Hearts of Iron IV - 28th Development Diary - Weather & Terrain

[Cardus]

For surprise attacks perhaps when we are talking guerrilla style stuff. in HOI4 japanese AI will probably go down the Battleplan/Infiltration route which give their troops recon bonuses (hence surprise ability to counter enemy tactics) as well as better attack ability at night to simulate US vs JAP

Thank you very much for the explanation and from my side I can say that I am happy with it

Regarding winter equipment did you see my earlier question?

As far as I can remember the Italian general Messe bought winter clothes in summer and Italians didn't suffer the frostbite as the Germans.

 

[Nelfe]

There is no winter clothing research as such. Thats basically common sense and player would always use perfect hindsight and not fight in winter unprepared. We are evil, so you'll need to actually gain those winter specialist traits through fighting in cold weather. No shortcuts.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

But soldiers need winter clothing anyways, hindsight or no hindsight. Just like soldiers need lighter clothing in North Africa.

 

[podcat]

Thank you very much for the explanation and from my side I can say that I am happy with it

Regarding winter equipment did you see my earlier question?

My argument still hold though. No sane player will ignore winter equipment so why make it a choice? This is a gameplay thing, and has nothing to do with historicity or realism.

btw I am a bit hazy on german winter gear, but afaik it wasn't lack of gear it was weapons and ammo being prioritized first on very limited supply routes that was the issue, not that someone completely forgot that people need coats in winter. I could be wrong tho, was along time since I read up on it.

 

[podcat]

But soldiers need winter clothing anyways, hindsight or no hindsight. Just like soldiers need lighter clothing in North Africa.

Of course, all that is included in the packages of infantry equipment you produce. tougher terrain with more attrition (like in cold winter) = need more packages.

I'm sure some mod will break it down into lots of details (we must have jungle boots be separate!) but I dont think thats something the average player wants to deal with when they are busy fighting on the map.

its an abstraction for gameplays sake.

 

[v.Falkenhayn]

Never seen so many people, who were happy about mud :-D (myself included). I agree on almost everything here.

The only issue ,I see, is there should be more "air cover" ("protection against enemy air superiority") in woods/hills/mountains, for it is extremely hard to spot targets in forest, as well as try to direct planes onto them, since there are not many distinct points of terrain to guide on (whoever tried learning artillery/air fire support directing, will understand).

Problem in hilly/mountainous terrain is it's extremely hard to hit anything, because of change in altitude and stiff surface, not withstanding the fact of altitude problems for aircraft themselves (i.e. difficult navigation and drop in performance).

Paradox, please, reconsider "air superiority defence" values for terrain types towards increasing them in difficult terrain.

I don't know of your plans for penalties/mechanics of air attack in difficult terrain (we may need a DD for that), but I suggest the following:
1) forest 50% air defence (germans have to really be thankful to hedgerows and woods in Normandy or they'd have been erased from the face of earth by allied air power, not unlike Panzer Lehr division that got hit by an armada of bombers and ceased to exist);
2) jungle 75% air defence (remember those pesky japanese and more recently red vietnamese escaping US airpower);
3) hills 25%;
4) mountains 35%
5) urban 10%

As well, I'd like to suggest the idea of "air superiority defence" penalty for units while strategically redeploying, since they are in marching order tied to roads and present an absolutely great target. In such cases, terrain "air superiority protection" value should be cut by 3 times (maybe 2, just to be kind to axis).

P.S. I shall be looking forward to any ideas on this matter (as well as constructive criticism) and, of course, to podcat's comments, that are always helpful.

 

[Cardus]

My argument still hold though. No sane player will ignore winter equipment so why make it a choice? This is a gameplay thing, and has nothing to do with historicity or realism.

btw I am a bit hazy on german winter gear, but afaik it wasn't lack of gear it was weapons and ammo being prioritized first on very limited supply routes that was the issue, not that someone completely forgot that people need coats in winter. I could be wrong tho, was along time since I read up on it.

I understand your first objection and you are right. That winter things went wrong but the idea is to have a game in which things should develop exactly as they happened or the player has a choice?
Regarding your second comment as far as I can remember the lack of winter equipment was not because of limited supplies. I recall a comment on Guderian's book about it but I need to retrieve that first.

Anyway, let's say you are right, what about a choice between supplying the army with ammunition vs winter equipment?

 

[mursolini]

We're talking about WW1, there was no Leningrad, for example.

Leningrad existed since 1700s. So it was called St.Petersburg, and was the capital of Russia and was the place where Revolution started (hence called Leningrad afterwards). Does that change anything concerning Germans and Russian winter?

 

[afghanrabbit]

Any chance we could see snow/rain affect rivers creating floods the way they create mud?

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

Of course, all that is included in the packages of infantry equipment you produce. tougher terrain with more attrition (like in cold winter) = need more packages.

I'm sure some mod will break it down into lots of details (we must have jungle boots be separate!) but I dont think thats something the average player wants to deal with when they are busy fighting on the map.

its an abstraction for gameplays sake.

ok thanks, now i understand the situation better.

 

[ASPGolan]

As long as the weather is moddable, I also don't care that the current states are limited.
I don't understand what role wind plays in all of this and it seems like if it would be in the game it would create those intermediate states between light rain and storm and between light snow fall and blizzard.

 

[Wing_008]

Yes, but same applies to attacking force. It is impossible to call in defensive artillery strikes, nor do fortification actually help, as their main advantage is allowing to withstand long-range fire, something close to useless in forest. Not to mention the option to simply start a forest fire.

not really, ambush tactics in jungle or forest worked very well historically, it can provide ample camouflage and and material with which to build fortifications, its difficult to detect mines and booby traps all of which has a severe effect on morale

 

[ringhloth]

As well, I'd like to suggest the idea of "air superiority defence" penalty for units while strategically redeploying, since they are in marching order tied to roads and present an absolutely great target. In such cases, terrain "air superiority protection" value should be cut by 3 times (maybe 2, just to be kind to axis).

There's a penalty to movement when you don't have air superiority (or maybe caused by bombing, I don't recall) that represents the difficulty of moving without air cover. And does it better, IMO, because I'd rather have my commanders move slower than have their trains constantly be strafed.

 

[Gamer_1745]

btw I am a bit hazy on german winter gear, but afaik it wasn't lack of gear it was weapons and ammo being prioritized first on very limited supply routes that was the issue, not that someone completely forgot that people need coats in winter. I could be wrong tho, was along time since I read up on it.

It was summer weight uniforms, no gloves or mittens and no Anti-Freeze for tucks or tanks. Ammo was mostly in short supply because of driving in snow conditions and the lack of Anti-freeze for the trucks.

My argument still hold though. No sane player will ignore winter equipment so why make it a choice? This is a gameplay thing, and has nothing to do with historicity or realism.

Yes, you have a good point and my concern is not trying to get you to change your mind for the base game, just what can be modded (we(all of us) are never fully agree on everything) but I am looking more at cost management. A 20% increase in production cost for all the division involved in Barbarossa would be a major thing and some other area of production would need to be less (say fewer aircraft). Players would need to make choices.

 

[newtlord]

btw I am a bit hazy on german winter gear, but afaik it wasn't lack of gear it was weapons and ammo being prioritized first on very limited supply routes that was the issue, not that someone completely forgot that people need coats in winter. I could be wrong tho, was along time since I read up on it.

If that's true, wouldn't it be better to model this logistical difficulty, rather than force everyone to completely forget about winter clothing until their soldiers start freezing?

 

[Nelfe]

Of course, all that is included in the packages of infantry equipment you produce. tougher terrain with more attrition (like in cold winter) = need more packages.

I'm sure some mod will break it down into lots of details (we must have jungle boots be separate!) but I dont think thats something the average player wants to deal with when they are busy fighting on the map.

its an abstraction for gameplays sake.

So we can add through a mod an equipment that reduce attrition during winter ?

 

[Cardus]

From Panzer Leader by Guderian

I: 'Naturally it is my duty to lessen the suffering of my soldiers so far as that lies within my power. But it is hard when the men have even now not yet received their winter clothing and the greater part of the infantry are still going about in denim uniforms. Boots, vests, gloves, woollen helmets are either non-existent or else are hopelessly worn out.'

Hitler shouted: 'That is not true. The Quartermaster- General informed me that the winter clothing had been issued.'

I: 'I dare say it has been issued, but it has never arrived. I have made it my business to find out what has happened to it. At present it is in Warsaw station, where it has been for the last several weeks, since it cannot be sent on owing to a lack of locomotives and obstructions to the lines. Our requests that it be forwarded in September and October were bluntly refused. Now it's too late.'

The Quartermaster-General was sent for and had to admit that what I had said was correct. Goebbels' campaign that Christmas for clothes for the soldiers was a result of this conversation. The clothes thus collected did not actually reach the soldiers during the winter of 1941-42.

 

[Praetori]

So, you ask for mechanics but can`t even give a figure of how much the impact really was?

From 1-100% You could find any figure as it's highly dependent on the circumstances. I wouldn't want Paradox to trust what's written in the forum in any case when it comes to hard-facts as they're pretty slick in doing their own research (as well as having their own experiences). There are researchers out there that does a mighty fine job of actually doing their job so that us ordinary folk don't have to dig through the archives and read every actual war-diaries of divisions and doctors.

Nobody disputed that, but those are not combat casualties. Also, can you get the rate of how exactly much better?

If memory serves me right close to 60% of the German casualties in December of 41' was due to weather/exposure (although most were operational-losses rather than "dead") and about 2/3rds of that number were from units that was mobile up to the Russian counter-offensive. Now I'm not stating that ALL of those units were not/less dug-in than on other fronts and the non-combat attrition-rates are also naturally higher in units in frequent combat due to a lack of hygiene, food, rest etc but the numbers are still high enough that one cannot readily disregard them as just a fluke.
I would recommend reading Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis by Nigel Askey for a thorough breakdown on German casualty-rates but I'm not going to start digging through my library just to bring you quotes. You can believe the statement or disregard it as you please.

So, how much of a difference does difference in temperature make? I would appreciate an answer in form of casualties increase = f(temperature, dig-in time);

It's not only about temperature but moisture, air-pressure, temperature, equipment, training, logistics/food/hygiene, lodging, officers, terrain, enemy actions etc etc etc and it's not a battlefield simulation we're talking about but a strategy-game. It might not even make sense to use historical/accurate figures due to game-play reasons and in any case a game on the operational/strategic level don't need to delve into casualty modifiers on that level of depth. I'm not trying to tell PDS HOW to develop a game (since they're clearly better at it than me) but there's not a word about digging-in/entrenchment in the new terrain-modifiers system and that is the reason I asked.

 

[FieldMedic]

This is why we need a supply lines DD

 

[v.Falkenhayn]

Very nice thick DD !

1) Other than terrain modifiers, will weather modifiers be influenced by the stance of your land units ? Shouldn't an attacking infantry division be more impacted by a snowy weather than a defensive one ?

2) Maybe I didn't understand well the handling of air units depending on weather : seriously, you will not make us able to program, say, a heavy bombers group, when I have so few that I couldn't tolerate extra attrition, on a specific airbase to :
Start the mission when the known weather in the area is :
- Clear skies
- Rain
Abort any bombing mission when the known weather in the area is :
- Strom
- Snow
- and even worse
Please let us toggle some weather buttons in order to to make our perations fit exactly what we want.

3) Not any forecast ??
Please let us have at least a group of weathermen able to tell us if we can expect same, worst or better weather in a given area... : When we select a (strategic so ?) region, we have a little mark where we can see it...

In my opinion, defending side should be able to use difficult terrain and some types bad weather to their advantage.