Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024

[Lerrix04]

Those are some beautiful maps, but I have a small critique for Mark.
First, Altena was (and still is) the town with a castle in it (Burg Altena), therefore I can understand why you took this town when there are larger ones in the vicinity.
But there are also two towns/a small city not far from Altena, which were somewhat important for the Mark, probably even more important than Altena. Those were Iserlohn and Hemer. And Iserlohn especially, as the name literally translates to "Iron Forest", and this iron was mined there since the middle ages. (The "Mine" is still there, it's called "Felsenmeer" and it's really cool). To add to that, it also had a strong metal industry and (if I remember correctly) they were specialists in making chainmail, as a chainmail shirt from Iserlohn was displayed in the London Tower for some time.

But yeah, apart from that it's a fantastic map and I'm so hyped to play someday

 

[Nikicaga]

I'd first like to commend you on the incredible map, its a huge improvement on how previous Paradox games have represented the region!

Secondly, I'd repeat some of the suggestions in the thread, including the inclusion of important cities such as Haarlem, Tiel and Amersfoort, the county of Bentheim and the redrawing of Frisia and Gelderland, as well as replacing Makkum with Sneek and Emmen with Meppel.

Finally, I'd like to make some further suggestions I haven't seen yet as well. As I note within the proposals, they're not all equally important, however.

1. Wolvega (Stellingwerfen)
Between Friesland (where it is today) and Overijsel, the region of Stellingwerfen was de jure governed by Utrecht but was in practice an independent peasant state for a long time, including in 1337. Despite the lack of major cities, I believe this is worth representing due to its size and unique situation

As others have stated, Groningen should be an independent city in this period. It also clashed with Utrecht over Drenthe as well, as the later was largely settled by colonists from Groningen.

2. Ravenstein/ Herpen
A small lordship just to the west of Cuijk, in the northeast of the current Hertogenbosch location. The lordship of Herpen (which after its founding in 1360 became the better Land of Ravenstein) was small, but was an enclave of other states - in 1337 it was held by the Valkenburgs of Limburg, and later for a long time by the Duchy of Cleves and Brandenburg, only becoming part of the Netherlands in the 1630s. This might be a bit too small to add, but it is certainly a worthy addition from a geopolitical standpoint

3. Urk
You mention that you (correctly) sank Flevoland as it's a 20th century creation. However, not ALL of Flevoland was underwater. The town of Urk used to be an island, the only part of the province to exist in the game period, alongside some smaller islands. This made Urk quite isolated from the rest of Dutch culture, which continues even to this day. Politically it was still an independent lordship in 1337, and would fall vassal to Utrecht and Holland later. The main issue here is the small size of the islands before land reclamation - but the Dutch coast is already a big compromise


4. Texel
I find it sad that all of the Dutch islands outside of Middleburg (which should in this period be fully separated from the mainland!) are here represented as part of mainland locations. This is perhaps the least historically important location(s) I'm suggesting, but players love islands, and they offer interesting alternative history options - say, England or Denmark seizing and island to project power and keep the Dutch in check. The biggest and most populous, and therefore the most obvious addition is Texel, a part of West Friesland already conquered by Holland by 1337. Texel had city rights and certain autonomy, and saw numerous naval engagements nearby. Would also include Vlieland. Other island locations might be possible (such as Terschelling/Wexalia), but they're not nearly as large or important.

What's with the Breda location borders? I assume that there's a Bergen op Zoom province on the coast there that's not clear to see, because otherwise those would be awful borders and Bergen should be added.

There are also small lordship of Arkel and Altena (in the towns of Gorinchem and Werkendam) between Tiel and Dordrecht, but they are probably too small to implement - tho a small location of Gorinchem approximating them could be possible

I have seen people correctly point out that the current Roermond location is mostly in Germany and that it should be replaced with Heinsberg (there are other cases of this too, i.e. Arlon location mostly being in modern Luxembourg despite the city now being Belgian). If Heinsberg is added, I'd still keep Roermond by shifting it more to the west and taking from Weert and Maastricht due to its importance. Weert also seems necessary to keep as it represents the independent lordships there and in Hoorn/Horne and was a city in its own right.

There are also other important cities in the Netherlands, such as Delft and Kempen people mentioned already, but they might be too close to other locations that can't be replaced- if they can be fit nicely, I'd be quite happy to see them regardless.

5. Sluis/Terneuzen
Hulst may be split in two, creating Sluis/Terneuzen in the west. It's not the wealthiest part of the low countries, but it would allow for the correct Holy Roman Empire borders, which include Hulst and the easternmost parts of modern Dutch Flanders, but not the rest of it.

6 (&6.5). Huy/Verviers
The lands surrounding Liege were the wealthiest in modern Walloonia throughout the period, especially as they became some of the first places in continental Europe to industrialize. While it's not wrong, I'm surprised to see them represented by just one location.

That's why I'd suggest adding one (or both!) of Huy and Verviers. Verviers was a large cloth manufacturing centre and later one of the first true industrial cities in Europe. Verviers (and Theux) were also the centres of the Marquessate of Franchimont, a separate lordship within the Prince-Bishopric's lands.

Huy too was a big centre of manufacturing (mostly metallurgy and cloth) and later an industrial centre, and the capital of its own county within Liège.

Despite Walcourt being slightly bigger today, Couvin seems like a much better location to represent the southwestern parts of P-B of Liège for this time period, as it was one of its bonne-villes.

In addition to this, Thuin should be a part of Liège as well (though with a core/claim from Hainaut - they tried to unsuccessfully conquer it multiple times!).

EDIT: As Corbalte pointed out, it's also possible to split Thuin off Walcourt/Couvin and place Chimay in its current location - I approve as it would strengthen both Liege and Hainaut.

As others have pointed out, Maasmechelen is an odd choice for the location capital - I would replace it with Tongeren (oldest city in Belgium, also (alongside Sint Truiden) owned directly by Liege rather than being part of the Loon vassal) or Borgloon (gives the name to the county).

Masseik would also be a better location name than Lommel, as it was a more important city throughout the period - and indeed Lommel was not a part of the County of Loon/Liège at all, being owned by Brabant and later The Netherlands.

Another location that could be added between Dinant and Bouillon would be Orchimont, which would be owned by Luxembourg and separate Bouillon from the rest of the P-B Liege.

7. Enghien
A small but important location, the Dukes of Enghien held an outsized role in France later in the period - though their seat of power was close to Paris, and they were only tangentially related to the original counts of Enghien. Enghien was still a Luxembourgian and French enclave for much of the time period, and was also a wealthy tapestry weaving centre.

8. & 9. Ath & Nivelles
Even with Enghien split, Mons is a rather large location, and so is Wavre in modern Walloon Brabant. The two most important cities not represented now are Ath in Hainaut - a city of over 5000 people in the early 15th century and a rich trade and manufacturing centre, and Nivelles in Brabant, which has throughout history been about as important as Wavre.

Diest or Tienen to the east of Leuven could also be nice additions, as would Mauberge in the east of Valenciennes in French Hainaut.

Flanders of course has many more important cities, Ronse, Dendermonde, Eeklo, Roeselare etc. but I don't see a clear need to include any. Nieuwpoort was more important than Ostende in the beginning of the game (having city rights before the later even became a town), but Ostende becomes much more important later on, so I'm not sure what the best course is there.

10. & 11. Vielsalm & Vianden
Vielsalm (between Bastogne and St. Vith) would be a nice addition as it was one of the many possessions of the House of Salm spread throughout Belgium, France and Germany, as would Vianden in Luxembourg (ruled as a separate lordship, whose original lords interestingly died out in September of 1337!). Their small size is the barrier here though. Instead of Vianden, the location itself could be called Diekirch but owned by the Vianden tag.

Chiny, as an independent lordship in 1337, makes more sense as a location than Neufchateau.

12. Duisburg
I focused mostly on the Low Countries (as I expect specific map talks on France and Germany), and the Rhineland map also looks great (especially given how difficult the region is), but I couldn't help but notice the absence of one of the region's most important cities that have been important throughout the period, Duisburg.

Adding it from the western parts of Essen would not only represent a major city (one of the largest in Germany today, once a free city and Hanseatic League member), but by 1337 it was already a part of the County of Cleves, thus giving it a well deserved buff - Cleves would come to be one of the most important players in the region, both as an independent state and as a part of Brandenburg/Prussia, but it currently owns only one location. Thus, adding Duisburg would greatly buff it and make it more likely to compete with other regional powers such as Cologne and Berg.


Hope this is not too late, and looking forward to future Map talks as well!. I'm including some maps I found helpful while writing this suggestions and previous modding.

 

[Dualninja]

Ok I am very late replying to this thread, but I'm concerned that the Frisian Islands aren't their own location, generally I don't think islands should be lumped in with locations on the mainland, unless they are very small and insignificant. But the Frisian Islands are definitely important enough to be their own locations, especially seeing as of how isolated they were from many other parts of the lowlands. Though I'm not an expert on his, nor am I Frisian, but I'd like to see 2 new locations added encompassing the Frisian Islands, looking something like this:

I do think that Islands and archipelagos should be made their own locations when possible, even if multiple islands have to be linked together, it's still better than just having them be part of the mainland. CK3 is very much guilty of this, with even places like Elba not being their own distinct baronies, and I hope Project Caesar doesn't follow this same trend.

Having many island locations is also very important for certain parts of the game, such as the Portuguese establishing their Feitorias on Islands more often than not, with many new world colonies also getting their start on islands as well, such as Roanoake island being one of the first British colonies in the U.S. Overall, I just hope that islands get the love they deserve and aren't absorbed into mainland locations when possible.

 

[DangerousAvocado]

Small issue, but it seems like some work is needed on name placement on the political maps, in particular the location map has several instances with quite bizarre placements. For example, Emdem, Hasselt, Mouzon, etc. Also some neighbours have identical colours like Wiltz and Arlon. I know it's WIP, and again not a huge issue, but I just wanted to highlight this as something I'd like to see improved before launch.

 

[Fritzz Von Habsburg]

We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days.

I understand you guys opted fot an intermediate level (groupings), but i find the naming a bit strange. I'm not an expert but splitting it Dutch and flemish is pretty weird. Not necessarily the flemish bit, but the dutch. This because dutch is a better term for the hole of it, so what you guys gave the name dutch and flemish. Back then it al was the low countries, it was seen as an distinct region. So it would be weird to call a part of it the name of the hole region and the other bit just a random part of it.

I would go with the first option (maybe with a split later, that happend like in our time line after the split between the north and the south) or with the intermediate level but give it the name northern and southern dutch. It is stil a modern split between them with more modern terms but you will always have this if you don't portray them as the 4 regional variants.

But still i'm not an expert, just very into the history of the lowlands.

 

[Corbalte]

I'd first like to commend you on the incredible map, its a huge improvement on how previous Paradox games have represented the region!

Secondly, I'd repeat some of the suggestions in the thread, including the inclusion of important cities such as Haarlem, Tiel and Amersfoort, the county of Bentheim and the redrawing of Frisia and Gelderland, as well as replacing Makkum with Sneek and Emmen with Meppel.

Finally, I'd like to make some further suggestions I haven't seen yet as well. As I note within the proposals, they're not all equally important, however.

1. Wolvega (Stellingwerfen)
Between Friesland (where it is today) and Overijsel, the region of Stellingwerfen was de jure governed by Utrecht but was in practice an independent peasant state for a long time, including in 1337. Despite the lack of major cities, I believe this is worth representing due to its size and unique situation

As others have stated, Groningen should be an independent city in this period. It also clashed with Utrecht over Drenthe as well, as the later was largely settled by colonists from Groningen.

2. Ravenstein/ Herpen
A small lordship just to the west of Cuijk, in the northeast of the current Hertogenbosch location. The lordship of Herpen (which after its founding in 1360 became the better Land of Ravenstein) was small, but was an enclave of other states - in 1337 it was held by the Valkenburgs of Limburg, and later for a long time by the Duchy of Cleves and Brandenburg, only becoming part of the Netherlands in the 1630s. This might be a bit too small to add, but it is certainly a worthy addition from a geopolitical standpoint

3. Urk
You mention that you (correctly) sank Flevoland as it's a 20th century creation. However, not ALL of Flevoland was underwater. The town of Urk used to be an island, the only part of the province to exist in the game period, alongside some smaller islands. This made Urk quite isolated from the rest of Dutch culture, which continues even to this day. Politically it was still an independent lordship in 1337, and would fall vassal to Utrecht and Holland later. The main issue here is the small size of the islands before land reclamation - but the Dutch coast is already a big compromise


4. Texel
I find it sad that all of the Dutch islands outside of Middleburg (which should in this period be fully separated from the mainland!) are here represented as part of mainland locations. This is perhaps the least historically important location(s) I'm suggesting, but players love islands, and they offer interesting alternative history options - say, England or Denmark seizing and island to project power and keep the Dutch in check. The biggest and most populous, and therefore the most obvious addition is Texel, a part of West Friesland already conquered by Holland by 1337. Texel had city rights and certain autonomy, and saw numerous naval engagements nearby. Would also include Vlieland. Other island locations might be possible, but they're not nearly as large or important.

What's with the Breda location borders? I assume that there's a Bergen op Zoom province on the coast there, because otherwise those would be awful borders and Bergen should be added.

5. Sluis/Terneuzen
Hulst may be split in two, creating Sluis/Terneuzen in the west. It's not the wealthiest part of the low countries, but it would allow for the correct Holy Roman Empire borders, which include Hulst and the easternmost parts of modern Dutch Flanders, but not the rest of it.

6 (&6.5). Huy/Verviers
The lands surrounding Liege were the wealthiest in modern Walloonia throughout the period, especially as they became some of the first places in continental Europe to industrialize. While it's not wrong, I'm surprised to see them represented by just one location.

That's why I'd suggest adding one (or both!) of Huy and Verviers. Verviers was a large cloth manufacturing centre and later one of the first true industrial cities in Europe. Verviers (and Theux) were also the centres of the Marquessate of Franchimont, a separate lordship within the Prince-Bishopric's lands.

Huy too was a big centre of manufacturing (mostly metallurgy and cloth) and later an industrial centre, and the capital of its own county within Liège.

Despite Walcourt being slightly bigger today, Couvin seems like a much better location to represent the southwestern parts of P-B of Liège for this time period, as it was one of its bonne-villes.

In addition to this, Thuin should be a part of Liège as well (though with a core/claim from Hainaut - they tried to unsuccessfully conquer it multiple times!)

As others have pointed out, Maasmechelen is an odd choice for the location capital - I would replace it with Tongeren (oldest city in Belgium, also (alongside Sint Truiden) owned directly by Liege rather than being part of the Loon vassal) or Borgloon (gives the name to the county).

Masseik would also be a better location name than Lommel, as it was a more important city throughout the period - and indeed Lommel was not a part of the County of Loon/Liège at all, being owned by Brabant and later The Netherlands.

Another location that could be added between Dinant and Bouillon would be Orchimont, which would be owned by Luxembourg and separate Bouillon from the rest of the P-B Liege.

7. Enghien
A small but important location, the Dukes of Enghien held an outsized role in France later in the period - though their seat of power was close to Paris, and they were only tangentially related to the original counts of Enghien. Enghien was still a Luxembourgian and French enclave for much of the time period, and was also a wealthy tapestry weaving centre.

8. & 9. Ath & Nivelles
Even with Enghien split, Mons is a rather large location, and so is Wavre in modern Walloon Brabant. The two most important cities not represented now are Ath in Hainaut - a city of over 5000 people in the early 15th century and a rich trade and manufacturing centre, and Nivelles in Brabant, which has throughout history been about as important as Wavre.

Diest or Tienen to the east of Leuven could also be nice additions, as would Mauberge in the east of Valenciennes in French Hainaut.

Flanders of course has many more important cities, Ronse, Dendermonde, Eeklo, Roeselare etc. but I don't see a clear need to include any. Nieuwpoort was more important than Ostende in the beginning of the game (having city rights before the later even became a town), but Ostende becomes much more important later on, so I'm not sure what the best course is there.

10. & 11.
Vielsalm (between Bastogne and St. Vith) would be a nice addition as it was one of the many possessions of the House of Salm spread throughout Belgium, France and Germany, as would Vianden in Luxembourg (ruled as a separate lordship, whose original lords interestingly died out in September of 1337!). Their small size is the barrier here though.

12. Duisburg
I focused mostly on the Low Countries (as I expect specific map talks on France and Germany), and the Rhineland map also looks great (especially given how difficult the region is), but I couldn't help but notice the absence of one of the region's most important cities that have been important throughout the period, Duisburg.

Adding it from the western parts of Essen would not only represent a major city (one of the largest in Germany today, once a free city and Hanseatic League member), but by 1337 it was already a part of the County of Cleves, thus giving it a well deserved buff - Cleves would come to be one of the most important players in the region, both as an independent state and as a part of Brandenburg/Prussia, but it currently owns only one location. Thus, adding Duisburg would greatly buff it and make it more likely to compete with other regional powers such as Cologne and Berg.


Hope this is not too late, and looking forward to future Map talks as well!. I'm including some maps I found helpful while writing this suggestions and previous modding.

Thank you very much for this post ! I was going to post something about this regarding 6 to 9 !

I'll add a few things regarding Wallonia :

Namur, Sambre et Meuse, Iron :

Both Namur and Walcourt could be split in two Province for granularity consistency with the north.

Furthermore, Walcourt and/or Thuin should produce Iron. Iron mining was extensive and important in the "Entre Sambre et Meuse" region. the same could be said around the area of Liege and Verviers, but Alum also works.

Source : Source in english for iron exploitation in Wallonia

Liège and coal

Traditional coal mining was also very important in Liege. It was done as early as the XII century and started being used as an alternative to charcoal. There were many small traditional coal exploitation around the city as coal could be found on the surface. So Liege could produce coal and Vervier Alum.

Charleroi could also produce coal if it was made a location.

Source : Claude Gaier, Huit siècles de houillerie liégeoise, histoire des hommes et du charbon à Liège, Edition du Perron, Liège,
The wikipedia page is a good start but is only available in French unfortunatly.

Renaming Thuin

As was put that the quoted post, Thuin was a "good city" of Liege and doesn't quite fit in Hainaut. The suggestion he made is good, I could also simply propose to change the name from Thuin to Chimay. Chimay was a principality within Hainaut that is still well know today because of its much more recent (but very good) Trappist beer.
Thuin could still exist as a split off of Walcourt/Couvin (as Nikicaga suggested and it would indeed be a bit better).

Splitting Mons and splitting Liège

I only want to add weight to the argument made above, it is weird that Mons is such a big province compared to its surroundings.

The same can be said of Liege, it was a major city and both Vervier and Huy should be represented. Especially Huy which was the first city to have a charter for civil liberties and and important place for Liege.

Arlon is not in the right place

Arlon and its Arelerland seems to be misplaced on the map. The drawing of the borders was quite well done as it permits a good representation of Medieval borders and end game modern borders, except for Arlon (and also the east of Belgium). It should probably be a bit further west and stop in a fashion similar to the modern Begian-Luxembourg border.

Tournai

I'm not a specialist regarding the situation of Lille and Douai, but Tournai should be an independent city-state that is a direct vassal of the French King and not annexed. It was effectively a city-state.

Thanks again to the dev to allow feedback and for this good work !

 

[Mef]

12. Duisburg
I focused mostly on the Low Countries (as I expect specific map talks on France and Germany), and the Rhineland map also looks great (especially given how difficult the region is), but I couldn't help but notice the absence of one of the region's most important cities that have been important throughout the period, Duisburg.

Adding it from the western parts of Essen would not only represent a major city (one of the largest in Germany today, once a free city and Hanseatic League member), but by 1337 it was already a part of the County of Cleves, thus giving it a well deserved buff - Cleves would come to be one of the most important players in the region, both as an independent state and as a part of Brandenburg/Prussia, but it currently owns only one location. Thus, adding Duisburg would greatly buff it and make it more likely to compete with other regional powers such as Cologne and Berg.

Duisburg was part of Berg between 1314 and 1392. Also Duisburg lost all its importance after floods and the Black Death in the 14th century and also lost its access to the Rhine. So I don't know why you're calling it one of the region's most important cities that has been important throughout the period, because the period is exactly when it wasn't important...
It could be included, especially since it did switch between Berg and Cleve, but Wesel was the more important city for Cleve and Düsseldorf was more important for Berg. And Werden (i.e. Essen), an independent location, is very close as well.

 

[Focus my son]

Because

(I couldn't resist)

You little joker

 

[migdeu19]

E

I mean, of all cultures and areas being represented with a greater degree of granularity and accuracy, I would hope that Spain - where Paradox Tinto, the developers of Project Caesar, is located - and Iberia in general would be at the top of that list

I mean, of all cultures and areas being represented with a greater degree of granularity and accuracy, I would hope that Spain - where Paradox Tinto, the developers of Project Caesar, is located - and Iberia in general would be at the top of that list

Weeeeeelll, I've my fears. I mean, they have a traditional of hugely messing up cultures, and that on the Flemish area, points to that tradition quite a bit.

But i hope u are right yap

 

[Thorum]

Tournai should be an independent city-state that is a direct vassal of the French King and not annexed. It was effectively a city-state.

First of all, thank you, there definitely hasn't been as much Walloon input as I'd've expected (proportionally).

For the Tournai claim, hadn't heard that before, so did abit of googling.

From the site of the Friends of the Citadel (only in French, sorry, https://act-tournai.be/tournai/):
"En 1188, tournai dépend directement de la couronne française. "

"rattachement direct au royaume de France”

"En septembre 1513, les troupes de Maximilien d’Autriche et d’Henri VIII mettent le siège devant Tournai, alors considérée comme clef du royaume de France."

So, while this city was very important in the early middle ages, I don't think you're correct here.

 

[Corbalte]

First of all, thank you, there definitely hasn't been as much Walloon input as I'd've expected (proportionally).

For the Tournai claim, hadn't heard that before, so did abit of googling.

From the site of the Friends of the Citadel (only in French, sorry, https://act-tournai.be/tournai/):
"En 1188, tournai dépend directement de la couronne française. "

"rattachement direct au royaume de France”

"En septembre 1513, les troupes de Maximilien d’Autriche et d’Henri VIII mettent le siège devant Tournai, alors considérée comme clef du royaume de France."

So, while this city was very important in the early middle ages, I don't think you're correct here.

Thank you for discussing this respectfully ! The city of Tournai was integrated to the county of Flanders around 850. The words "dépend directement" means that it was detached from the county of Flanders, vassal of the French, to be a direct vassal themselves. You could argue that this would mean direct rule, but this hierarchy change was the result of the city (not the countryside) acquiring specific rights and legislative authority. By 1188, the city (and not the land around it, the Tournaisis) was effectively a city-State similar to German or Italian city-State. Bourgeois in the city managed their own affairs, so to speak. Tournai was the first city in the southern Netherlands to get such rights in an extensive way.

This meant communal autonomy was really important and France wouldn't have any offical representative within the city. This would continue when it was "annexed" by Charles Quint and the Spanish Netherlands, the city was de facto a vassal and not a direct posession, by the city's legislative and gouverning body.

Now of course, depending on the game system, this could be a close to 100% autonomy land or 0 autorithy land. But given its local importance and specificity regarding Flanders and France, it would be better represented as a vassal.

Source :
Nice article (in French) depicting urban phenomenon in Wallonia. You can go to page 112, it speak about Tournai

 

[Koiodoros]

Before we move on to the Iberian peninsula tomorrow, I wanted to give a few extra suggestions to improve historicity and roleplay possibility.
Zooming in on the map, it becomes obvious a lot of the territory borders are traced on a municipality map of the Netherlands, which makes it easy to draw up the suggestions I have, and in turn make it easier for the map maker to implement them.

Firstly the mistakes (as pointed out by others).

• Arnhem is located inside the current Apeldoorn territory, renaming Apeldoorn to Arnhem would fix that. The original Arnhem should be renamed Wageningen.
• Coevorden is located inside the current Emmen territory, renaming Emmen to Coevorden would fix that. The original Coevorden should be renamed to Meppel.
• Roermond is located inside the current Weert territory, renaming Weert to Roermond would fix that. The original Roermond should be renamed Heinsberg.
• The border between South Holland and Brabant is based on the greatest size of Holland but seems to overshoot a little bit. I would reduce the chunk out of Brabant bij half and give that area to Dordrecht instead of Rotterdam (which it had closer ties with).

Secondly renames (When a city was more influential during the time period than the original one):

• Rename ‘s-Gravenhage to Delft.
• Rename Doetinchem to Bredevoort.
• Rename Enschede to Oldenzaal.
• Rename Wedde to Winschoten.
• Rename Makkum to Sneek.
• Rename Cuijk to Grave

Thirdly border changes and additions (picture comparing current state to proposed state):
Friesland:

These changes are mostly based on Pbhuh and other's posts on the province.
Or alternatively, more historically accurate and presenting the region better, but with a smaller Sneek (based on Henk12310's and Smergpzrk's suggestions). This location should definitely get livestock, because it was known for its butter production during the game.

Groningen:

Reshaped Groningen so that Utrecht players can reclaim the territory without ahistorically bordering the North Sea.

Overijssel:

Retraced the borders to give Oldenzaal (Twente) its historic borders. Also splitting Kampen from Zwolle makes sense as Kampen was a very important harbour at the start of the game (the Rotterdam of the middle ages).

Gelderland:

Shrunk the western border of Bredevoort (previous Doetinchem) to give more area Nijmegen and exchanged land between Bredevoort and Zutphen, creating similar sizes. Divided Nijmegen in half and renamed the western part Tiel. Tiel could produce wheat.

Utrecht:

Added the province Amersfoort.

Brabant:

Redrew the borders to more accurately match the borders of the old Duchy of Brabant, mainly the subdivisions of the 's-Hertogenbosch quarter. Reduced the reach of Holland into Brabant. Split off Tilburg from 's-Hertogenbosch and Breda, a very important centre for Dutch wool and split off Bergen op Zoom from Breda, which should probably produce salt. Adding these two provinces would equalize the amount of provinces Brabant has with neighbouring Flanders.

South Holland:

Redrew the borders to put Dordrecht back in its borders and create more historical and better looking borders.

North Holland:

Split the province of Haarlem out of Amsterdam. It could produce sturdy grains to reference its beer production.

To be honest, I'm really happy with how the map turned out, but with these changes it would be even better imo!

 

[Draky]

What's the justification for having Dutch and Flemish cultures be separate in 1337? Obviously there's different dialects here and there but they are more related to one another than to for instance Low German, and I'm not sure there would have been a sharp distinction between a northern "Dutch" and a southern "Flemish" before modernity. Full disclaimer it's not like I'm an expert in the area, just wanted to ask.

Shouldn't Overjissel be Low German culture as well, given that that's the main language there?

A Picard culture is exciting though.

My bet is nationalism, not wanting to open a political can of worms, and the absence of an in-game mechanic to separate/merge cultures
Eastern Europe is much worse in that regard. I mean ck2/3 had Bosnian culture in 867 (!!!!!!!), when in reality at that time ALL of Slavic cultures should have been one culture, or at the very least they shouldn't have been specified further than the south/west/east subgroups

 

[PrinceOfHomburg]

Hello, I created this account just so I could take part in the discussions around Project Caesar. I'm loving what you've been able to show so far, and hope it will continue. I have probably about 3000 hours in Paradox Games, mostly in Eu4 but also some CK2 and 3 and HOI4.

I wanted to share my feedback for the tiny part of the map that I'm familiar with, even though you already mentioned that the german parts are still works in progress.
The province name "Bliesgau" fits with the "Gau" naming scheme you have going on and is a historical term, but for a much smaller area (more location level). As much as I'd love to see the whole province named "Bliesgau", "Saargau", or another name referencing the river Saar, would probably be a more accurate name.

 

[Thorum]

Here you are:

View attachment 1130912

The population map hasn't really been discussed in detail (except for UI) , while I'd consider a few numbers proportionally really strange

For example, current Zeeland (locations Hulst and Middelburg) seem very high, while the important cities seem low (especially Brugge and Antwerpen, probably Brussel as well).

Valenciennes and Rijsel being in the top three most populous locations in the lowlands also doesn't seem right. In general, today's France seems to have a higher baseline than today's Benelux?

 

[Mef]

The population map hasn't really been discussed in detail (except for UI) , while I'd consider a few numbers proportionally really strange

Since they're presumably going to make a lot of changes to the map based on feedback, focusing on accurate population numbers right now would not be a good idea.
But yeah, these numbers will have to be adjusted for sure.

 

[Floris de wagt]

Before we move on to the Iberian peninsula tomorrow, I wanted to give a few extra suggestions to improve historicity and roleplay possibility.
Zooming in on the map, it becomes obvious a lot of the territory borders are traced on a municipality map of the Netherlands, which makes it easy to draw up the suggestions I have, and in turn make it easier for the map maker to implement them.

Firstly the mistakes (as pointed out by others).

• Arnhem is located inside the current Apeldoorn territory, renaming Apeldoorn to Arnhem would fix that. The original Arnhem should be renamed Wageningen.
• Coevorden is located inside the current Emmen territory, renaming Emmen to Coevorden would fix that. The original Coevorden should be renamed to Meppel.
• Roermond is located inside the current Weert territory, renaming Weert to Roermond would fix that. The original Roermond should be renamed Heinsberg.
• The border between South Holland and Brabant is based on the greatest size of Holland but seems to overshoot a little bit. I would reduce the chunk out of Brabant bij half and give that area to Dordrecht instead of Rotterdam (which it had closer ties with).

Secondly renames (When a city was more influential during the time period than the original one):

• Rename ‘s-Gravenhage to Delft.
• Rename Doetinchem to Bredevoort.
• Rename Enschede to Oldenzaal.
• Rename Wedde to Winschoten.
• Rename Makkum to Stavoren.

Thirdly border changes and additions (picture comparing current state to proposed state):
Friesland: View attachment 1133877
These changes are mostly based on Pbhuh and other's posts on the province.

Groningen:
View attachment 1133878
Reshaped Groningen so that Utrecht players can reclaim the territory without ahistorically bordering the North Sea.

Overijssel:
View attachment 1133879Retraced the borders to give Oldenzaal (Twente) its historic borders. Also splitting Kampen from Zwolle makes sense as Kampen was a very important harbour at the start of the game (the Rotterdam of the middle ages).

Gelderland:
View attachment 1133880
Shrunk the western border of Bredevoort (previous Doetinchem) to give more area Nijmegen and exchanged land between Bredevoort and Zutphen, creating similar sizes. Divided Nijmegen in half and renamed the western part Tiel. Tiel could produce wheat.

Utrecht:
View attachment 1133888Added the province Amersfoort.

Brabant:
View attachment 1133882Redrew the borders to more accurately match the borders of the old Duchy of Brabant, mainly the subdivisions of the 's-Hertogenbosch quarter. Reduced the reach of Holland into Brabant. Split off Tilburg from 's-Hertogenbosch and Breda, a very important centre for Dutch wool and split off Bergen op Zoom from Breda, which should probably produce salt. Adding these two provinces would equalize the amount of provinces Brabant has with neighbouring Flanders.

South Holland:
View attachment 1133890
Redrew the borders to put Dordrecht back in its borders and create more historical and better looking borders.

North Holland:
View attachment 1133885Split the province of Haarlem out of Amsterdam. It could produce sturdy grains to reference its beer production.

To be honest, I'm really happy with how the map turned out, but with these changes it would be even better imo!

Very nice feedback, the only thing I disagree with is changing Den Haag to delft as Den Haag was both the capital of the duchy of Holland and the de facto capital of the Dutch republic.

 

[Konscienþ]

i was wondering will there be any unique flavor to friesland/frisia/frisian freedom? friesland is probably one of the more interestnig countries imo.

 

[Justjacky]

What's the justification for having Dutch and Flemish cultures be separate in 1337? Obviously there's different dialects here and there but they are more related to one another than to for instance Low German, and I'm not sure there would have been a sharp distinction between a northern "Dutch" and a southern "Flemish" before modernity. Full disclaimer it's not like I'm an expert in the area, just wanted to ask.

Shouldn't Overjissel be Low German culture as well, given that that's the main language there?

A Picard culture is exciting though

calling Low Saxon Low German is the type of superficial culture display we unfortunately see a lot in paradox games. The cut off point between them being more or less the modern border only tops the matter in ridiculousness.

Rename Dutch to Low Franconian, Low German (if it's even called that) to Low Saxon and make Guelders and Oberyssel Saxon, Groningen and surroundings should be mixed Frisian Saxon by this point. Also merge Flemish into Low Franconian.

 

[Diffa015]

I dont know if this is already been said, but I like to share some of my knowlegde. Parts of the information I have is only in dutch for the links...

Since the start is way earlier in the game, the localization names for Den Haag and Rotterdam are not fair. They were not the biggest cities in the region, Den Haag wasn't even a city at all at this time. In the city museums of both Den Haag and Rotterdam it will state (in dutch) that in both regions there was another greater power. In the Den Haag localization Delft was actually the bigger city, which was even the seat of rule in the 80 year war, and had one of 6 head quarters of the VOC , which made the city part of nowadays Rotterdam "Delfshaven" (1389) which means "harbor of Delft". It was only after the 2nd siege and the fall of Antwerp that Delft lost parts of it's power. Since they didnt take in as many (jewish and rich) refugies from Antwerp trying to seek safe harbor in the free part of the lowlands.

For the localization of Rotterdam I would change it to Dordrecht. In the 1300's Dordrecht was the place where trade happened along the Rhine, and Rotterdam was nothing more than just a fishing village.

Hopefully this is enough informatie for localization renames? Or maybe even extra localizations, as these cities play huge parts in the dutch history. I got links if need be.