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HoI4 Dev Diary - The Imperial Japanese Navy (AAR)

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary from the frozen wasteland that is Sweden in January. Today, we will have another short AAR of a naval warfare scenario, similar to the one we did earlier about raiding and submarine warfare.


This was played as an MP game between me and Niall (@Ceebie), with me defending the Empire of Japan’s honor against Niall’s filthy American imperialists.


Starting as Japan, I immediately face a number of issues that should sound very familiar: I have very limited resources, particularly in terms of oil. This is now a much bigger issue as I can still happily build ships and airplanes and tanks, but I won’t be able to run them for free. However, if I want to upgrade my ships (and knowing Niall, I absolutely do), I will need naval experience, and China is unlikely to provide me with a lot of it. So I need to run training missions for my fleet, which gobbles up fuel at a rapid pace (I could only take out my main fleet units for a few brief weeks before the fuel situation became critical).


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At the same time, while I could trade for more oil, it will cost civilian factories which I desperately need to build up my own industry or to trade for steel to continue my military buildup. I decided to keep the trading for oil to a minimum in order to more quickly build up my industry and increase the size of my fleet.


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My first target is, of course, China, and we start the war with them in the middle of 1937. It quickly becomes apparent that I underestimate the Chinese. Fighting rages hard along the border for several weeks, and a number of naval landings that attempt to force the AI to draw troops away from the main front are quickly contained by local garrisons, but at least not pushed back into the sea. Part of the problem is that the fleets tasked with invasion support contain some of my battleships, which eat up absurd amounts of fuel, and my attempts to turn the tide through prolific use of air support eat into my fuel supplies even more.


By early 1938, we are slowly grinding forward and have managed to inflict serious casualties on the Chinese, but my fuel stockpile has shrunken to just 30 days of current use. I curtail air support to only support my main thrust and send the naval forces providing shore bombardment back to port. Progress slows, but eventually we link up with the landing forces, at least saving me from an embarrassing early defeat. The massive amounts of Land XP also allow me to run through the doctrine tree quite a bit faster than Niall could ever hope to. Sadly the war in the Pacific will not be fought on land.


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It would take until early 1941 for the Chinese to fall, even though the writing is on the wall by the middle of 1940. I blame the poor infrastructure and awful terrain in China - my leadership is, after all, beyond any reasonable doubt.


In the meantime, Niall has been quietly modernizing his fleet and has started his rearmament. While a good amount of his effort is spent on helping out the British in Europe, I have no doubt that he has something in store for me. While I was deeply engaged in managing the war in China, I received some out-of-game intelligence (Niall bragging in the kitchen that his destroyer swarms would annihilate me) that makes me realize that my fleet lacks some key capabilities. The starting Japanese light cruisers are fairly mediocre, most have been built during the 20ies and are not up to the task of winning a firefight against the likes of a Brooklyn Class cruiser with no less than 3 light cruiser battery modules. What I do have is a lot of torpedoes, and I invest a little into researching upgraded torpedoes and better launchers. The Japanese Long Lance national spirit gives me another perk, as it negates the enemy screening to an extend, which means that my torpedoes can hit his capitals even through 100% screening.


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So while I was slowly grinding my way across China, I also decided on my buildup strategy:


  • No new battleships, since they eat up a lot of fuel and I have enough to cover my carriers. However, I did later decide to build at least one Yamato-class as an insurance against Niall developing modern battleships.

  • A force of 4 light carriers. Japan starts with two (Ryujo and returning fan favourite Hosho), with two Zuhio class building. While these only carry 40 planes each, they will be used to provide cover for operations in and around the Dutch East Indies.

  • A force of 4 fleet carriers, with another force of 4 joining later. Akagi and Kaga will be joined by 2 more Soryu class carriers and form the main strike force in the Central Pacific.

  • A heavy emphasis on air defense and torpedoes. After researching dual purpose main armaments, I design a new destroyer class with improved AA and better torpedo armament. These are joined by a quartet of light torpedo cruisers from the Japanese focus.

  • Lots and lots of Naval Bombers to damage the enemy during the approach and pick off stragglers. Once the battle is fought, his damaged ships would likely try and find a close naval base for repairs, so having naval bombers ready to attack them in port would let me finish them off.

  • Once I identified the fleet’s weakness in defense against destroyers, I also designed a version of the Mogami Class heavy cruisers dedicated to light gun support. I built another 4 of these.

Screenshot_6.jpg

The fleet’s main objective, however, is to provide support for landings to seize resource rich areas in the Dutch East Indies. To protect the sea lanes to and from these islands, I will need to secure the Philippines, and that is where things get a little dicey.


While I have little doubt that my forces can take over Sumatra, Java and Borneo, Malaya might be a tough nut to crack, and I know that Niall has already started to fortify the Philippines. I have researched amphibious armor well in advance and with China now pacified, I start to turn up production in an attempt to give my marines a bit more punch and hopefully allow me to seize a foothold even against heavy opposition.

Screenshot_16.jpg

Thinking ahead, I also research improved naval bombers and the next generation of carrier planes. Once my main objectives are secured, I will use swarms of naval bombers to hold them down while I move my fleets to stage two and take on Australia.


To give myself some more time to buildup, I delay my attack on the US until early 1942. This allows me to form a second strike force of two fleet carriers (Shokaku and Zuikaku, both repeat Soryus as I was unable to scrape together enough XP to design an upgraded carrier).


The first battles are very encouraging. Whenever my patrols find one of his scouting units, my strike fleets sortie and make short work of them, Niall’s vaunted Destroyer swarms being no match for my upgraded cruisers and destroyers. I am somewhat confident that I can attrit his screening forces faster than he can replace them, which would eventually force his fleet to remain in port or eat absurd numbers of torpedoes.

Screenshot_11.jpg


Things quickly turn a little chaotic as my strike fleets and patrols intercept a number of troop convoys. While I first thought that these were going to the Philippines, they instead turn out to be trying to seize islands in the Central Pacific. Things don’t go well for him, as he has decided to keep his battleships and carriers on strike duty instead of covering his invasion convoys. Several divisions are effectively destroyed at sea, and the remains fail to gain any footholds.


At the same time, my invasions in the DEI, supported by the old battleships Ise and Hyuga, have run into stiff opposition while attempting to land in Borneo. I shift some tactical bombers into the theater to help break the stalemate, and we are starting to make progress. The two-pronged assault succeeds in establishing a foothold, but it is a reminder that Niall has not been idle and is ready to fight for every inch of ground in this vital area.

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While my marines still struggle to make landfall in the Philippines, a bigger drama unfolds in the Bismarck Sea. Niall has finally unleashed his main strike force, after one of his patrols found my carrier fleet.


The Battle of the Bismarck Sea does not go particularly well for the Imperial Navy. With several battleships detached for minor repairs, the US Navy breaks through my screening units and manages to do an end run on my carriers, sinking all four for no capital ship loses on their side. The survivors straggle home, many ships badly damaged during the ferocious engagement as my battle line attempted to screen against the full might of the US battlefleet.

Screenshot_8.jpg

However, Niall’s victory has come at a steep cost. Most of his battlefleet is badly damaged, and he has nothing to follow his success up with. More than that, I still have 6 carriers in reserve (2 fleet, 4 light), and several hundred naval bombers scouring the Bismarck Sea means that he has to risk his battleships again to sail them to safer harbours for repairs. Several of them take further damage as they retreat, many of them out of the battle for almost a year.

Screenshot_15.jpg

While Niall has blunted my offensive power quite severely, he has nothing to interfere with in my operations in the DEI, which were the main objective. Trying to use the Philippines as an unsinkable aircraft carrier has become next to impossible as trying to supply it with fuel would cost him too many convoys and tank his war support. The Japanese conquest of the southern resource area won’t quite be the lightning strike it was in history, but it is as inevitable as the rising of the sun.

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With hindsight, my performance in the naval war thus far comes down to:

  • Lack of radar allowing Niall to get the drop on me in a critical moment

  • Lack of training due to fuel concerns

  • Insufficient coverage of the seazones with naval bombers failing to disrupt the enemy on the approach

  • Not enough screening vessels to protect my carriers against his battle fleet. Although Yamato sunk several ships and survived to fight another day, spending the same amount of 3 heavy cruisers would likely have yielded better results

  • Good performance of my light forces when engaged on equal terms

That is all for today. Tune in at 1600 CET for another stream with an indepth look at fuel.
 
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I get what you're saying, quality over quantity. But there's also a thing known as over-engineering, which is especially negative when many of your consumers paid for your product about a year ago. Love Paradox games, dlc, and even dev teams. But it's starting to get to a critical point, for me at-least and I think for all of those who are asking for a release date. It really doesn't inspire confidence when they won't even give us that.
 
I get what you're saying, quality over quantity. But there's also a thing known as over-engineering, which is especially negative when many of your consumers paid for your product about a year ago. Love Paradox games, dlc, and even dev teams. But it's starting to get to a critical point, for me at-least and I think for all of those who are asking for a release date. It really doesn't inspire confidence when they won't even give us that.
I've been a Fan since EU4 release and right now is the most disappointed I have been in Paradox as a whole, between EU4 and Stellaris being shoved out the door before Christmas and going on Holiday for 3 weeks and HoI4 Monetizing map pings and a mini-map. CK2 Monks and Mystics also had a lot of drama for having little content (it had a lot but all were hidden behind event trees).

I honestly believe Paradox going publicly traded is starting to show. They are pushing out so much content too quickly. Imperator is getting to the final stages and Martin has moved to a "secret project" which suggests to me a new game. I'm starting to worry their quality will keep slipping.
 
I'm starting to worry their quality will keep slipping.

Paradox have never released high quality games if you by quality mean bugfree.

For HoI3 for example defensiveness/breakthrough stats didn't do anything at all for 2 years after release and no one noticed that half the techs were useless, and when it was released the AI literally didn't use ships and invasion convoys had infinite range. My first few games of playing the HoI3 release demo I could invade USA playing as Germany before end of 1939 when the game started at 1:st of September 1939 ( Danzig ), that's how bugfree the AI was.

Alot of these stuff you also had to pay for an expansion to get fixed. There was no free patch accompanying expansions, so bugs that were not fixed a few weeks after release of the game/expansion you would need to pay for getting fixed.

If you been with Paradox from the start, and compare quality objectively it has improved massively.
 
Saying that it's a disaster there is no Pearl harbor in HoI4 is a bit like saying that it's a disaster there is no guarantee the German 6:th army will be encircled and destroyer in Stalingrad in HoI4.

Instead of complaining about lack of hardcoded events, NFs or decisions, we should be asking for game mechanics that make these situations more likely and effective moves if a historical path is followed. Where are the mechanics that have it make sense for USA to base their fleet at Pearl harbor as a deterrent or Political statement, that prevents USA from fortifying the entire Pacific and that makes an historical surprise attack a logical path for Japan to take?

Mechanics like:
  • Airplanes on the ground can be destroyed in large numbers when a nation at peace is surprise attacked by Axis aggressors ( Like in Soviet or for USA )
  • Port/Airbase Strikes by Carriers are prepared like invasions ( hit hard but once, instead of small attacks several times per day ) and can be launched as an opening move when declaring war
  • Such missions are coordinated automatically by the game to all hit their targets at the same time, or to progress to a "launch point" close to the target and wait for Declaration of War
  • It is possible to use decryption, espionage or scouting by air/submarines to locate enemy warships at port so you know where to target portstrike missions
  • Political and Strategic reasons that cause USA to base lots of warships in their Main Pacific base at Oahu
  • Fuel situation in Japan that mean an embargo from allied oil will drive Japan towards securing their own source of oil
  • Historical Limitations to how much USA can fortify the Philippines and Pacific islands without public opinion calling it wasteful and unnecessarily provocative.
  • Historical Limitations to how many divisions USA can pull from defense of continental US Cities leaving USA empty and undefended to defend Pacific islands or colonies of little value.
  • Logistics mean it doesn't make alot of sense for Japan to attempt to invade Oahu, but that they instead can invade 10 times more divisions towards other targets 10 times closer to their home bases

These are just a few examples. There are alot of game mechanics that could promote a more historical flow and events more similar to historical ones in a flexible and dynamic way instead of hardcoded/scripted to happen identical to history.
Really good idea.
Something i was thinking from a while but its imposible to mod but could be a good idea to add is something as military precense in several ways.
- Disarm a country to ferw units (like usa or germany) should have effects as reduce stability and make neightbour countries posible as least make border wars to core states.
- In naval and airwings from UK, FRANCE, USA and JAPAN, the power proyection should be visible in some way im not sure, at usa have to have a reason for get units in perl harbour similar as garrison. A non garrison region or island or a naval zones next to it with no units neat should hurt someway the country. Mybe affect commercial and puppuet advantages. But is sometging complex i understand it.
- A very important thing i dont see anyplace is the effect of surprice attack in declatation of war, for example if its a declaration by focus (no by the slower proces of justification), defender should have an idea for a week mybe that reduce military capacity: -25% defenss, -25% speed, -60% breaktrought, - 20% org, at least in poland, holland and belgium would be a good idea.
 
Let's put it like that:

MTG will be a turning point for HOI4, with 2 possible outcomes:

  • A) it will redeem the game
or
  • B) AI won't handle fuel and naval changes, devs won't have corrected the bugs in the bugforum, ... -> HOI4 will keep being a disappointing game forever
 
Hello,

will you fix the ressources,too?

Will you create decision for USA to create Saudi Aramco cause the first oil was found in 1938 in Saudi Arabia (seventh drill site in Dhahran in 1938, a well referred to as Dammam No. 7) further info can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco

So in my opinion in 1936 Sausi Arabia oil = 0
If USA decides to create and search for oil it can be found aound 1938, ........and USA might get 50-75% in exchange for guarantee or something like this.

Dont know , lot of other ressources should be fixed,too.

The South pacific islands have around 150 chrom for france, seems for me also completely unrealistic.

Q: Can anyone tell how i can change the ressources for creating a MOD?

Thanks in advance for your help
 
You seem very angry about things you had nothing to do with. Maybe practice mindfulness?
Seems to me as though you didn’t read my later posts, otherwise you wouldn’t have needed to post this.
 
Hello again,

ITALY warship design & Pugliese torpedo defense system.......

Will it be possible (maybe if solo that the AI does equip all "big" italy vessels might be equiped with this system. Of course it was the biggest error in ship design before & during ww2.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugliese-Torpedoverteidigungssystem

The system itself look like a good choice but in real fight it was a big big mistake in ship design.

Usually Battleship class ships can survive 2-5 full torpedo hits,, but ships equiped with this system usually sink by 1 torpedo hit. Of course the
Pugliese torpedo defense system can NOT BE REMOVED if installed.....


For further info please read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littorio-class_battleship

as well as http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-047.php
 
Let's put it like that:

MTG will be a turning point for HOI4, with 2 possible outcomes:

  • A) it will redeem the game
or
  • B) AI won't handle fuel and naval changes, devs won't have corrected the bugs in the bugforum, ... -> HOI4 will keep being a disappointing game forever
I really hope PDX gets a handle on AI issues generally since there are similar problems in EUIV. Can't wait for the Allied AI tokeep its entire airforce up all the time to the point where its fuel runs out by 41 and naval simply won't happen. Even the shitty AI in 'Command & Conquer - Red Alert'would gradually if slowly, learn from the player (and eventually even BUILD a freaking naval yard, believe it or not).
 
Ok so everyone just read THIS post of mine so that everything beforehand can be settled. I apologize for any confusion or aggravation I may have caused as I mean no disrespect and I am happy with MTG now just to clear things up so I hope we have no further disputes on this DD between myself and the other members involved so thank you for your patience as it is appreciated and have a good day.
 
The system itself look like a good choice but in real fight it was a big big mistake in ship design.
Usually Battleship class ships can survive 2-5 full torpedo hits,, but ships equiped with this system usually sink by 1 torpedo hit. Of course the
Pugliese torpedo defense system can NOT BE REMOVED if installed.....


For further info please read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littorio-class_battleship

as well as http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-047.php

Thanks for sharing that one. I always wondered what was wrong with the Italian navy.

Would be good to model some kind of political decision or re-design cost around this, since it is clearly one of the biggest problems with the Italians in the Mediterranean.
 
To Paradox. I share the concerns of the amount of time you have now spent on this update. We are all for and we all like all these features, but recalling back my feeling is that you are going through an incredible feature creep (having seen a lot new stuff quite recently) and the amount of effort needed to make this release ready is not small. I really hope you get this one right, because the whole community will blow up otherwise. I hope some effort on fixing of the battle system has been spent, since otherwise the overall after game feeling one gets is that of having played WWII Sim City only to find whole armies getting killed by divisions going on front line Railroad Tycoon or either not fighting at all or fighting in the wrong place with some quite frankly hair raising pathing to get there.
 
Oh I almost forgot to say it but Japan beat this
1024px-US_fleet_at_Majuro_Atoll_1944.jpg

Just one of the many fleets of the United States of America.

EDIT: I didn’t mean it like Japan beat this fleet but like Japan couldn’t beat this power.
 
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Just mod in the event if you want it, or make a separate post. I feel like this AAR is being hijacked. Pearl harbor debate should be in a different thread.
Look a few comments above and you’ll notice that I did in fact end the Pearl Harbor debate for myself and hopefully others as well.
 
If there's feature creep, one reason could be something is taking longer than expected, and whoever not assitned to fixing that thing are given new tasks to have something to do?
 
Hello again,

today we should think about "Romanian(as part of axis) flotilla and the first EU-wide transportation river network:

IF:

Austria (part of Axis or occupied)
Yugoslavia (part of Axis or occupied)
Hungary (part of Axis or occupied)
Romania (part of Axis or occupied)

AND IF:

Rhine river
Main river
Donau river

100% under Axis control

THEN

Romania /Germany could decide to create the 30th U-boat flotilla for the black sea. It need around 1 year to transfer 6 small submarine from baltic sea to Black Sea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30th_U-boat_Flotilla

it happened in real ww2 is still miss this decision. I know the difficulties for programming ship transfers but if i play as New Zealand i can also demand 2 light cruisers from UK.
Any plans for this decision to create the 30th U-Boat Flotilla(as germany or axis romania)?
 
For HoI3 for example defensiveness/breakthrough stats didn't do anything at all for 2 years after release and no one noticed that half the techs were useless

Oh hey, I was the one of the people who discovered that bug.

- Disarm a country to ferw units (like usa or germany) should have effects as reduce stability and make neightbour countries posible as least make border wars to core states.

The problem with this is that none of the majors starts with cores in other states, and only a few have claims.
 
From what I can remember from previous DDs

Light guns can target things in the first rank.
Heavy guns can target things in the second rank
Torpedoes can target things in the third rank (depending on level of cover supplied by first two ranks - 4:1:1 for perfect cover I think).

Transports and Carriers go in the third ranks, heavies in the second, screens in the first. (as each rank gets cleared it allows units to attack the one behind - so light guns can sink transports only so long as they have no escorts IIRC)

I'm not sure there is range beyond that. It's more regimented than previously but at least allows fleets to act as fleets rather than individual ships.
One of the things still not covered in fleet action against each other is carrier vs carrier battles. I cannot think of any carrier vs carrier battle that had their surface ships engaging with each other. Carrier fleets should stand off from each other, and there really should be a carrier strike attack, that is separate from any other attack in which a fleet sends it's attack force against another fleet and that fleet has to defend against the strike.

For a turn based game that came out in 1993, Pacific War had this in it. I loved this carrier battle mechanic in that old game. A strike against your or your enemy fleet if yours or any of the enemy carriers survived the fight, would strike back on the enemy carrier fleet.

They already have a mechanic that is similar to this, the port strike. Just make it so the fleet is out in the open where maneuverability, AA, and CAP exists to defend the fleet. If you spot an enemy fleet and have carriers nearby, just order a carrier strike on that fleet. In this case, the two fleets wouldn't engage in a surface fight.

Otherwise we are still back in the old way of naval combat where every carrier fleet that engages another carrier fleet has its battleships, cruisers, and destroyers engage each other.