the genetic difference between populations being entirely West-East (mirroring the Kingdoms that led the reconquista to a surprisingly accurate degree), and not North-South as one would expect, because the Northern Christian kingdoms completely replaced the inhabitants of the South during this period. Galician-Portuguese did it in Alentejo/Algarve, Astur-Leonese to Extremadura, Castile to Andalucia/Murcia and the only exception being Valencia, which despite being conquered by Aragon, relates genetically to Castile rather than Catalonia or Aragon. Possibly due to the the later expulsions during the reign of Philip III, where they might have been replaced by Castilian settlers instead.

The muslim population must had made a LARGE % of the population by 1189.
Again, it literally didn't.
Berber/Arab populations were a tiny minority, and the majority of natives were either still Christian paying the Jizya or crypto-Christians who converted to avoid taxes and (probably) "gladly converted back when liberated".
There is very little evidence of any Islamic presence at all after the reconquest was done, as opposed to for example Jewish presence, which is very highly attested in many legal documents as well as physical ghettos to house them away from the Christian population in virtually every city. However the same cannot be said about Muslims, there were some ghettos in Lisbon but other than that, nothing that i know of.
In Castile and Aragon where the Muslim populations were much more significant (Still, the highest estimates are 33% in the Kingdom of Valencia, still not even the majority) this presence was definitely felt, with several revolts and harsher attempts at cracking down and getting rid of them. Unsurprisingly, this did not happen in Portugal.
 
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In the same way that the Kingdom of Portugal in 1700 was way more "evolved" than in 1300, what does this even mean?

The language was/is subject to evolution, and so was/is the culture, after all the cultural exchanges with others. Even on the simplest of things. Certain events cause a bigger evolution than others.

The condado was an homogenous group (more or less) highly tied with the kingdom it belonged to. If we go as back as 900, what was spoken by the nobility in the Condado was probably exactly the same being spoken in the courts of Asturias/Leon, with no local variants being included. Vimara Peres, and his descendants, were after all, nobles belonging to the Asturian Nobility and with direct ties with the asturian royalty. Porto and the region around the Douro / Duero was for most of the time, prior to christian reconquest, known as the "Desert of Douro". Conquest, and loss of territory, by either christian or moors in this region was common, and with all the devastation taking place no one wanted to live in these places. Thus the name of "Desert". Vimara Peres populated (after conquering) much of the region and even founded what became known as "Guimaraes" - the cradle of Portugal. Obviously, one can say that the Condado at this time shared a lot in common with the realm it belonged to.

When the Kingdom was founded - and when the realm's southern most posession was in the Tejo / Tagus river, It probably still did, since the core of its population and power was still vastly in the north. After the conquest of the rest of the country however, things definetely did change and you cannot even try to make a comparison to centuries before.

You are pratically saying that the Duchy of Normandy remained the same after the Norman conquest of England. Not only did power shift to London, but a lot of things changed and would change even more over time for both Normans (specially those moving into England) and Anglosaxons. I am not even speaking of the geopolitics involved, but if we do, the Normans stopped being just another subject, to see their previous overlord as a new potential new enemy. In many ways the same applies to Portugal and the Condado Portucalense. You cannot deny the changes the conquest of the rest of the country caused to the kingdom, specially since most of the conquered regions had vast portions of the population following the islamic faith.

On a side note: Sancho I, the 2nd king of Portugal, became known as the "Povoador" or in english, the Populator.

What do I want to say with this? It is simple. Sancho I founded a lot of new towns, and brought in a lot of foreigners, specially french speakers from Burgundy or Flanders. This also had certain implications and is just another factor to show the differences (and evolution) from the Condado of old. The Kingdom had a lot of people from different places. This influx of different peoples definetely left their mark and helped in making the gap that already existed between Portugal and other Iberian realms even bigger.

And they were all expelled or killed at least by 1609, possibly earlier by 1511.
So ironically, the population of the County of Portugal actually had far more in common with 17th-20th century Portugal, than the 12th-16th century kingdom did.

The muslim population of what became known as Portugal, was highly "iberized" and therefore was not subject to the same persecution or expulsion that hapened in Castile/Aragon. Definetely not in the same proportion or numbers.

https://pt-m-wikipedia-org.translat...uto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-PT&_x_tr_pto=wapp

A wikipedia article that will explain everything very well.


I don't see what Castile has to do with this. If you had said Galicia, i would agree, as far as language as concerned, in the sense that there was NO difference in 1100 and SOME difference in 1440.

When I refer to Castille, I always refer to either Castile, or even Leon (sometimes even to Asturias), the kingdoms themselves. Galicia, as kingdom, had very brief moments of independence, therefore not even worth of mentioning. Galicia was, after all, most of the time just another title in the pocket of a bigger iberian kingdom and not independent.

And... There was always some difference, no matter how small it was. Just try to think for yourself. If the people were exactly the same, why would they want independence? Again, we are not speaking of Feudal lords wanting to break with their overlord in an hungry bid for power.
Even during the days of Vimara's descendants, there was quite a fine difference between Castilians and inhabitants of the Condado Portucalense.

It's also very simplified.
Afonso I didn't conquer anywhere near that much east into Leonese-claimed land. He went as far as badajoz, that map make it look like he went further than Merida.
He also conquered large parts of Galicia, which is not shown there.
But most importantly, he lost everything in Galicia and South of the Tagus after getting imprisoned at Badajoz.
Sancho I also only temporarily took over Silves in 1189, and it soon fell back into Almoravid hands.
But this is all meaningless. Had the Portuguese reconquista been finished by 1189, 1250 or 1492 the implications are the exact same: The Kingdom of Portugal began as only the North of the country, just as the County was.

It is simplified but it is correct either way. The map does not speak of territorial losses either - it merely shows a map back based on a precise year. In that, it is correct.


A lot? Absolutely not.
The Berber population in Iberia was a fraction of the population, especially so in western Iberia. And even this small minority ended up being displaced during the policies repopulation carried out by king Sancho I and his successors. If that had not been enough, there were even further purges by King Manuel I and then again by Philip III.
These policies of replacement of the conquered lands were so successful, that there is absolutely no genetic distinction between North and South Portuguese today.
Same applies to Spain, with the genetic difference between populations being entirely West-East (mirroring the Kingdoms that led the reconquista to a surprisingly accurate degree), and not North-South as one would expect, because the Northern Christian kingdoms completely replaced the inhabitants of the South during this period. Galician-Portuguese did it in Alentejo/Algarve, Astur-Leonese to Extremadura, Castile to Andalucia/Murcia and the only exception being Valencia, which despite being conquered by Aragon, relates genetically to Castile rather than Catalonia or Aragon. Possibly due to the the later expulsions during the reign of Philip III, where they might have been replaced by Castilian settlers instead.

You are wrong. I have read multiple studies about DNA, for instance, and the North of modern Portugal has more Germanic DNA, up to 10% than the rest of Iberia. Most pockets outside of Northern Portugal (even on Spain) only have 5%, and most of the country only has 2% or less. But then again, these things are hard to categorize, because there is no German DNA for instance. But one can get a picture based on some numbers.

Similarly, if you stated that an inhabitant of Lisbon, is the same as an inhabitant of Porto, or from Alentejo, either one of those inhabitants would laugh at you. And if today the differences are definetely present, back then they would only be even larger, specially right after conquest. Assimilation does take time.

Large portions of Berbers did cross the straits and settled in the Western side of the peninsula, probably in larger numbers than elsewhere. In Portugal, most people have somewhere between 3% or 11% of "Berber blood", depending on the region we are speaking.

Again, it literally didn't.
Berber/Arab populations were a tiny minority, and the majority of natives were either still Christian paying the Jizya or crypto-Christians who converted to avoid taxes and (probably) "gladly converted back when liberated".
There is very little evidence of any Islamic presence at all after the reconquest was done, as opposed to for example Jewish presence, which is very highly attested in many legal documents as well as physical ghettos to house them away from the Christian population in virtually every city. However the same cannot be said about Muslims, there were some ghettos in Lisbon but other than that, nothing that i know of.
In Castile and Aragon where the Muslim populations were much more significant (Still, the highest estimates are 33% in the Kingdom of Valencia, still not even the majority) this presence was definitely felt, with several revolts and harsher attempts at cracking down and getting rid of them. Unsurprisingly, this did not happen in Portugal.

So you are stating that since 711 and till 1200 barely anyone even converted to islam?

In North Africa, barely anyone was even christian by 1110, in parts that were conquered almost at the same time or a couple of decades before Iberia. I am not stating that the same applied to iberia, but to say that barely anyone even converted to islam in Iberia is also equally wrong.

Again, I recommend you to read the wiki article about Moors:

https://pt-m-wikipedia-org.translat...uto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-PT&_x_tr_pto=wapp

It states exactly the contrary of what you insinuate. Specially in regards to conversion.
 
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The condado was an homogenous group
Up to 2019 Portugal has always been one of the most homogenous countries in the world, what's even your point?

If we go as back as 900, what was spoken by the nobility in the Condado was probably exactly the same being spoken in the courts of Asturias/Leon
It was Galician, same as what was spoken in Galicia, which was the first Iberian language to diverge from latin somewhere in the 8th-9th centuries.

Vimara Peres populated (after conquering) much of the region and even founded what became known as "Guimaraes" - the cradle of Portugal.
He didn't found Guimarães, Mumadona Dias did in the 10th century.
Guimarães didn't even exist by the foundation of Portugal, neither was it it's capital by the time of the Kingdom's independence.
"The craddle of Portugal" is a publicity stunt to milk the image of the first king being from there.

You are pratically saying that the Duchy of Normandy remained the same after the Norman conquest of England.
Not even remotely comparable.

the Normans stopped being just another subject, to see their previous overlord as a new potential new enemy.
The Portuguese county rebelled against their overlords twice, with Nuno Mendes and Afonso Henriques . In both cases it streched no further south than Coimbra, so you absolutely cannot make the claim it was a different identity acquired from conquering different lands.

specially since most of the conquered regions had vast portions of the population following the islamic faith.
Which were all killed, expelled or assimilated almost immediately. This is a non-isse. Portugal NEVER had a significant majority muslim population for any significant period of time.

founded a lot of new towns, and brought in a lot of foreigners, specially french speakers from Burgundy or Flanders.
Yes, exactly, he founded a lot of towns, but he populated them with Portuguese settlers, from the North.
This "Burgundy and Flanders" idea is a very overblown talking point i often see around with no sources to back it up other than the fact that Count Henry was from Burgundy and the Crusaders who helped Reconquering Lisbon were mostly from the Flanders, then people know of the process of the "repopulation" and thus connect the dots and seem to extrapolate this must have meant there was some unique special migratory flow between these regions and Portugal.
The South of Portugal is genetically identical to the North, starting with Sancho I, the North almost completely replaced the south. (Same happened in the rest of Iberia). There are no weird enclaves of Northwest/Central European admixture in central-southern Portugal. So even if there was some migration, it was absolutely inconsequential. The little admixture from such areas of Europe in Portugal is found in the North, and this is far more likely a result of the Suebian kingdom, as Galicia has it in even higher amounts.
The Iberian peninsula lost a borderline cataclysmic amount of population between 1000 (equal to France) and 1500 (1/5 of France). Implying there was far more "going out" than "going in".

This influx of different peoples definetely left their mark and helped in making the gap that already existed between Portugal and other Iberian realms even bigger.
Portugal was far more homogenous than any other Iberian kingdom (except Navarra, but nobody in Europe beats Navarra in that regard). This is simply non-sense.

The muslim population of what became Portugal, was highly "iberized"
You misunderstand what it says.
It's discussing the 16th-17th Spanish expulsions. By that time yes the muslim population of Portugal was non-existant. The Portuguese finished the reconquista much earlier than Castile, and "Iberized" it's territory much earlier on.
It's simply absurd to even attempt to defend that Muslims in the west would simply "iberize" themselves before getting conquered.

When I refer to Castille, I always refer to either Castile, or even Leon (sometimes even to Asturias), the kingdoms themselves. Galicia, as kingdom, had very brief moments of independence, therefore not even worth of mentioning
Understand this:
Portugal was ALWAYS a county of Galicia.
Portugal was NEVER a county of Leon or Castile.

It doesnt matter how long or how often Galicia was independent, Portugal remained as a county of Galicia from 868 to 1139.
Whenever Portugal was a vassal of a King of Leon or Castile, it was indirectly due to the fact such kings at that point were also Kings of Galicia.

Galicia was, after all, most of the time just another title in the pocket of a bigger iberian kingdom and not independent.
Galicia was actually the largest Christian Kingdom until Portugal broke free from it.

If the people were exactly the same, why would they want independence?
Welcome to the medieval period.

Even during the days of Vimara's descendants, there was quite a fine difference between Castilians and inhabitants of the Condado Portucalense.
Absolutely, i never said otherwise. I said there was no difference in comparison with Galicians.

I have read multiple studies about DNA, for instance, and the North of modern Portugal has more Germanic DNA, up to 10% than the rest of Iberia. Most pockets outside of Northern Portugal (even on Spain) only have 5%, and most of the country only has 2% or less.
If you want to argue genetics (which i wouldnt advise because the moderation is unhinged when it comes to such topics) then first you must understand the difference between Autossomal DNA or Y/M haplogroups.

As far as Autossomal DNA is concerned, concepts such as "Germanic DNA" are meaningless. The genetic diversity of Europe mostly dates back to the early Bronze age and its comprised of essentially 3 groups, which i will simplistically name: Hunter-Gatherers, Farmers and Herders.
The Iberian peninsula draws it's DNA mostly from the Farmers (50%-60%), just like all of Southern Europe from France to Romania. But all of Europe has a significant percentage of this group, as it was by far the most impactful overall.

The second largest component, Herders, is mostly common in Northern Europe, in the Iberian peninsula it's most common in the Northwest (40% at most), and then becomes progressively rarer in the Southeast (20% at least)

The third component, Hunter-Gatherer, is the rarest (<10% in most places) and most diverse, with several subgrups, because it's also the oldest. This is found mostly in the Baltic countries, with different subgrups scattered around Western Europe, the most significant pocket being the Basque country, which has about 25% the most in all of Western Europe.

With that said, you are probably more familiar with Y-cromossome haplogrops, which merely represent paternal lineages and cannot be used to affirm genetic affinity. In that case there is a significant Germanic component in Galicia, highest in the entire peninsula, and Northern Portugal to a smaller extent (very likely due to the Suebian migrations). Northern Catalonia also has some of this, possibly a remaint from the Occitans who colonised the region.

Large portions of Berbers did cross the straits and settled in the Western side of the peninsula, probably in larger numbers than elsewhere. In Portugal, most people have somewhere between 3% or 11% of "Berber blood", depending on the region we are speaking.
This is objectively false and a product of disingenuous and sensasionalistic (possibly politically-driven) journalism.

The data is again, related to Y-cromossomes, which for anyone with 7th grade biology should know means basically nothing for your phenotype, other than defining sex. And is only used in genetic studies because it remains intact from father to son, so it's the only (there's the mitocondrial one too which passes mother to children) reliable way to study direct ancestry.

So the facts are that the Portuguese do share circa 10% of such with North Africans.

However trying to connect such ancestry to Moors is simply non-sense.

Do you know which other peoples in Iberia have this lineage in largest amounts? Galicians and Asturians, two peoples who were never even touched by the Moors (Asturians technically were for 2 years before Pelayo rebelled, but this is not significant).

Futhermore, studies on Roman and pre-roman individuals already shows a similar ancestral pattern.

What is far more likely, is that such lineage dates back to the Megalithic culture (the guys who built Stonehenge) these people probably came from Northern Morocco and settled in almost the entirety of the Atlantic coast of Europe, bringing this lineage with them. If you look at the map of the Neolithic culture and of the so called "African Admixture" it correlates almost flawlessly.

Among these "African" subclades however one such subclade that seems to indeed be brought by the Moors, however it also follows an irrational pattern peaking in Cantabria (which like Asturias, was only occupied by 2 years at most) and then spreading across Castile-Leon, Extremadura and Algarve. With North-Eastern Portugal having none of it.

As far as i know there isn't really any acceptable explanation for this, and it seems to be simply a matter or either poor/biased testing or simply a result of chance and posterior migrations.
 
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Are the changes to Holy Orders going to include a way to revoke them and switch to a different one?

If not, they risk being no more immersive than the original options for Holy Orders, that being a one-off click and that's done for the rest of the game.

Why would I want permanent missionary strength in a region? After I convert the provinces, I'd much rather have an option to pick another bonus for a set price.
Not in 1.35, although it's something that we're internally evaluating for a future update.
My point here is more Paradox managing the expectations, people are asking for Portugal new missions, redesign of the already existing missions, new naval units, goods produce modifiers, new provinces, switching goods in the provinces that Portugal have, events, etc and that seems impossible for a country that isn't going to be in the center of the update.

For me is better having a situation were Paradox says "OK, we are going to change this, this and this in Portugal, please people give some ideas" instead of "Give some ideas for Portugal people" and the comunity asking for new content that Paradox don't have intention in alocate in this DLC because they aren't testing in this moment.
I get it, and yes i agree the community should manage expectations.

I think what is happening is that people are giving suggestions on all things that could be improved (because like you correctly pointed out, we don't know what exactly is on the table to be changed), in the hopes that at least some of the points get addressed.
Just to add that Tinto team has been very accommodating to Portugal players feedback since they took charge, and for that alone they have my utmost appreciation. Hopefully our feedback can be usefull for whatever changes they have in store for us ;)
Well, at the end of the day, we implemented some new content and changes for Portugal, right? ;)
What will be the triggers of "Mediterranean Ambitions"?
Mediterranean Ambitions.jpg

Need a comprehensive list of impacted nations for this patch so I can avoid playing as them until the update. :)
Basically, do not play with any Great Power. :D
@Pavía Do i still need the land ofPortugal to full fill the mission Recover Portugal, because personally i would like to have two ways to full fill it one by conquering and 2 by having really good relations with them where both Portugal and Spain/Castille get a smal bonus. I would really like to play a game with Portugal as my friend and not as my enemy.
Yes, we fixed the mission to make it possible to complete by having Portugal as a vassal.
Awesome stuff! Would really love to see some content for Granada / Andalusia as well.
Not for 1.35, unfortunately, although we'll see if we can add something more in a future update!
 
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Well, at the end of the day, we implemented some new content and changes for Portugal, right?
Yes, although you have also stated many times that you are still revising and reworking some things about it.
So i'm still both hopeful and fearful, that something might change for better or for worse.
I'm overall hyped and optimistic, but i'm saving by final judgment for when i see the final result ;)
 
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Well, at the end of the day, we implemented some new content and changes for Portugal, right? ;)

Yes, although you have also stated many times that you are still revising and reworking some things about it.
So i'm still both hopeful and fearful, that something might change for better or for worse.
I'm overall hyped and optimistic, but i'm saving by final judgment for when i see the final result ;)
I'm sure it's gonna be fine. I don't expect any major changes tho, but I'm indeed curious about what's in the bag.
 
Now let’s move on to see what the new mission tree for Castile and then Spain looks like:

View attachment 949279
Note: As usual, the design and art of the tree are not final.
@Pavía can you PLEASE make it so that you don't have to PU Portugal to progress into the Austrian/Lowlands missions? I really don't like to PU Portugal as Spain, since (apart from the historical roleplay reasons) when they're my subject they colonize random provinces inside my Colonial Regions that I've claimed with Treaty of Tordesillas, leading to some REALLY disgusting border gore (I even made a forum post about it)

would really appreciate it
 
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I hope the Native American tags receive an update in a future DLC, with all these buffs to the colonizers they'll be outmatched even worse =(
Some missions with good rewards, formables, Government Reforms, permanent modifiers, monuments.

Still I can't wait to play this DLC, Spain will be my first run!
 
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Spain should keep its Artillery fire modifier but not as a tradition in my opinion. It should be in their last national idea or ambition. It buffs Spanish army and armada at the same time perhaps it could be nerfed to 0.5 to give a chance to Maghrebi nations. Speaking of them I can't think of a scenario them surviving after all these updates to the Iberians. We will probably see AI Spain unchallenged and dominating the game more often without a touch to them.
Also I predicted Great Britain is getting new content and I think we might see something new for Prussia as their color finally changed.
I think it's okay as a tradition because when you form Spain you are at tech 10 and already conquered or PU Aragon so if by that point the Maghrebi nations haven't dealt with them it's too late already. Usually Tunis ally the Ottomans and that would stop Spain in north Africa as it happened historically.
 
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Up to 2019 Portugal has always been one of the most homogenous countries in the world, what's even your point?

If you had stated 1974 or 1973, perhaps we could argue, but I am left totally clueless why you even point 2019. Pre-1974 the vast amount of the population was caucasian and you rarely saw foreigners or even non-caucasians from the colonies. After the 25th of April Revolution, everyone could travel freely and a lot of Africans for instance came. Nowadays with the large amount of the graduated (native) people migrating to richer countries (Germany, Switzerland, France, England) and with the vacuum being filled with Indians, Africans and Brazilians, the country is no longer as homogenous, but this has being going on for a few decades already and did not happen in 2019.

The point I was trying to make was an obvious one - that the Condado was an homogenous group. Pratically only christians and native people. By native I am refering to the descendants of the people that was inhabiting these lands pre-muslim invasion of Iberia. When Portugal was formed - and expanded/was recognized outside, it had grown by a lot in terms of territory, and a lot of the people inhabiting these lands were followers of the islamic faith, jews, or even total foreigners - like the Berbers previously spoken of. So obviously, Portugal in 1168 for example was not homogenous, or at least as homogenous as the Condado.

He didn't found Guimarães, Mumadona Dias did in the 10th century.
Guimarães didn't even exist by the foundation of Portugal, neither was it it's capital by the time of the Kingdom's independence.
"The craddle of Portugal" is a publicity stunt to milk the image of the first king being from there.

See, this is one of the things I am not even going to debate with you. Guimaraes was founded by Vimara Peres, thus the name of the city (Guimaraes evolved from Vimaraes). Wikipedia states "Vimaranis which later became Guimaranis" but I question these sources. Either way the fact remains true - that Vimara Peres was the founder.

Mumadona Dias only founded the Castle. If you tried to debate this with anyone knowing a bit of Portuguese history, probably he wouldn't know the name of the city's founder, but he would know that the city was founded before Portugal. Again I do not know where you are from, but you should not even try to say these things if you have absolutely no clue about what you are speaking about.


The Portuguese county rebelled against their overlords twice, with Nuno Mendes and Afonso Henriques . In both cases it streched no further south than Coimbra, so you absolutely cannot make the claim it was a different identity acquired from conquering different lands.

I could, although I was not exactly trying to. But you see - Castilian recognition of Portuguese Independence only came much later, and so did the Pope's recognition of Portugal as a Kingdom. In the last case (pope recognition), the Kingdom had already gotten past the Tejo (Tagus) river. In case you do not know, Coimbra is much more to the North of the Tejo.

Which were all killed, expelled or assimilated almost immediately. This is a non-isse. Portugal NEVER had a significant majority muslim population for any significant period of time.

Lisbon alone had over 10.000 inhabitants when it was conquered (and note, I am not just speaking about Lisbon but all of the conquered land). Now let us suppose you are right, and everyone was killed or expelled. Why have we never heard of any mass exodus or any mass killing taking place in Portugal? Because... It never happened? I mean, how could you even hide such a fact, in Castile the same took place and everyone, both near and far heard of it.

Assimilation, yes, we can debate that, but assimilation takes time. Many convert just to please their overlords and in order to gain something from it (certain positions in certain realms for instance are limited to people of a determined faith), but this is obviously not the general rule. As stated previously, North Africa was mostly christian when the Arabs invaded - in 1100 there was barely any pocket of christianity present. The process of convertion was long, but it did happen. You cannot live in the fantasy that everyone will remain true to their original faith. Well, you COULD, but anyone knowing a bit of history (and of different historical events like arab expansion) will disagree.

Yes, exactly, he founded a lot of towns, but he populated them with Portuguese settlers, from the North.

Well then, then the population must had been more busy breeding than actually doing anything else!

Seriously speaking, I am from Portugal and from a place near Vila Franca de Xira - Vila Franca meaning in English, Frank Town. Now we could debate who the Franks were, since it was widely used to describe even Crusaders, and this was probably the case as well. No one can agree at all, but a lot of knights settled in the place (after Lisbon was taken), and since everyone was free of taxes or tolls, it was a place of fairs as well.

The earlier kings at least were pretty generous when trying to invite foreigners to settle inside our borders. I don't know what makes it so hard for you to believe in it. Regardless, it is a fact. I don't know the numbers, both real ones or the ones you have, but they change little since the facts remain facts.

I mean, Portuguese (spoken language) in Madeira, or Portuguese in Alentejo, is spoken (sounds), differently, than "normal" Portuguese. The reason is obvious - these regions were either subject to migration and/or were isolated. Specially Alentejo for the topic at hand - countless places in Alentejo are named after French Towns - Nisa (after Nice) Tolosa (after Toulouse), montalvao (after Montalban), Proença (after Provence), Arez (after Arles), Tolões (after Toulons), etc.

... Maybe these "Portuguese" from the North liked the names of certain French settlements? Who knows! Now, be my guest, and tell me why! (lol)

Portugal was ALWAYS a county of Galicia.
Portugal was NEVER a county of Leon or Castile.
It doesnt matter how long or how often Galicia was independent, Portugal remained as a county of Galicia from 868 to 1139.
Whenever Portugal was a vassal of a King of Leon or Castile, it was indirectly due to the fact such kings at that point were also Kings of Galicia.

Understand this:

1º Portugal as a name never existed before Afonso Henriques and one could argue - even before the Treaty of Zamora. Before it was always Condado Portucalense. This last name came from Portus Cale, name of the city that became Porto. These are intertwined but lets not confuse each other. Also, "county" is relative - Condado does mean County, but this Condado included multiple counties (county of Coimbra for instance), and many of its rulers used the title of Dux, Regina, Princeps or Comite.

2º I never said that Portugal was a county of Castile. I cannot classify multiple Kingdoms, in 1 word. I mean, you have no word for the aglomeration of the Kingdom of Castile + Leon + Galicia. But since Castile was usually the predominant one, I prefer to refer to "Castilians" or "Castile". Which is somewhat wrong, since at this time I believe Leon was the strongest part.

3º Condado Portucalense was part of the kingdom ruled by the King of Castile+Leon+Galicia, and some might even argue that it only stopped being so after the Treaty of Zamora signed in 1143. I mean, why are we even discussing this? Irrelevant details... The Kingdom of Castile, Leon and Galicia, at this time were so closely tied together, that it is pratically irrelevant which one you speak of. Sometimes one or another was independent, but very briefly, so briefly, that it never caused a difference. And even independent, the Kingdom of Leon and Castile were pratically the same, culturally, linguistically, and in everything else. Galicia might have been somewhat different, but is vastly irrelevant since they never retained any degree of autonomy, except probably with one or another king, like Garcia II, kings that did not even rule for 10 years straight. The court, the power, and everything culturally related, emanated from Leon, or Castile. A few years, in countless centuries, are largely irrelevant.

You misunderstand what it says.
It's discussing the 16th-17th Spanish expulsions. By that time yes the muslim population of Portugal was non-existant. The Portuguese finished the reconquista much earlier than Castile, and "Iberized" it's territory much earlier on.
It's simply absurd to even attempt to defend that Muslims in the west would simply "iberize" themselves before getting conquered.

Algarve, and the Portuguese reconquista was done in 1249 if memory serves. You were stating that the moorish were expelled or killed in 1609. I am telling you, that they were assimilated, just like the Caliphate of Cordoba had done previously to the christian population. I don't even understand why you find something so absurd, absurd. I never said that they would iberize before getting conquered?

Galicia was actually the largest Christian Kingdom until Portugal broke free from it.

Bigger not always means larger in territority. When speaking about power and influence for example, size of territory is in many cases irrelevant. The power, court and capital were always located inside the Kingdom of Castile or Leon, for a reason.


If you want to argue genetics (which i wouldnt advise because the moderation is unhinged when it comes to such topics) then first you must understand the difference between Autossomal DNA or Y/M haplogroups.

As far as Autossomal DNA is concerned, concepts such as "Germanic DNA" are meaningless. The genetic diversity of Europe mostly dates back to the early Bronze age and its comprised of essentially 3 groups, which i will simplistically name: Hunter-Gatherers, Farmers and Herders.
The Iberian peninsula draws it's DNA mostly from the Farmers (50%-60%), just like all of Southern Europe from France to Romania. But all of Europe has a significant percentage of this group, as it was by far the most impactful overall.

The second largest component, Herders, is mostly common in Northern Europe, in the Iberian peninsula it's most common in the Northwest (40% at most), and then becomes progressively rarer in the Southeast (20% at least)

The third component, Hunter-Gatherer, is the rarest (<10% in most places) and most diverse, with several subgrups, because it's also the oldest. This is found mostly in the Baltic countries, with different subgrups scattered around Western Europe, the most significant pocket being the Basque country, which has about 25% the most in all of Western Europe.

With that said, you are probably more familiar with Y-cromossome haplogrops, which merely represent paternal lineages and cannot be used to affirm genetic affinity. In that case there is a significant Germanic component in Galicia, highest in the entire peninsula, and Northern Portugal to a smaller extent (very likely due to the Suebian migrations). Northern Catalonia also has some of this, possibly a remaint from the Occitans who colonised the region.

Well I can't remember the studies that I have read, but I found it interesting that even Catalonia (the biggest pocket of 'germanic DNA' in Spain), was only half as strong as in Northern Portugal.



This is objectively false and a product of disingenuous and sensasionalistic (possibly politically-driven) journalism.

The data is again, related to Y-cromossomes, which for anyone with 7th grade biology should know means basically nothing for your phenotype, other than defining sex. And is only used in genetic studies because it remains intact from father to son, so it's the only (there's the mitocondrial one too which passes mother to children) reliable way to study direct ancestry.

So the facts are that the Portuguese do share circa 10% of such with North Africans.

However trying to connect such ancestry to Moors is simply non-sense.

Do you know which other peoples in Iberia have this lineage in largest amounts? Galicians and Asturians, two peoples who were never even touched by the Moors (Asturians technically were for 2 years before Pelayo rebelled, but this is not significant).

Futhermore, studies on Roman and pre-roman individuals already shows a similar ancestral pattern.

What is far more likely, is that such lineage dates back to the Megalithic culture (the guys who built Stonehenge) these people probably came from Northern Morocco and settled in almost the entirety of the Atlantic coast of Europe, bringing this lineage with them. If you look at the map of the Neolithic culture and of the so called "African Admixture" it correlates almost flawlessly.

Among these "African" subclades however one such subclade that seems to indeed be brought by the Moors, however it also follows an irrational pattern peaking in Cantabria (which like Asturias, was only occupied by 2 years at most) and then spreading across Castile-Leon, Extremadura and Algarve. With North-Eastern Portugal having none of it.

As far as i know there isn't really any acceptable explanation for this, and it seems to be simply a matter or either poor/biased testing or simply a result of chance and posterior migrations.

As I stated things earlier and before all of this lengthy chat, I did say that DNA was hard to categorize. There is no "Berber DNA". But the only cromossome that is present in Berbers and Iberians (and probably south italians I can't remember), is heavily predominant in west iberia.

I agree, even before the Romans came, a lot of the DNA was already present due to migration of North Africans into Iberia, but it only could get higher due to the influx of berbers into west Iberia.

During the time of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Jews comprised about ten percent of the population - little more numerous than the Arabs and about equal in numbers to the Berbers. Mérida, right next to Portugal, for instance, was a major berber stronghold. All of these are known facts. I mean, 10% might seem tiny to you but in the end - its a lot of people, specially for a realm of the size (and with the population) of the Caliphate of Cordoba.

I mean, most of the army that conquered Visigothic Hispania was made of Berbers, and the Caliphate constantly kept promoting Berbers in their government or tried to incentivate migration in order to strengthen their own power. I don't even get why we are debating known things or tiny little details if the main thing being disucussed remains.

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The 2nd and 3rd Portuguese sprite included in the old unit pack is much more historical accurate than the new (current) ones, and I wonder why...

Also, still wondering why the 1st sprite uses a Morion helmet, since these were only used after 1550. I also do not know where the hat of the 4th sprite comes from.
 
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Great - except the Jesuits aren't monastic, but they don't fit the other two categories so oh well, fair enough.
 
If you had stated 1974 or 1973, perhaps we could argue, but I am left totally clueless why you even point 2019.
The population of Portugal has remained steadily >98% Portuguese all the way from 1974 to 2016 until it began dropping a digit a year on average from 2016 onwards.
I chose 2019 because it was the inflection point when the influx was greatest, but the sharp increase began in 2016. not "decades ago".

After the 25th of April Revolution, everyone could travel freely and a lot of Africans for instance came.
Not true.
The Portuguese citizens who were living in the colonies were expelled and returned. They were Portuguese, not Africans.

the country is no longer as homogenous, but this has being going on for a few decades already and did not happen in 2019
Again, it has only been going on since 2016.
It was insignificant before then, Portugal was the most homogenous country in Western Europe by 2015.

So obviously, Portugal in 1168 for example was not homogenous, or at least as homogenous as the Condado
The only reason why we are even discussing demographics in the first place is because you brought up the point that the Portuguese county was not Portugal became it had a different ethnic make-up.
And yet here you are saying that the Portuguese county was homogenous, which is just like Portugal has been for most of it's history, and only in the early kingdom it was not homogenous because it just conquered new lands from moors..
You are literally implying that the Portuguese county was EVEN MORE PORTUGAL, than the Kingdom was.
You are arguing against yourself.

Besides, it's not like any of this actually matters anyway.


Why have we never heard of any mass exodus or any mass killing taking place in Portugal?
Except we literally have.
In the 12th century, 16th century and then again in the 17th.

I mean, how could you even hide such a fact, in Castile the same took place and everyone, both near and far heard of it.
Because Spain is famous and nobody cares about Portugal.
When Castile did it after conquering Granada, Manuel I did it as well a few years later.
And when Spain did it again under the Habsburgs, Portugal was also under their domain and so they did it in Portugal as well.

Well then, then the population must had been more busy breeding than actually doing anything else!

Seriously speaking, I am from Portugal and from a place near Vila Franca de Xira
I don't care about your anecdotes, i'm discussing measurable scientific data.
There is no genetic difference between North and South Portugal whatsoever, in fact, there isn't even any significant genetic difference between Portugal and Galicia.
The North completely replaced the South.
This is not just a Portuguese phenomenon, it happens in Spain as well, the genetic proximity in Spain follows almost exactly the same patterns of the reconquista kingdoms, it is evidently clear there was massive replacement of the south by the Northern kingdoms creating this unusual pattern.


Algarve, and the Portuguese reconquista was done in 1249 if memory serves. You were stating that the moorish were expelled or killed in 1609
There were multiple times of expulsions.

Bigger not always means larger in territority. When speaking about power and influence for example, size of territory is in many cases irrelevant. The power, court and capital were always located inside the Kingdom of Castile or Leon, for a reason.
Galicia was the most densely populated,also the court, capital and political power switched places many times, we need to be specific. (Not like it matters either).
 
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