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Dev Diary #115 - Monumental Foundations

Hello and welcome to this dev diary where we will be looking into some new map visuals that’ll be added in the future. As the team grows, we’ve had the opportunity for our new artists to warm up by sprucing up the map a little. Among the things we’ll show off today, chief is the Canterbury Cathedral and its evolution over time: made by our new Environment artist Joel, who’s written about his process and the research involved.

Building a Monument – Canterbury Cathedral​

The Original Church - Tier 1​

When creating the first tier of the Canterbury Cathedral, which references the Anglo-Saxon church extant in the 867 & 1066 start dates, it was important to acknowledge the lack of available visual reference material. Historically speaking, the Anglo-Saxon church was burnt down in 1067, but we do have some conceptual renditions and blueprints of the estimated building layout to work from, courtesy of the archeologists (our heroes).

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Sometimes luck strikes and blueprints or estimated ones can be found.

From this, I created a fairly basic interpretation of the church that serves well as the first/starting stage for the Canterbury Cathedral. Additional geometry, like pillars and an external house, was added to the building to create a more compelling in-game silhouette.

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The original Anglo-Saxon church - Tier 1

The Norman Cathedral - Tier 2​

After the first fire, a second church was built in its place, distinctively making use of the Romanesque style. As we move forward in history, more references become available, and fortunately the church foundations are described as rather similar to the church of today. The more significant differences to modern Canterbury Cathedral are, for example, the front and main towers: they are still Romanesque.

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Canterbury Cathedral - Tier 2

Romanesque and Gothic
If this happens to be your first time coming across these terms, some explaining might be in order. Romanesque and Gothic are two styles of architecture which defined buildings and churches throughout the Medieval era. Romanesque, the older of the two, emerged sometime around the year 1000 and lasted until around 1150. It’s a style arising from and defined by Germanic, Byzantine and old Roman influences, favoring circular Roman arches and a more solid-looking facade compared to later churches.

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Romanesque Abbaye de Lessay

From the Romanesque emerged the Gothic in the 12th-13th centuries. In Gothic architecture, Roman arches find themselves replaced by Gothic ones; we also see elaborate ribbed vaults, towering flying buttresses, and church interiors brightened by large stained glass windows.

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Chartres Gothic Cathedral

Modeling
I technically started with the third tier of the structure of the Canterbury Cathedral, rather than the second tier. Because we work with modular pieces and texture atlases, I find it easier to work from the complete cathedral, then remove any additional geometry. It also meant that the last tier would have most of the same layout as the modern cathedral, minus some of the later additions.

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Modular pieces used for building the Cathedral

With the modular pieces ready, it was then just a question of assembling the cathedral.


The Gothic Cathedral - Tier 3​

We could see in the final version of the Cathedral that a lot of areas had been raised since the time of the second, so I simply made minor tweaks to the height of some walls and roofs, while preserving the original UV. The back of the cathedral had also been extended and rebuilt, with the addition of two new structures. The south-west tower was rebuilt, but not the north-west tower as of yet: that happened later historically.


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The cathedral with the towers in the front. The main tower however was a new construction past CK3’s timeline.

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Canterbury Cathedral - Tier 3

The third tier takes on a Gothic style, with flying buttresses along the length of the cathedral, and it also puts a golden angel on the pinnacle of the main tower.


Basing and Decal
In order for us to be certain that our holdings will be placed correctly on the map, we extend the ‘basement’ of the mesh into the ground to accommodate for the map’s height differences.
This ensures we have no areas free flying in the air. Usually this is a bigger issue for holdings than monuments, as monuments have a single specific place on the map where they exist.

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Decal texture in Substance Painter

We also create decals that show a more interesting ground variation around the structure. In my case, I painted out some roads to give life to the area. Some color variation to the grass to better blend in with the rest of the map, and darker areas where the cathedral would be located. The decal plane is on average twice the size of our building.

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Anglo-Saxon church , Romanesque Cathedral, Gothic Cathedral T1 - T2 - T3

After all the buildings were done and I was happy with the progression from tier 1 to tier 2 and tier 3, I could finalize the UV’s. We use two UV maps to layout the textures: one is for the ambient occlusion that we bake in, and the other for the texture atlas. The texture atlas lets us reuse textures to save on performance. I did the baking in marmoset with a low poly to low poly set up. Normally you have a high poly to bake down to the low poly mesh, but I was only after the ambient occlusion.

Bonus Bridge Update​

A new set of cultural stone bridges will be added over the world, replacing some of the old wooden bridges and overall making it a bit clearer where the safer river crossings are. We will be adding a total of four standard bridge types, for Western Europe, the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and Indian regions.


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These bridges have been based on historical examples sampled from these regions. The Western and Mediterranean bridges are based on arched bridges from Europe, with the appropriate local flairs. The Middle Eastern bridge is based upon Sassanid designs like the Marnan and Kohneh bridge, among others, and are mostly found in the regions around modern Iran and Iraq. The Indian bridges take their inspiration from the Athernala bridge in eastern India.
 
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Monuments, eh?

Not that hyped for that. Is this gonna be a CK2 situation where we couldn't destroy or repurpose the event so if you conquered Rome as a Pagan you had a giant useless thing sitting there?
 
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Monuments, eh?

Not that hyped for that. Is this gonna be a CK2 situation where we couldn't destroy or repurpose the event so if you conquered Rome as a Pagan you had a giant useless thing sitting there?
Isn't it currently the same for CK3 with some specific special monuments. I think there are some cases where the Monument isn't upgradeable or won't have the mechanics if you have a different faith.
 
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I don't know if this could work and I am not wholeheartedly endorsing it, but if we are talking monuments and, presumably, some sort of Great Works mechanic like in CK2, then would it maybe be possible to have small 3D windows showing the great works change with improvements (with minimal animations though, so as to not take away from performance), instead of the 2D art of CK2?
 
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There was a whole thread with people complaining about no dev diary last week (hey, I get it, I too was disappointed and want to know where the game is heading). The devs said filler dev diaries had been poorly received by the CK community in the past, hence why they were wary of doing any. Posters said filler dev diaries are fine, actually, just give us something. And of course, most early responses to this thread are people complaining that this dev diary doesn't have more information.

I'm really glad I don't work on this game right now, is what I'm saying.
I agree with you, but good luck getting so many different people with different expectations to make up their minds in a single direction
 
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I truly can't understand how good CK2 post-release development was and how bad CK3 post-release development is being.

In a few months the game will turn 3 years old and the game experience is pretty much the same as it was at release.
 
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I assume we'll be getting the same treatment for Notre Dame? Also, any chance of monuments for the Byzantines/Romans, like aqueducts? I would LOVE to build some of those!
 
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thats what i meant. even your example lowers my expectation for plate armor art since it's such a late development.
The picture I posted is 1380s ish, but represents a mid point in development.
I'm not an expert so I couldn't trace the beginnings of plate back without a lot of time, but it's certainly starting to be a thing in the late portion of the game period.

Now, *Gothic* plate is later but the fundamentals of plate over the vulnerable larger areas of the body is developing.
 
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Bridges are currently for the foreseeable future basing their look on their geographical regions.

The ability to build them and change them over time are interesting, though we'd probably want to make that a proper system if we expand further on bridges in the future. Currently they play a part of geographic features that might need to be part of planning army movements, and the ability to build or destroy them would be a larger kind of action/system needed.

But monumental bridges that were mentioned earlier in the thread is a good idea, I'll keep that in mind.
Well, that is one big theory for what the dlc will include thrown out the window… Regardless, good to see you listing possible ideas. Building roads and bridges would make the connection to the map more valuable.
 
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While I’m just as eager for news of the next DLC as anyone else, I thought this was a very interesting diary in its own right for the insight into one of the dev processes as well as showcasing the team’s attention to historical detail (and it got me researching the evolution of the architecture of Canterbury Cathedral myself - I’d never before heard of the Angel Steeple!).

That’s to say, I’d take a diary like this over no diary at all any time. :)
 
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Bit late to the party, but this phenomenal and just the kind of thing ive been wanting! Outside the big things like non feudal governments and a production/trade system its the little things like graphical touches that make each area feel unique.
 
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The picture I posted is 1380s ish, but represents a mid point in development.
I'm not an expert so I couldn't trace the beginnings of plate back without a lot of time, but it's certainly starting to be a thing in the late portion of the game period.

Now, *Gothic* plate is later but the fundamentals of plate over the vulnerable larger areas of the body is developing.
Plate armor was a staple since, at least, the 1350s as far as I can tell, even if it was occasionally covered by tabard or other cloth. That is a full 100 years before the end date, it's fully justifiable to add.
 
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How is passive-aggressively posting on every official thread going to help with that?
The devs are people, too. And constantly dealing with useless, demotivating, unconstructive comments like that is certain to have an adverse effect on everyone's shared goal of the devs being willing to invest time and effort into communicating with the community.

Sure, money should be a motivator for a company, but communication is a two-way street.
If you want someone to engage with you positively, it's not likely to happen if you are going into the conversation openly hostile.
That doesn't mean you can't criticise (i have my own share of criticisms of the game), but passive-aggressive comments that are not even specifically criticising anything in any way just turns this whole forum into a toxic mess that neither the devs nor i want to participate in. That's the essence of toxic forum culture.

We see in other PDS titles (mainly Stellaris) how much these games benefit from community interaction and we've seen the CK3 devs massively ramp up their communication from the start of the year. But that's a process. Demotivating them now, when they are clearly making an effort to improve is absolutely counterproductive - and quite frankly stupid.

No amount of enraged screaming at someone will make them want to listen to you more in the future. Basic empathy should get you that far.
You say that passive-aggressive messages are bad. Possibly bad. But didn't you think that this behavior is a natural reaction of the players to the fact that the game is clearly stagnating in terms of gameplay? You give the example of the Stellaris community and how Stellaris benefits from interacting with the community. Unfortunately, I can’t say almost anything objective here, because I don’t follow him. But let's compare what the developers of Stellaris and the developers of Crusader Kings 3 have done over the past year.
Stellaris:
2022-02-23: Patch 3.3, which radically changed the role of unity in the game, as a result of which the gameplay has changed significantly.
2022-05-12: Patch 3.4 and Overlord expansion. AI improvement. And an expansion of the vassalage mechanic.
2022-09-20: Patch 3.5 and Toxoids expansion. Not so big patch. Few new gameplay.
2022-12-06: Patch 3.6. Large-scale rebalancing of the combat system.
The First Contact DLC is on the way, which should be released, as far as I know, at the end of the first quarter, and which will expand interactions with primitive civilizations. Really, they add new gameplay again.

Crusader Kings 3:
2022-02-08: Patch 1.5 and Royal Court expansion. Changing cultures, which I liked. The mechanics of the royal court is good. But the artifact mechanics are boring.
2022-05-31: Patch 1.6 and Iberian Struggle flavor pack. Struggle mechanics, not bad, but based on gameplay features that already existed at that time.
2022-09-08: Patch 1.7 Friends and Foes event pack.
2022-12-01: Patch 1.8. "Technical" update. But I'm glad that the developers are fixing bugs.

What do we end up with? Stellaris has changed a lot over the year, unlike Crusader Kings 3. It is also worth noting that Stellaris updates are released more regularly (there was a break of more than six months before the release of the Royal Court dlc, while Stellaris came out during this time: a small patch 3.1 and the Aquatics dlc.
Let's get back to your statement. I don't think the Stellaris and Crusader Kings 3 communities are very different. It's just that the Stellaris community simply has no reason to get bored, because there is always something new in Stellaris, something that refreshes the gameplay. What's in Crusader Kings 3? The core mechanics of governments has not been changed or added since the release of the game, and no new form of government has been added. Crusader Kings 3 doesn't even have a basic population based economy, no trade. In more than two years since its release, the game has changed little. Unlike Stellaris, which has changed beyond recognition in a year (largely due to major revisions of the main gameplay by the developers). And it's good that the developers want to interact more closely with the community, but I think they should be prepared for the fact that bored players will complain. And I am more than sure that if Stellaris also starts to stagnate, then the Stellaris community will become the same as the CK3 community and vice versa.

P.S. I am not a native English speaker, so I can make mistakes, if you do not understand something, please excuse me and ask questions, I will try to find time to answer everything.
 
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I've been playing since early CK2 and I have confidence the DLC is gonna be great. I imagine there will be a couple of big features along with it, like culture and the court with the Royal Court DLC. I loved Royal Court, and am still loving the Culture system, though admittedly I don't interact with the court all that much. It was still a pretty neat feature. Whether it's religion, development or some sort of travel based system, or something beyond my imagining, it's going to be great fun. I don't game much, but there is a reason this is pretty much the only game I get around to playing.
 
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Sooooo Is this gonna be like in Imperator Rome, or less impressive? Can I build my own Monument in any province in the world? Because that would make it quite amazing imo.
 
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2022-02-23: Patch 3.3, which radically changed the role of unity in the game, as a result of which the gameplay has changed significantly.
2022-05-12: Patch 3.4 and Overlord expansion. AI improvement. And an expansion of the vassalage mechanic.
2022-09-20: Patch 3.5 and Toxoids expansion. Not so big patch. Few new gameplay.
2022-12-06: Patch 3.6. Large-scale rebalancing of the combat system.
The First Contact DLC is on the way, which should be released, as far as I know, at the end of the first quarter, and which will expand interactions with primitive civilizations. Really, they add new gameplay again.

Crusader Kings 3:
2022-02-08: Patch 1.5 and Royal Court expansion. Changing cultures, which I liked. The mechanics of the royal court is good. But the artifact mechanics are boring.
2022-05-31: Patch 1.6 and Iberian Struggle flavor pack. Struggle mechanics, not bad, but based on gameplay features that already existed at that time.
2022-09-08: Patch 1.7 Friends and Foes event pack.
2022-12-01: Patch 1.8. "Technical" update. But I'm glad that the developers are fixing bugs.
Why did you omit in your comparison of releases between the two games that together with 1.7 F&Fs CK3 received a major AI update (among other things like the memories system)?
 
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