New Steam Screenshots, Updated Map

[residood]

(first post, jumping into a thread, have no idea where to find things)

What's the difference between the areas that are filled in with a color and the areas that are, so to speak, blank?

 

[Nelfe]

(first post, jumping into a thread, have no idea where to find things)

What's the difference between the areas that are filled in with a color and the areas that are, so to speak, blank?

Countries filled with a color represent playable countries. Blank areas with a colored border represents undevelopped countries which won't be playable and can be colonized by developped countries.

 

[residood]

Countries filled with a color represent playable countries. Blank areas with a colored border represents undevelopped countries which won't be playable and can be colonized by developped countries.

Ah! Cool. Thanks. Manifest destiny!

I'm really on deep water regarding this period of history so looking forward to learning

 

[fr-rein]

Absence of Caucasian small states, including Caucasian imamate and Circassia is so plain offensive given how much detail was given to territories in Africa.

 

[Nibbes]

People greatly underestimate the amount of resources that Russia had at its disposal. Yes, it was a backwater by many European standards, but a large contributing factor to the heat of WWI and politics of the late 19th and early 20th centuries was that everybody knew Russia was about to industrialize and become unstoppable. It's not as simple as "Stalin was cruel and goal-oriented and brought Russia from a third world nation to a second world nation ezpz", because Russia had way more resources available to them than, say, Laos, Angola, or Sioux. You can also see how the stalinistic rule of Laos or Angola did not result in what it resulted for in Russia.
Also Paradox is shy of including genocides in their games and likely won't model that at all.


It can be both a method of displaying information and silly. Personally, I don't think it's a good method of displaying information, either. I mean for one, this means that either all the buildings in the world have to look the same, or you have to memorize every different version for this "displaying information" to be useful, which seems pretty counterintuitive to me. Second, I don't know about you, but I have never zoomed in and looked at the map to see that kind of information, rather than just click on the state or province, and anecdotally I have literally never seen nor heard of anyone doing any differently. Zooming in rather than just clicking takes longer, is less clear, ironically obscures more of your vision than a little submenu taking up 1/12th of the screen, and also does not look particularly good. Part of the reason it doesn't look good when you max zoom on a province is because the textures are low quality and the map is low resolution. Part of the reason is because it looks silly to have 37 monopoly buildings sprinkled from the Mississippi to the Rio Grande.

That’s why you put it under “assimilating”. Ancient warfare or tribal warfare intentionally and often unintentionally lead to depopulation of adult male population while leaving kids and women who are generally easier to assimilate. Genocide is strong word and modern international terminology honestly water downs term.

For example, what Nazis did or even what Mongols did in some places was a genocide. Rome in Gaul was more of “cultural destruction” or “cultural emasculation” by conquest. I think that’s more fitting word then
Genocide.
They didn’t kill celts but made them “submit” to Rome or die. That simple. There reason most of Western European languages are Latin base to some level. It isn’t peaceful one. This isn’t just “ancient” or “primitive” thing either. Germany experienced “cultural emasculation” with rape of Berlin and complete conquest of Germany. It shattered concept of “German exceptionalism” same way Caesar conquest of Gaul shattered Celtic people pride especially with purge of Druids. These tactics and politicking is far from new or “modern” thing.

But back to Russian Empire and Soviet Union. Stalin was no Lenin who he copied much of his ideas or models off of but Stalin was just paranoid brute that sometimes butchered plans.
The Russian Empire that survives would be more like India is now in comparison to western world. A westernized elite and decent but still overall small middle class in comparison to tons of poor and not well educated masses. They would not be going to space like Soviet Union or have stable development at all. The wealth gaps will be huge and likely even a less democratic society then our world. Modern Mexico industrialization is also good comparison

To give example, Russia likely becomes mix of India, Mexico, and China now in relationship to Europe. A big amount of raw resources and cheap industries and sweat shop labor but lacking in more high end industries or educated fields.
Just because they have industries does not mean it’s not foreign owned or can be nationalized for war effort or rapid industrialization.
For example, the US might export its industries overseas but their base of operations and people running it are still here. Not Mexico or India. Even more skilled people from there get exported to US labor. A Russian empire industrialization is likely highly foreign owned or mismanaged by the state. The tsar regime is not capitalist so it can be economically restrictive as well.

 

[Nibbes]

People greatly underestimate the amount of resources that Russia had at its disposal. Yes, it was a backwater by many European standards, but a large contributing factor to the heat of WWI and politics of the late 19th and early 20th centuries was that everybody knew Russia was about to industrialize and become unstoppable. It's not as simple as "Stalin was cruel and goal-oriented and brought Russia from a third world nation to a second world nation ezpz", because Russia had way more resources available to them than, say, Laos, Angola, or Sioux. You can also see how the stalinistic rule of Laos or Angola did not result in what it resulted for in Russia.
Also Paradox is shy of including genocides in their games and likely won't model that at all.


It can be both a method of displaying information and silly. Personally, I don't think it's a good method of displaying information, either. I mean for one, this means that either all the buildings in the world have to look the same, or you have to memorize every different version for this "displaying information" to be useful, which seems pretty counterintuitive to me. Second, I don't know about you, but I have never zoomed in and looked at the map to see that kind of information, rather than just click on the state or province, and anecdotally I have literally never seen nor heard of anyone doing any differently. Zooming in rather than just clicking takes longer, is less clear, ironically obscures more of your vision than a little submenu taking up 1/12th of the screen, and also does not look particularly good. Part of the reason it doesn't look good when you max zoom on a province is because the textures are low quality and the map is low resolution. Part of the reason is because it looks silly to have 37 monopoly buildings sprinkled from the Mississippi to the Rio Grande.

Also my strategy as African nation would be to blob before Europeans get chance to colonize place. Just get manpower and raw resources up. Africa rich in raw resources. This helps make up for technology gaps while I also hire foreign specialist/advisors and import manufactured products/weapons to help modernize my nation

 

[Lord Canterbury]

That's the "Selected country" color, not Siam's color. Siam has a darker blue the same as Chiang Mai's in that screenshot since Chiang Mai is a Siamese subject.

If the "selected country" colour for all countries is ocean blue then that is even worse.
But I don't think it is that. I think it is "selected Siam".
Siam is slightly darker blue than the ocean, and unselected countries have a darkened border, making Siam (and Chiang Mai) appear one shade darker.
Selected countries have a paler border, making Siam appear one shade lighter... which is very similar to ocean blue.

 

[DanielPrates]

Portugal gets Distinct-yet-Distinguished Blue.

I think it's called "I can't beleive it's not Prussia!"

 

[Krajzen]

Very rough perspective correction of the map:
View attachment 781389

- I didn't realize how huge independent Egypt was for a while, it's a shame British & Ottomans won here anyway, this narrow window of independent imperial Egypt is going to be a huge source of alternate history in Vic3
- I also didn't realize how apparently Arabian Peninsula had almost exactly identical borders 185 years ago?
- I also didn't realize how Sikh empire and those other two states already formed almost exact borders of Pakistan 185 years ago
- As a fan of symmetric borders I really hate how Russian Poland is this awkward tumor growing outside rest of the empire. As a Polish person, I am also annoyed that Prussia didn't manage to control this area, because to this day there are consequences of divide "more developed German part of Poland vs less developed Russian and Austrian parts"
- Algeria was largely united?
- I like the map of Africa, although I am kind of surprised how much of Bantu Africa was deemed to be unorganized and unplayable (maybe I shouldn't be - Horn of Africa, Sahel and Nigeria - Ghana were much more developed than rest of the continent
- However, why is there no Ashanti as an organized state in Africa? It was pretty damn serious state and civilization

 

[Delterius]

And poor Siam gets Lost-in-the-Ocean Blue.

How to survive colonialism? That's right, camouflage.

 

[Darsara]

Portugal gets Distinct-yet-Distinguished Blue.
Japan gets Everyone-has-an-Opinion Green
And poor Siam gets Lost-in-the-Ocean Blue.

It's camouflage, to help avoid the attention of predators, like imperialists.

 

[Morrowind3]

Why Sokoto has higher standard of living than Prussia? While standard of living might be fixed yet, I'm not sure whether they are going to fix Japan's population, especially that it's been a while that we are seeing this number...

I'm guessing industrialization hurts the standard of living for on the short term as everyone moves to city slums to live and work in worse conditions than they would have on sustenance farms, but then later gets higher as infastructure, supply, middle class and worker rights grow to catch up with the industrial revolution. So in the Early game continental european countries have a low average due to their large impoverished proletariat. Note how England's standard of living is 11.3. They were the birthplace of the industrial revolution in 1760, so they'd have the largest middle class to raise their standard of living by the time the game starts. Meanwhile the Prussian industrial revolution is dated to have started on 1815, just a few decades before the game starts.

 

[Darsara]

Also, I'm wondering about the map of Canada; are those little pockets of land scattered around the east just a an in development glitch, or what? And why does there seem to be an OPM decentralized nation near Norway House, the defacto Headquarters of the HBC in 1836? The Norway House Cree? Another in development thing?

 

[Fallofthepurple]

Absence of Caucasian small states, including Caucasian imamate and Circassia is so plain offensive given how much detail was given to territories in Africa.

There are still various parts of the map that can, should and hopefully will be improved but I dont see how that in any way relates to a more accurate representation of Africa.

 

[Muezzinzade]

I'm guessing industrialization hurts the standard of living for on the short term as everyone moves to city slums to live and work in worse conditions than they would have on sustenance farms, but then later gets higher as infastructure, supply, middle class and worker rights grow to catch up with the industrial revolution. So in the Early game continental european countries have a low average due to their large impoverished proletariat. Note how England's standard of living is 11.3. They were the birthplace of the industrial revolution in 1760, so they'd have the largest middle class to raise their standard of living by the time the game starts. Meanwhile the Prussian industrial revolution is dated to have started on 1815, just a few decades before the game starts.

Interesting point, might be the right explanation, thanks!

 

[fr-rein]

There are still various parts of the map that can, should and hopefully will be improved but I dont see how that in any way relates to a more accurate representation of Africa.

Caucasus was (and still is) a geopolitical issue between Russia, Turkey and Iran.

Due to 0 representation there in Victoria 2 Russia steamrolls into Eastern Anatolia like it's 1914. If you played you know.

Russia being too strong there (due to painting it's Caucasus) makes Ottomans extremely weak against them. Unless you give them ahistorical buffs and make them stronger elsewhere.

Level of detail in Africa actually is far less consequential than in Caucasus as that region is weighing power of Russian Empire (GP), Ottoman Empire (falling GP) and Iran (major unciv also known as major unrecognised) - and details of 1836 (Caucasus War) is restraining Russian influence quite a lot - at the very least by limited logistics, one of reasons the Russian Empire used Cossack corps in Caucasus - they were also sustaining themselves and settling down.

If AI won't be stupid it'll be smacking Ottomans easily and I don't want to see it that challengeless. As well as workarounds that buff up Ottomans and make game worse for Greece and Egypt.

So yes, correct colonization after 1870s is far less important than geopolitical balance of 1836 that in game is painted as if it is 1914.

 

[fadi_efendi]

This looks so great, seriously can't wait for this game! Couple of questions:

• I see Tunis is painted in Ottoman green. Shouldn't it at least be a vassal? A playable Tunis could be challenging but fun.
• Shouldn't Muslim women rendered with some kind of headscarf (the Islamic veil and its forms is definitely a subject of debate today, but most 19th-century Muslim women would wear one in public); also why "Shiite" instead of "Shia?"
• Why would Prussia start the game as Austria's rival? I was hoping for some sort of Holy Alliance in 1836 between the two and Russia, keeping European borders stable and revolutionaries in check, with the competition over the fate of Germany starting later.

 

[TemirFe26]

I see Tunis is painted in Ottoman green. Shouldn't it at least be a vassal? A playable Tunis could be challenging but fun.

If you zoom in on the map in the first image, you can see a borderline between Tunis and Tripoli. Also, we've already seen the flag of Tunis in game. As you've indicated, Tunis was an Ottoman beylik at the time. Therefore, I assume Tunis is playable at game start.

 

[dragonluke]

I see Tunis is painted in Ottoman green. Shouldn't it at least be a vassal? A playable Tunis could be challenging but fun.

it is, subject tags are their overlord's color on the map

 

[fadi_efendi]

If you zoom in on the map in the first image, you can see a borderline between Tunis and Tripoli. Also, we've already seen the flag of Tunis in game. As you've indicated, Tunis was an Ottoman beylik at the time. Therefore, I assume Tunis is playable at game start.

it is, subject tags are their overlord's color on the map

Thanks, I hadn't seen that list of countries. I guess that settles it. Still, Tunis doesn't show as the Ottomans' ally in DD#25, and Wallachia and Moldavia have their own map colors. Maybe there are different vassal ranks?

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