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Stellaris Dev Diary #152 - Summer Experimentation

Hello everyone!

Summer vacations are reaching their end and most of the team is back as of last week. Work has started again and we're really excited for what we have in store for the rest of the year.

While most of us have been away during most of the summer, we’ve also had some people who worked during July. July is a very good time to try out different designs and concepts that we might not otherwise have time to do, and today we thought it might be fun for you to see some of the experiments we ran during that period of hiatus.

Although we learned some useful insights, these experiments didn’t end up being good enough to make a reality.

Industrial Districts
As I have mentioned earlier, I have wanted to find a better solution for how we handle the production of alloys and consumer goods. I often felt like the experience of developing a planet felt better with an Ecumenopolis rather than with a regular planet. I think a lot of it had to do with their unique districts and that it feels better to get the jobs from constructing districts rather than buildings. Not necessarily as an emotion reaction to the choice, but rather that the choice perhaps feels more “pure” or simple.

An experiment I wanted to run was to see if it was possible to add an industrial district that provided Laborer jobs, instead of having buildings for Metallurgists and Artisans. Laborers would produce both alloys and consumer goods but could be shifted towards producing more of either.

This meant we added a 5th district, the Industrial District. By adding another district we also needed to reduce the number of building slots available. Since there would be no more need for buildings that produced alloys and consumer goods, this should still end up being similar.

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A Laborer would consume 8 minerals to produce 2 alloys and 4 consumer goods, and that amount could be modified in either direction by passing a Decision. What I wanted was to have an industry that could have a military and civilian output, and where you could adjust the values between these outputs.

Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.

City Districts & Building slots
Another experiment was to see how it felt if city districts unlock building slots instead of pops. This experiment didn’t have a specific problem or issue it was trying to address but rather it was to investigate how that would feel and work. It was interesting but ultimately it felt less fun than the current implementation. It would have needed more time to see if it could be made to work.
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This experiment did include increasing the number of jobs you would get for the building, so a research lab would provide 3 jobs instead of 2.

City District Jobs from Buildings
At the same time, we also tried a version where buildings applied jobs to city districts instead of providing jobs by themselves. One upside would be that you’d need less micromanagement to get the jobs, but the downside is that it would also be quite a large upswing in new jobs whenever you built a city district. In the end, it felt like you had less control and understanding of what a planet was specializing in.

Summary
Although these experiments were interesting, they didn’t end up quite where we wanted to, so they never became more than just experiments. We did learn some interesting things though, which we will keep in mind for the future. The industrial districts are still something I want to keep looking into, but we have to find a better solution.

Dev diaries will now be back on a regular schedule, but we will be looking into changing the format a bit this time around. For now, dev diaries will be coming bi-weekly, which means we will be back again in another 2 weeks with a similar topic.
 
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I dont know if this is a problem with all of you but almost in every campaign pops reproduce faster tan my capacity to supply Jobs and that is A problem angry pops wont work as efficient and you make less of everything
 
Alloys and CG are crucial resources like the energy, mineral and food anyways, so this makes sense to do. It also sounds sweet to have one of my colony to focus on military production while civilian on the other. Definitely should be implemented after doing whatever it is that you guys do to flesh it out.
 
01. That's a "nice" explanation, but doesn't fit the actual gameplay since a building offers up to 5x more jobs (through upgrades) or at least as many jobs as a district ...
02. If I "follow" such an explanation then it doesn't really hold a reason to limit the number of buildings at all, certainly not an arbitrary one like 16 and certainly not for any colony-size, too.
Uhh... Have you seen primitive farm? Takes up one building slot, yet gives more jobs and yield than 1 food district or 1 hydrofarm on 1 building slot. logic.
 
To me, it makes little sense that any buildings often provide more jobs than most buildings. Even if we go with the idea that most of what happens on districts is automated. I get the impression that districts are suppose to be large strips of land, where buildings are suppose to be a single building.

So I really like the idea of all the basics being from districts and buildings are highly specialized, where it either doesn't make sense to have multiple ones per world (ex. super computer) or the setup means that it's impossible to do whole districts (ex. strategic resource generating buildings).

Also on further thought, moving research, consumer goods & alloys to districts might actually force some more careful thought on how people do things, while also slowing down some snowballs. Currently, mineral production is almost entirely exclusive from alloy production. Sometimes the housing needs for alloy production will eat into the potential mine districts. With a district setup, assuming industrial districts follow the same rules as city/hive/nexus districts, that just means more often than not, an industrial district is probably coming at the expense of building a mining district. I don't know if the AI could handle this better, but it does mean that someone can't just build a world that is both mining districts & as many alloy foundries they can get away with.

Finally, this doe shave the upside of making housing buildings not feel crappy; especially, if we get a good setup where they aren't truly mirroring their district counterpart (I'd setup districts that provide housing, to provide more amenities, while also providing unity, while making it so that housing buildings do not provide unity). Plus, if we go with the idea of buildings really being just a single structure on the planet. Even if the reduce number still creates situations where the player has more building slots than they know what to do with. That does open the option to add in additional new buildings, could even make it so some of them are exclusive form other buildings (if build X gets build on a world, then buildings Y & Z cannot be built). Just to avoid a scenario where everyone is always filling out excess buildings slots with fortresses or some sort of refinery structure. More buildings; especially, if they are unique means more art instead of the current mix where you get a ton of planets where they have multiple slots filled with alloy foundries or research labs. Plus buildings that are exclusive from others means some worlds will feel a little more unique instead of "this here is my fifth research world that also produces minerals! Yeah, it looks much like my fifth foundry world that also produces minerals . . ."
 
Uhh... Have you seen primitive farm? Takes up one building slot, yet gives more jobs and yield than 1 food district or 1 hydrofarm on 1 building slot. logic.
Uhh ... That's exactly, what I'm talking about: This primitive farm aka this "building" offers 10 POP-jobs, way more ones than its district-counterpart, which doesn't indicate a puny, but rather a massive structure (similar to a district) and therefore: It makes sense, that the size of a world (not an arbitrary limit of 16 for each and everyone) impacts the maximal number of its "buildings" as well as its districts.
 
I think a better explanation is that the number of jobs a district/building offers has nothing to do with its actual, physical size but rather the labor "needs" of that particular workplace. A huge agricultural district can be manned by few pops if we assume farming is largely automated, but primitive farms need a lot of invested manpower for much smaller return.
 
well, i think the industrial district idea is good, because the foundries etc and all theese other buildings are a bit.... yah, unrealistic for some reasons like the jobs etc, so if we have the basic production of food, energy, minerals, alloys and consumergoods in districts (maybe turn the "industrial" Districts on City planets into research and trade would match it better to get a benefit from ecumenopolis) and just give us the "uniqe" and "limited" buildings like planetary shield, monuments and so on as only buildings could be a bit more realistic.

Thats what i think about.
 
I think a better explanation is that the number of jobs a district/building offers has nothing to do with its actual, physical size but rather the labor "needs" of that particular workplace. A huge agricultural district can be manned by few pops if we assume farming is largely automated, but primitive farms need a lot of invested manpower for much smaller return.
You don't even need to assume automation. Agriculture also just requires a lot of land compared to workers.
 
Yeah, ringworlds and ecumenopoli are the only area that might provide a slight snag because they need to be setup so that they are worth doing. I'd argue both might already be there, at least ringworld districts, by the number of jobs and resources they provide, which makes them more efficient by admin capacity. I'm not sure the devs want to try something where district get upgraded to produce more, have more jobs, but then require strategic resources. So the tricky spot for non-ecumenopli industrial districts would be to ensure they aren't to a point where they are more efficient than ecumenopli districts nor close enough. Obviously, such a change would warrant redoing ecumenopoli districts, since if regular planets get a district that makes both alloys & consumer goods, it makes little sense to split those out into two different districts for ecumenopli and could render the perk very unappealing.
 
Yeah, ringworlds and ecumenopoli are the only area that might provide a slight snag because they need to be setup so that they are worth doing. I'd argue both might already be there, at least ringworld districts, by the number of jobs and resources they provide, which makes them more efficient by admin capacity. I'm not sure the devs want to try something where district get upgraded to produce more, have more jobs, but then require strategic resources. So the tricky spot for non-ecumenopli industrial districts would be to ensure they aren't to a point where they are more efficient than ecumenopli districts nor close enough. Obviously, such a change would warrant redoing ecumenopoli districts, since if regular planets get a district that makes both alloys & consumer goods, it makes little sense to split those out into two different districts for ecumenopli and could render the perk very unappealing.

thats what i ment with changing ecumenopolis districts into industrial and research instead of alloy and cg
only ringworlds could become an extra alloy producing district, cause cg are already in for normal empires, but thats another point
 
I find the current system of buildings vs districts to be a little arbitrary and pointless. I really don't see what having both systems adds other than clutter.

How about making it so buildings are built inside districts. So building a new district adds not just a building slot (or more than one) but a *specific type* of building slot, so some buildings can only be built in certain districts. Perhaps the districts would add no, or not very many, jobs of their own.

Or something totally different, but something that makes districts and buildings feel more coherent, joined up, like one well designed system, would be good.
 
Very interesting experiments! Some musings about them:

- I think that the problem with having a single job providing both alloys and consumer goods is that war economies and peaceful economies end up looking up too samey. An industrial district that provides both artisans and metallurgists jobs rather than merging them into laborer might do the trick

- The whole relationship between districts, pops and buildings is kinda... hmmm, how to say it. It feels off. Pop-dependant building slots are better than district dependant building slots, that's for sure.

- Perhaps a way to solve it would be to bring back the whole "infrastructure points" stat. Make building slots dependant on the planet "infrastructure points", and make said points depend of both population and number of districts. Then again, flavour is a tricky thing to get right.

- I predict that the next DD will be about the successful experiments that will be incorporated into further game updates ;)
 
Yeah, ringworlds and ecumenopoli are the only area that might provide a slight snag because they need to be setup so that they are worth doing. I'd argue both might already be there, at least ringworld districts, by the number of jobs and resources they provide, which makes them more efficient by admin capacity. I'm not sure the devs want to try something where district get upgraded to produce more, have more jobs, but then require strategic resources. So the tricky spot for non-ecumenopli industrial districts would be to ensure they aren't to a point where they are more efficient than ecumenopli districts nor close enough. Obviously, such a change would warrant redoing ecumenopoli districts, since if regular planets get a district that makes both alloys & consumer goods, it makes little sense to split those out into two different districts for ecumenopli and could render the perk very unappealing.

I'm not really sure Ringworlds or Ecumenopoli need to feel special or more efficient, I think they just need to feel *big*! REALLY big! What separates them from normal planets is just how god-damn much of everything you can have on them (except farms on an ecumenopolis).

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing the end of the Ecumanopolis in its current form and just have it be something that happens to planets that build enough.
 
Uhh ... That's exactly, what I'm talking about: This primitive farm aka this "building" offers 10 POP-jobs, way more ones than its district-counterpart, which doesn't indicate a puny, but rather a massive structure (similar to a district) and therefore: It makes sense, that the size of a world (not an arbitrary limit of 16 for each and everyone) impacts the maximal number of its "buildings" as well as its districts.
Buildings in this game are never represented as a single entity. They are all plural.
 
Well. That's not STRICTLY true. Some of them certainly seem to be singular- the Planetary Shield comes to mind. Or the Fortress.
How do you generate a planetary shield from a single location without the planet itself blocking the shield? Of course you have multiple buildings. And the fortresses would be a network of buildings.
 
UI constraints aren't really a concern. This is AlphaMod, and I've managed to have six districts and 18 building slots.

View attachment 506264

I think it looks just fine.

(The sixth district type is the Community District, which can be swapped to an ethic-specialised district type. The Industrial District can also be swapped to something more specialised.)
Looks cool Alpha, if the devs go down this path however I'd like to see the districts grouped up more compact and maybe into categories instead of in a line. Additionally it would be nice if the building section had pages and arrows to navigate them in order to allow any number of building limits instead of always being constrained to what the UI can hold. May even be useful for ringworlds in the vanilla game.
 
To me, it makes little sense that any buildings often provide more jobs than most buildings. Even if we go with the idea that most of what happens on districts is automated. I get the impression that districts are suppose to be large strips of land, where buildings are suppose to be a single building.

In an earlier dev diary they describe buildings as vast complexes not single buildings. Personally I picture them both being similar in size with each planet able to support 16 of the vast complexes with left over space being earmarked for a variable number of districts dictated by planet size.
 
How do you generate a planetary shield from a single location without the planet itself blocking the shield? Of course you have multiple buildings.
Tell me how you generate a shield at all, and maybe I'll accept that it's impossible to do it planet-wide with only a single generator. For all we know, it works by using a single antennae to charge the atmosphere or something.
 
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