• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
  • 18Love
  • 7Like
  • 5
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Sacred prostitution (needs a better title) - all sex is virtuous for clergy
nd

I'd like to have a distinction here for whether same-sex relations are aloud. The Britannic heresy of Druidism in ARR views childbirth as holy, and as an extension of that Dryad's (priestesses) are encouraged to engage in sexual relations, but only with men. Homosexuality is still verboten, as no children can be had.
 
Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

View attachment 561061
[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

View attachment 561052
[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

View attachment 561053
[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

View attachment 561054
[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

View attachment 561055
[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

View attachment 561057
[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

View attachment 561059
[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

View attachment 561060
[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
I think faiths should be more fine-grained than by county. Maybe have a "dominant" religion that most people in the county follow, but also the possibility for a "secondary" one, which would have maluses because of the religious tension but be easier to convert the dominant religion to. Conversion would then be a two-step process of making your religion dominant, and then eliminating (one way or the other) the believers in the secondary ones - they could be slowly incentivized to convert through taxes, or expelled, which would immediately remove the secondary religion at the cost of a lot of development and/or gold (I'm thinking analogous to expelling Jews from CK2).
 
I think faiths should be more fine-grained than by county. Maybe have a "dominant" religion that most people in the county follow, but also the possibility for a "secondary" one, which would have maluses because of the religious tension but be easier to convert the dominant religion to. Conversion would then be a two-step process of making your religion dominant, and then eliminating (one way or the other) the believers in the secondary ones - they could be slowly incentivized to convert through taxes, or expelled, which would immediately remove the secondary religion at the cost of a lot of development and/or gold (I'm thinking analogous to expelling Jews from CK2).
I don’t really see the possibility in that mainly because it’s a bit too convoluted and forced, adding a secondary religion and using arbitrary mechanics to promote it as the main religion sounds like having a pop mechanic minus the pops. Now a pop mechanic would be good, it wouldn’t even have to be as detailed as Victoria 2, all we would need is a job, religion, culture and maybe unrest for each pop and bam, from jobs and total population you could get a ‘development’ value and income, and for culture and religion you could get a more realistic simulation of religion changes.

That said Ck3 is confirmed not to have pop mechanics unfortunately, although as seen in EU4 you don’t necessarily need them although they definitely are something I’d want. However if they do wind up replacing development and county religion/culture mechanics for whatever reason I’d hope for a full pop mechanic system rather than a shallow spinoff.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I think faiths should be more fine-grained than by county.(...)

That's too detailed, too much detail can easily become too convoluted, while providing no useful depth to the game.
Now, separate culture/religion per barony would be more realistic. It's seems it'd also be easy to implement mechanically, since in CK3 barony is province, and county is a grouping of provinces.
 
The distinction is that same-sex relations is a behaviour (about which there was a diversity of opinion throughout CK3's setting) and homosexuality is an orientation (the concept only being invented in the 19th century, first specifically codified by Karl-Heinrich Ulrichs as Urningthum in the 1860s). While the idea that some people had a strong preference for same-sex relationships is an ancient one, the idea of it as a definitional aspect of personality is modern. And I, as a bisexual person, can engage in same-sex relations without being homosexual. So both for historical and practical reasons, 'same-sex relations' is preferable to 'homosexuality'.

Question: what are the settings for clerical sex discipline? It certainly shouldn't be just 'celibate/not celibate'. My own recommendation would be:
  • Celibate - no sex
  • Chaste, free marriage - a priest may take a spouse but must be faithful
  • Chaste, prior marriage only - a priest may not marry, but a married person may become a priest
  • Chaste, hieros gamos - clergy may only marry other clergy, infidelity with other clergy is viewed less severely than with laity
  • Default - clergy are only bound by the same rules as laity
  • Androgyny - clergy are capable of marrying either sex, and are not bound by the regular rules on same-sex relations
  • Sacred prostitution (needs a better title) - all sex is virtuous for clergy
nd


the last, wouldn't be that?
It would be cool it have it, but it'd need to have as many laws and restrictions around it to make it sacred as it did in historical cultures that practiced. Not just all sex is cool which probably baltic pagans might have? but they really never had sacred prostitution and cultures that did tended not to see all sex as virtuous for priests?

Really brilliant ideas.

Im hoping their are many options for all of these
and that, PLEASE PARADOX PLEASE, they can change over time and be effected by cultural/government-type/kingdom laws not just absolute binaries like its worryingly looking like
 
Nooo! I dont like this!

I wanst interested in CK3 before i read this design diary but now i want to buy and play this.

Why you do this to me and my wallet? Im still happy with ck2 :D

99 faiths! Imagine the modding possibilities with this promising system!
 
"You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses." As a Chinese, I'm really looking forward to it. But PLEASE DON'T MAKE TAOISM INTO A SCHOOL OF CONFUCIANISM (since I didn't see you mention Taoism). They are VERY different ideologies and philosophies. I would advise putting both of them in a "Chinese/East Asia religious group" though.
 
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan

Would it be possible to substitute “Eastern” or another term for “Oriental”? The latter has quite a few negative connotations in terms of Europe exoticizing and patronizing Middle Eastern, Asian, and North African societies. I don’t have enough posts to include the link, but the Wikipedia article on Edward Said’s Orientalism is a good primer.
 


Do two people respectfully disagree with the skeptics' interpretation or whether there is even a historiographical debate?

Further reading with arguments on both sides

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7722/j.ctt1c3gx3j

Review
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/tmr/article/view/23314
 
Well.....I didn't expect that there would that many religions, it's kinda raised my hopes that perhaps a barony representing the city of Harran could be Pagan, considering that many of it's inhabitants continued to worship a mix of Hellenic and Mesopotamian deities until around the 10th century.

https://books.google.ie/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Well, 11th century, since the Temple of Sin/Suen/Nanna was destroyed in 1032/1033. 'course, the same author concluded that it was a largely Mesopotamian/Semetic religion with surface-level Hellenic syncretism outside the Neoplatanists and Hermeticists.
 
the last, wouldn't be that?
It would be cool it have it, but it'd need to have as many laws and restrictions around it to make it sacred as it did in historical cultures that practiced. Not just all sex is cool which probably baltic pagans might have? but they really never had sacred prostitution and cultures that did tended not to see all sex as virtuous for priests?
Perhaps an option for sexual relationship restrictions being more lax for priests, an option for it being encouraged, and an option for it being enforced? So the opposite of chaste. Could also have effects like making bastards produced by priests considered always legitimate or superseding normal restrictions other doctrines might include.
 
Last edited:
A few thoughts though late.

Our codebase supports this, but sadly we do not currently have any content in-game which takes advantage of this (we did not have time to implement my dream of rulers sponsoring new ecumenical councils). Hopefully something we will add in a future patch, and absolutely something that can be added by mods.


Investiture mechanics are fixed for each faith. Dynamic investiture, along with the addition of antipapacies, is something we really want to add in a future patch.

Sacred lies is only for custom religions — I just wanted to give you all a sneak preview of just how wild and fun various Tenets can get.


Hard lock, but could be modded in script to support the later.


Eastern branches have been, yes. Autonomous leadership works differently in CK3, and is not represented by different Faiths.

If possible, Disallowed Clerical Marriages could leave marriages prior to ordination intact before the council that invalidates them. There could be a negative modifier for staying married but still prevent marrying afterwards.
Also, the negative modifier could scale with the Religious Customs technology to represent the enforcement of forbidding clerical marriages as time progressed. And there could exist decisions to become celibate while married to counter the modifier or simply break the marriage.

Other than that, I wonder if cultures will have culture families now that there are religion families. There can be greater detail for representing cultures like how this diary has shown. Representing the aspects of a culture with this setup could be interesting, too.
 
Last edited: