• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
  • 18Love
  • 7Like
  • 5
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Why does Communion enable buying indulgences, which was a banned practice? Just like EU4 last week paradox inserts nonsense into the game about Catholicism like some caricature.
 
Hi, thanks for the dev diary. It is the most interesting so far in my opinion as expected.

I guess (and hope) that the doctrines can change by themselves without player's intervention (probably though the head of faith) during the game ? For example, clergy's marriage being allowed for Catholics in 867 then forbidden thanks to gregorian reform ?
What about the investiture quarrel ? Will a conflict happen between the pope and the secular ruler to decide doctrine, will this ruler need to create an heresy or will the doctrine let realms decide ?

The mechanics you presented today are very amazing. It promises a lot. And OMG 99 religions this is just beautiful.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I really like this one, the new system looks great. A shame that there is no antipapacy though. The interface says something about "clerical appointment: spiritual, for life". So there is some kind of investiture system? How are they appointed?
Can you tell us which religion uses the "sacred lies" tenent? Or is it for custom religions only?
Also, is "armed pilgrimages" some kind of euphemism? ;-)
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Marriage Doctrines cover <...> who can even get married in the first place
Assuming this relates to the "consanguinity" tab of the doctrines? And if so, might I ask how that works? If the faith prohibits, say, first cousin marriage, is it a hard lock, or is there merely consequences (monthly piety loss, perhaps?) for breaking the doctrine?
 
Wow. I suspected vague things in this direction, but I am very pleased. I think that this game will not suffer upon launch from having every region feel the same. If religions affect things so much.
Seeing all the stuff about male-dominated, I just want to start a custom game with my very own custom religion! I'm so excited to hear about that next week!

It is curious that things like sunni, shia and norse are not faiths. Are they religions? I'll be honest I don't know much about the sects of other religions and I am worried that I won't feel as much a connection or interest to 'asatru' as I would to Norse, etc.)
 
All right, now next to more map changes enabling much more strategic gameplay this is actually a feature worth buying CK3.

@Baron von Shoes Will the tenets and/or doctrines be changeable during the game? e.g. the Catholic church introducing celibacy of the clergy? If yes, who if anybody apart from the Pope would get a vote on the matter?
 
So... with this system... and since we all know there HAS to be a DLC to fix the previous DD's popular revolt about the Byzantine Empire...

...we now know, FOR A FACT, that a pre-schism Universal Catholic Church is possible, and next week's DD is going to tell us about Heresies and stuff.

So the Byzantine DLC will not be JUST about the Byzantine politics, but will also include an earlier start date and events leading to the Schism.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I think I can safely say this is the best Dev Diary so far. Everything is simply much more complex and detailed than we've seen in CK2 for religion, even after all its DLCs. It's quite clear to me that Religion was a heavy focus of development (as it should be, really). The numbers alone of all this I can't grasp. Over 50 tenets, at least 18 doctrines covering all these aspect of a faith... almost a hundred faiths, can't even believe how packed will the religion map be. Simply wonderful! I can imagine myself RPing a character competing for the supremacy of their specific faith over a simple Deviancy tenet .:p
You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

I love, LOVE the fact that sins and virtues are not static anymore. Didn't make much sense for a Pagan warmongering King to be shunned by his friends over his gluttony, did it? Especially after a glorious campaign of war and plunder! And I can already see someone making a sort of quasi-Satanist faith where every sin is a virtue and every virtue is a sin! :D

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

It really seems that changing even one measly doctrine can actually have a remarkable impact on gameplay. Playing a pagan faith and want to imprison your kinslaying uncle vassal? Well, it's time to lobby for making kinslaying a sin, and start lobbying hard!

Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting

Again, absolutely wonderful. I'll go completely nuts when Ancient Religions mod come up, or even the Elder Scrolls / AGOT mods.
 
Hohoho
Me likey
This is a great dev diary and I love that religion gets expanded that much.
Here is hopes for some food related doctrines(Which could make Gluttony a Virtue, after all, all food is sacred, so wasting it is downright wicked)
 
I will raise that with the team for discussion, but I can't promise anything.
Thank you very much. I'm glad you're at least willing to discuss it. The willingness of the team to consider player input is one of the reasons I keep coming back to Paradox games and why CK3 will almost certainly end up in my library.
 
Can we have a list of all 99 faiths available in the base game?

So far, we know of 31 by name (in addition to 3 unknown schools of Confucianism, bringing the total number of known religions to 34):
* Catholic
* Orthodox
* Cathar
* Coptic
* Nestorian
* Apostolic
* Adamite
* Isma'ili
* Ash'ari
* Zayidi
* Maturidi
* Isma’ili
* Qarmatian
* Haymanot
* Karaite
* Rabbanist
* Sabanian
* Manichean
* Vaishnavism
* Shaktism
* Theravada
* Mahayana
* Vajrayana
* Kushite
* Waaqi
* Bori Animism
* Roog Sene
* Tengri
* Magyar
* Bon
* Asatru
 
Can we have a list of all 99 faiths available in the base game?

So far, we know of 31 by name (in addition to 3 unknown schools of Confucianism, bringing the total number of known religions to 34):
* Catholic
* Orthodox
* Cathar
* Coptic
* Nestorian
* Apostolic
* Adamite
* Isma'ili
* Ash'ari
* Zayidi
* Maturidi
* Isma’ili
* Qarmatian
* Haymanot
* Karaite
* Rabbanist
* Sabanian
* Manichean
* Vaishnavism
* Shaktism
* Theravada
* Mahayana
* Vajrayana
* Kushite
* Waaqi
* Bori Animism
* Roog Sene
* Tengri
* Magyar
* Bon
* Asatru
Can probably assume with Adamites in that the other christian heresies from ck2 are in, and in another post Yazidi was mentioned
 
The initial declarations on religion worried me, especially the concept of "creating your own religion" which sounded positively stupid and gave me the impression that religions were going to be homogenized and made relatively less important in order to fit some dumb custom religion creator.

This developer diary reassured me, this looks like a step forward in handling religion that hopefully will increase the uniqueness of each faith instead of reducing them.
 
What is fervor? Moral Authority stand-in or something completely different?

Also, I don't quite get the religious hierarchy.

We have the Abrahamic family, consisting primarily of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Those three are religions which contain different faiths such as Catholicism and Shi'ism. What then do you call heresies and other various subgroups? Are they also faiths, considering that Ismalii and Asharii are on the map? Are heresies and subgroups on the same hierarchical tier as the main branch?

To illustrate, if I'm being unclear

Re. Family -> Religion -> Faith -> ???
Abrahamic -> Islam -> Sunni -> Ash'ari
Abrahamic -> Islam -> Shia -> Ism'ilism
Abrahamic -> Christianity -> Catholicism -> Cathar

Abrahamic -> Judaism -> Rabbanist -> ???
OR
Abrahamic -> Judaism -> ??? -> Rabbanist
 
I guess (and hope) that the doctrines can change by themselves without player's intervention (probably though the head of faith) during the game ? For example, clergy's marriage being allowed for Catholics in 867 then forbidden thanks to gregorian reform?
Our codebase supports this, but sadly we do not currently have any content in-game which takes advantage of this (we did not have time to implement my dream of rulers sponsoring new ecumenical councils). Hopefully something we will add in a future patch, and absolutely something that can be added by mods.

I really like this one, the new system looks great. A shame that there is no antipapacy though. The interface says something about "clerical appointment: spiritual, for life". So there is some kind of investiture system? How are they appointed?
Can you tell us which religion uses the "sacred lies" tenent? Or is it for custom religions only?
Investiture mechanics are fixed for each faith. Dynamic investiture, along with the addition of antipapacies, is something we really want to add in a future patch.

Sacred lies is only for custom religions — I just wanted to give you all a sneak preview of just how wild and fun various Tenets can get.

Assuming this relates to the "consanguinity" tab of the doctrines? And if so, might I ask how that works? If the faith prohibits, say, first cousin marriage, is it a hard lock, or is there merely consequences (monthly piety loss, perhaps?) for breaking the doctrine?
Hard lock, but could be modded in script to support the later.

Does it mean that old Eastern (as well as Autonomus pagan) branches (traits in CK2) became faiths?
Eastern branches have been, yes. Autonomous leadership works differently in CK3, and is not represented by different Faiths.
 
  • 1
  • 1Love
  • 1Like
Reactions: