EU4 - Development Diary - 2nd of April 2019

[tman144]

Maybe instead of having them all be unaaproachable at 90/85% influence for decades after your standard 3 clicks at the start of the game, have influence instead be a shared amongst all estates out of 100, instead of the meter it is now. This would make it much more dynamic and present than the leader/monarch point banks they are today, and make estates as to be sided with over the other estates, making them much more alive and realistic.

I like this shared slider idea. To expand, perhaps the ability to get monarch points from an estate should only be available if it is over a certain threshold, like 50-60%. Then the game would be trying to juggle the different estates to try to alternate who can give you more mana. Also DEFINITELY SHOULD HAVE A NOTIFICATION WHEN MONARCH POINTS ARE AVAILABLE!

You could also make it so that influence is mainly controlled by event choices instead of simply how much land they own, but the more land an estate owns, the more likely an event will fire related to that estate. For example, having a COT province owned by the burghers could fire an event where an abnormally wealthy merchant appears, and you could 1)ally him, raising burgher influence while lowering the other two and granting a bonus to trade power. 2)tax him, lowering burgher influence while raising the other two and giving you cash. 3)bring him to court, which gives you an advisor but doesn't change influence.

 

[HannibalCannae]

Personally, I would like to see a way in the macro builder to assign provinces up to a certain percentage r certain loyalty easier rather than clicking around your country to assign every individual province. Maybe finding a way in the algorithm to assign the best provinces to each estate. For example, giving livestock or yarn to the Nobility.

 

[Sledjer]

I think estates shouldn't simply represent various parties you need to keep happy and can get benefits from either. After all, a significant political issue in this time period was the (intentional) erosion of estate power by monarchs, and was arguably what led to the age of absolutism. I think that estates should come with serious influence, at least in the start of the game, and how one interacts with them should influence how the country plays as the game goes on.

 

[magriboy0750]

I think estates shouldn't simply represent various parties you need to keep happy and can get benefits from either. After all, a significant political issue in this time period was the (intentional) erosion of estate power by monarchs, and was arguably what led to the age of absolutism. I think that estates should come with serious influence, at least in the start of the game, and how one interacts with them should influence how the country plays as the game goes on.

Can't agree more,the lack of internal politic is one of the big defaults of EU4.And i think what you suggest is very good to solve this issue.

 

[Ilightmaster]

I think the stuterring that annoys me the most, is the late game one. Can you explain why if a lot of tricky calculation is due to the number of tags when we reach late game the slower the game becomes. I mean i think there is probably too much of path-findings when your country is huge. Is there improvements to remove islands from pathfinding calculation unless someone wakes them up (by landing troops).

 

[Bearjuden]

I think the stuterring that annoys me the most, is the late game one. Can you explain why if a lot of tricky calculation is due to the number of tags when we reach late game the slower the game becomes. I mean i think there is probably too much of path-findings when your country is huge. Is there improvements to remove islands from pathfinding calculation unless someone wakes them up (by landing troops).

Iirc it's trade that slows things down late game, not units. Early game has fewer nodes that are effectively active and everyone is doing less things with those nodes. As more merchants, light ships, and colonies enter the fray, it compounds on itself.

 

[Mineiro]

When the Estates were added, I loved at first sight. I don't know other strategy game that remind us about domestic power actors. Generally speaking, in strategy games the player incorporates a true leviatan god king who controls everything and everyone without any internal opposition, just outside enemies. So, if you want to develop the Estates system, and this can be done and would be very nice, I suggest to rethink about this question: what are the Estates? Well, they are the intermediates.
In a poor developed burocratic structure of early modern States, even in absolutist monarchies, the King needed intermediates to control large territories (wich justifies the minimum 25% autonomy in Estates provinces, but could be more). In this case, distance from the capital should be a important factor, as the central goverment would need a loyal intermediate actor to keep remote land in control (if not loyal - revolt). Parallel to this, states numbers could be reduced and should only be created in adjacency to another state (with the capital beeing the center of all - also preventing state creation with only player judgment), while all the territories would be controled then by the intermediates (as an example, in 1444 France, there would be no need to recreate french vassals, as only Ile de France and little neighbouring provinces would be in states, the rest territories controlled by estates). With the growth in adm technology, states would substitute territories (representing the expansion of central governement authority) at a cost of local rebellions. However, in real history, only after french revolution the intermediates were revoked and direct government estabelished, so even under states, Estates would continue to exist, but at smaller autonomy, at last until the revolution.
Anyway, for the game developers, I recomend the reading of Charles Tilly's book "Coercion, Capital, and European States, AD 990-1992"

 

[Jaqb09]

I have single player experience, mostly in EUIV and lots of my thoughts have already been expressed here. That being said:

1. Faction and Estates. I see estates as a major part of internal power struggle so why not merge this two system and rework them as one? Get rid of province assigning and have neat single window to interact with. Also as was mentioned before the influence should sum up to 100% divided between estates/factions/parliament and court.

2. Lot of mechanics that are now not connected with each other could be incorporated here. Province authonomy, Army professionalism, Trade power, Rebels, Ruler religion and of course above all Absolutism. Examples:
a) Army professionalism. The higher you get, the less you have to rely on the Nobelman support.
Picture here PLC (rely on the nobles to the very end of existence) vs. Prussia (small country that slowly build big professinal army) vs. Ottomans (start with high proffessional army which through various events change to faction - Janissaries, and Ottomans loose all they army proffesionalism)
b) Ruler with different-than-state religion or advisors with different religion in the court. Clergy start demanding change and start spawning peasant rebels if they have not been appeased.
c) More trade power country have the more Burgers are influencial.

3. Absolutism. Also in my opinion it should be sum of different factors not a number one get in the middle of the game. In fact it should be possible to obtain from the beginnig of the EUIV timeline. But absolutism should comes with a price. Now it is always "the more the better". Maybe it be better when you need to balance things? For example you have less demanding Burgers but also you have less trade power in the nodes or humble nobles but lower force limit/manpower because your army professionalism is hovering around 0.

4. Agenda/Missions. Pick that idea, ally this country, build here churches, marry this man etc. If not I will spawn rebels, cut your income/manpower, even ask the foreign power to aid me. As in Danzing event for PLC.

5. AI. And this is in my opinion most important and also most challenging one. Allowing other countries meddling into your internal affairs and vice versa. What is fun? War is fun! Why? Because you have to adjust and react to the situation on the board. Watch the diplomatic situation and strike when time is right, then you need to wisly pick up fights. Sometimes you will be caught with your pants down and need to cerfully defend yourself. This all is not because you move armies on the map (it is also part of it) but because AI/other players put dynamic in to system that which would otherwise be just "moving the sliders".
This is tough I know, but picture situation when the AI or the Player are able to recreate Moldavian event - Roman's Invasion on other country.
Other ideas:
a) Support other country Nobles to revolt and put your relative on the throne.
b) Influence other country Clergy and the target country get additional penalty when it attack you
c) Bribe the Burgers and get sige bonus
d) Simillar to the Support Independence mechanics when you incite disloyal estates

6. More important role of estate/faction than simply i.e. +10/-10 mapower recovery speed. If you/we want Players to interact with them during the whole game not only the beginning.

P.S.
It all should lead to more realistic end-game when the players are preocupied managing their empires instead fighting game mechanics that limits their endless conquests. And to more realistic situation when big but not balanced/united countries are easy to breake. Cultures should play here also major role but this is a different topic I think.

 

[grommile]

5. AI. And this is in my opinion most important and also most challenging one. Allowing other countries meddling into your internal affairs and vice versa. What is fun? War is fun! Why?

Because it involves directly engaging with the actions of other players (whether meatbag or computer), and provides a high time density of potentially meaningful decisions even at speed 2-3.

The espionage system - which is what you're proposing to expand - doesn't. It largely involves engaging with zombies summoned rebels incited by other gameplay agents, or pushing buttons and waiting.

 

[Jaqb09]

The espionage system - which is what you're proposing to expand - doesn't. It largely involves engaging with zombies summoned rebels incited by other gameplay agents, or pushing buttons and waiting.

Yes and no.

No - because in my mind it was rather a new way to provoke a war on your terms. Like Danzig event mentioned. Maybe it should also include the way to prevent this by introducting a new means to deal with foreign diplomats. Which could be a CB for other country and potentially leads to another war etc.
Also it could be use as a way of putting pressure on target country to change their diplomatic status, change alliances or rivals.

Yes - this is also a expand of espionage system, and new way to provoke zombie-rebels in other countries. Now it's very dull and honestly I taking espionage idea or provoke a rebels in other countries as a funny stuff not a real tool to achieve something. There is a lot of different events that spawn rebels like a traitorous son for Ottomans or great general that start rebellion for Vijayanagar and this all keep player engaged in internal affairs.

 

[DamonIsa]

I'm not necessarily feeling it myself. The interesting (at least to me) premise behind Estates is that it is something that ultimately is entirely internal to your own nation. That theoretically during a calm time where you might not be involved in Wars, diplomacy, or something there is still potentially something to interact with. For example my Norway run where due to a balance of treaties I had no worries from the only powers near enough to really declare war on me (England and Danmark), so I was just busy colonizing Canada and America. Outside of that and some bids to get my supporters on the Polish Crown, just not much to do for Norway.

Which is a point where the Estates system might be most interesting to me and give an aspect that is otherwise fairly light on right now. If you're in a static situation usually nothing to do but jack up the timer and wait for something (usually bad) to happen. And it'd be kind of interesting if during those times of peace and quiet estates were more active and played a bigger role in what was going on in the game. And not just in a "Do you favor Nobles or Merchants?" kind of fashion.

Rather than Estates being a factor for someone exterior to mess with and add more complications to an already busy time in the game (War and Rebellions/Disasters). While nothing wrong with pressure, right now there's typically the odd tempo of either the game is on Lots to Do or Nothing to Do.

 

[Trenzun]

I never find a need to interact with my estates since I no longer have to give provinces to them. There should be a mechanic that requires us to deal with them a bit more and not forget that they exist.

 

[Jaqb09]

The interesting (at least to me) premise behind Estates is that it is something that ultimately is entirely internal to your own nation.

I couldn't agree more. Main reason for me to use estates is to represent shift from (pre)feudal country to modern one.
My thoughts was this: to avoid plain and predictable clicking or simply RNG on other hand let's put there some AI here. And being able influence in peace time other coutries sound like good idea.
But maybe it's too much complicated. Maybe just nice ecosystem of different powers within your country will do the job. You need to do so, some sort of basic AI for every estate with points of interacting with each other.

But I will strongly insist to allow other countries to interfere into your interanal affairs, but maybe limit it just for Espionage Ideas.

While nothing wrong with pressure, right now there's typically the odd tempo of either the game is on Lots to Do or Nothing to Do.

Yeah, it's always lot of waiting when you play some small nation that was not a meant to play.

 

[Titanius Puffin]

Since this post has become a magnet for Estate suggestions..... I think estates should become a bit more tricky to interact with. Estates represent powerful social/political factions in a realm. Right now I don't the game does a good job modelling them.

One area where these groups should make themselves felt should be war

Could a player promise provinces to his estates when he/she declares war? Promising them provinces could give you help in prosecuting wars. Maybe Clergy could reduce coring costs and counter war exhaustion, Aristocracy could help with morale, and merchants could help with financing - maybe reduce war taxes military points cost?
Failing to reward estates adequately after a war could result in serious disloyalty. Maybe failing to promise provinces could result in uncooperative estates, as they see the ruler as taking their money/sailors/manpower, and ignoring them.

Also I think estates should get upset if things go wrong in defensive wars too. Maybe if the estate wasn't that very loyal in the first place they can become uncooperative if a lot of territory is occupied/looted?

Estate unhappiness could/should do some of the work that war exhaustion does now since estates represent powerful special interests will may feel aggrieved if a ruler is seen as failing in their defensive duties.

A really disloyal estate could/should negatively affect the stability of your realm. A civil war perhaps?

Anyway that's my two cents. There are some pretty good suggestions from other people too. I particularly like his one:

I don't think that POPs would work for most things in EU4. But I do think that a simified POP system could be brilliant for estates. A Catholic French noble should want different things than an Islamic Turkic noble. If they controlled by the same country they probably would find it difficult to work together,....

 

[Strompeta]

I never liked Estates mechanic as its intended, I think it increases micro so much and dont like it (and dont like autonomy in my best provinces in the early game).
I have about 1500hours, and stopped playing with Dharma, now I discovered "No estates mod" and Im playing again
I think it will be better if managed as religious sliders, 0% gives you some bonuses, or disaster countdown, and 100% other bonuses, maybe level thresholds 0-15,15-30,30-70.70-85,85.100, but without lands, only from events and decisions, it would be nice if you have some advantages (+5% manpower recover speed at high nobility or bushi, +5% tax income, +5% trade power etc)