Time again for my monthly (well, roughly) pastime of developer diary writing! Last month, I might have mentioned plots and intrigue, but I think I'll hold off on that a bit more... Instead, let's talk about units and the combat system.

Like in the first Crusader Kings, military units are of variable size and composition. Each can contain any number of each of the seven troop types (light and heavy infantry, pike men, light cavalry, knights, archers and horse archers.) Most units are raised from a corresponding settlement (castle, church or city), their size and composition dependent on the improvements constructed there. Others belong to a mercenary group or holy order, etc. Units are discrete and cannot be merged or split into smaller parts, though of course they can be grouped together in armies. The basic system should be familiar to anyone who has played the original Crusader Kings.



Combat, however, is different from our other games. As soon as they are grouped together in a larger army, units are are assigned to one of three positions; left flank, center, or right flank. This is done automatically, but can be altered manually by players so inclined. On the battlefield, each position fights separately - normally against the corresponding part of the enemy army. Combat between positions is divided into three phases; skirmish, melee and pursue/flee. My left flank can be skirmishing against the enemy's right flank while my center is locked in melee, etc. The seven unit types have different strengths and weaknesses, so that for example archers excel at skirmish and knights at melee. The leader of each flank (a character), will pick combat tactics, which determines if his position should strive to close for melee, or avoid melee, etc. When an enemy position breaks, it will flee, and the pursue phase ensues. The longer the phase lasts, the more losses that contingent will sustain, but on the other hand, the pursuing force will not be assisting against the remaining enemy positions - also a tactical decision by the flank commander. Combat tactics are similar to the combat events of Rome, but more developed. (Btw, combat tactics are fully moddable.)



Apart from combat tactics, there are also more traditional combat events, for example when commanders get wounded, killed or imprisoned, or when they improve on their martial skills. Sieges work in a similar fashion, but emphasizing morale loss, and with a different set of combat tactics. A commander with a high Intrigue skill might even manage to bribe some defenders into opening the gates. What about fleets? Unlike CK, ships do exist in Crusader Kings II, similar to the galleys in Rome. They are raised like normal troop levies in coastal provinces, but can only be used to transport troops - not to fight or block straits (large scale naval battles in the period were rare to say the least.)



Oh, I almost forgot to mention that if an army is victorious, all commanders will bask in the glory and gain prestige. Conversely, the shame of defeat results in prestige loss. So, choosing to lead the army yourself can be profitable in terms of prestige, but of course, war is a dangerous business...

Enjoy the screenies and stay tuned for the next dev diary - sometime in August.



Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[unmerged(211379)]

I just love the fact that many of the ideas presented here on the forums have actually ended up into CK2 - naval warfare, intrigue having effect in a siege, battle results having impact on prestige etc. =) I really, really love all the improvements - this is going to be a fantastic game.

 

[Zakuno2]

It's looking good. I can't wait for this game.

 

[RedRooster81]

Warning: the following is a bit way out there. Read at your own risk.

I would say that military reforms should be possible. The system of altering the internal politics of your provinces to alter the composition of your levies is out, but there should be other, new ways to determine how your vassals equip their men, at least the barons in your counties. Someone said that French lords should not be fielding mounted archers, but is that a hard rule? Could not a Gascon count, who has experience in the Holy Land, train his light cavalry to fire bows or his archers to fight on horseback, after the fashion of the Turkish and Mongol horse archers that he fought against or hired as mercenaries while on crusade? So much more so if your neighbors are Mongols and you need to adapt to new challenges.

Such adaptations should not come without some adjustments, of course. You cannot skirmish from horseback properly with destriers, for example, and there should be a lag time for your men to adjust properly. Maintaining large cavalries required adequate grazing land, proper breeding, and other resources. In general, you should be able to adapt to the terrain and to what your neighbors are doing. Not that neighbors' tactics and kinds of troops should be identical, but that there should be some kind of relationship. Finally, the politics of your realm should figure in. If you favor the commoners or the clergy or the nobility, you should get different kinds of troops, that should cross-reference with culture and region. In some historical kingdoms, the troops to be supplied were included in town charters for example. Northern Italian cities favored heavy infantry, while Castilian towns were expected to provide light cavalrymen (jinetes). So any ideas or insights? I think that it would be a nice thing to have included, although it might not be workable in practice.

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

Too much of that involves changing the whole culture and things. For one, to have horse archers, you have to TRAIN them. Generally, to be any decent, from BIRTH, or a very young age. The parts of Europe where the best archers come from are all parts that lived by the bow, and it was a distinct part of their culture. Same with equipping heavy infantry any differently. The light levy troops, maybe a little more leeway, in the proportions of light inf to light cav, but heavy cav was practically solely the domain of the Knight, and heavy inf and pikemen both required the correct culture of those existing, generally in free-spirited crossroads, with tough terrain: ie the Low Countries, Switzerland.

 

[besaccia]

What about techs?????? I want a tech dd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RedRooster81]

Too much of that involves changing the whole culture and things. For one, to have horse archers, you have to TRAIN them. Generally, to be any decent, from BIRTH, or a very young age. The parts of Europe where the best archers come from are all parts that lived by the bow, and it was a distinct part of their culture. Same with equipping heavy infantry any differently. The light levy troops, maybe a little more leeway, in the proportions of light inf to light cav, but heavy cav was practically solely the domain of the Knight, and heavy inf and pikemen both required the correct culture of those existing, generally in free-spirited crossroads, with tough terrain: ie the Low Countries, Switzerland.

Thanks for your insights. I hope that terrain does play a (big) part in determining army composition, combined with the types of settlements present, to a greater degree than culture per se. Technology should play a role in this, too, and I would still like to see the ability to emulate your neighbors in terms of the types of troops that you can field. If your culture is defined as heavily dependent on light melee troops and you're stuck between an empire that favors horse archers and another that is built on heavy infantry, God save you. How else can we see the crossover in England for example between Anglo-Saxon heavy infantry merged into a shield wall and the Norman cavalry that came to predominate in the XI and XII century? Chivalry, in terms of horsemanship, spread like any idea or technology over time and across space, displacing infantry. Of course, maybe the devs chose to keep this sort of thing stationary, from 1066 to 1453, but I am hoping for a more dynamic system.

 

[Dragoneer]

This DD sold it for me, the combat system looks like a dream! Well done

 

[Kaleidoscope]

What happens if a player character is made a flank commander in his liege's army? Will we take control of the army, or watch as the AI moves it around?

 

[Grubnessul]

Too much of that involves changing the whole culture and things. For one, to have horse archers, you have to TRAIN them. Generally, to be any decent, from BIRTH, or a very young age. The parts of Europe where the best archers come from are all parts that lived by the bow, and it was a distinct part of their culture. Same with equipping heavy infantry any differently. The light levy troops, maybe a little more leeway, in the proportions of light inf to light cav, but heavy cav was practically solely the domain of the Knight, and heavy inf and pikemen both required the correct culture of those existing, generally in free-spirited crossroads, with tough terrain: ie the Low Countries, Switzerland.

It should not be too much culture dependent though. After their encounters with Attila, the Byzantines created a force of cavalry archers that was pretty much on par with the Mongolians.

 

[Forris]

Will experience and/or discipline be present?

And if that's the case, how will it be applied in combat?

 

[RedRooster81]

What happens if a player character is made a flank commander in his liege's army? Will we take control of the army, or watch as the AI moves it around?

I sure hope so. Since combat is supposed to center on character decisions.

@Grubnessel: I hope so, I hope so. But the system may not be that flexible. If nothing else, you should be able to hire mercenary mounted archer companies.

 

[olvirki]

You (paradox)mentioned that I am able to choose which units will be in the left, middle and right flank, does that mean one can have another Cannae ? That is, intentionally make your middle flank weak but your side flanks strong, drive off/kill the enemies side flanks and then surround your enemy ? Btw, Hannibal was a genius and is apparently the only one that has managed a "Cannea".

And also, I suspect that viking mods will come a some point, will modders be able to mod the ships into warships such as longships (naval battles were a lot more common in that era, right ?).

 

[unmerged(193360)]

I doubt it will be possible to mod in proper naval combat, that needs to be done in the engine itself.
However, naval combat in the Viking age was not really between ships, but between the armies embarked on them. It might be that some clever modder wil figure out a way to let the armies sailing on opposing fleets in the same region have a battle, with appropriate modifiers related to fleet size and composition.

 

[RhoDaZZ]

You (paradox)mentioned that I am able to choose which units will be in the left, middle and right flank, does that mean one can have another Cannae ? That is, intentionally make your middle flank weak but your side flanks strong, drive off/kill the enemies side flanks and then surround your enemy ? Btw, Hannibal was a genius and is apparently the only one that has managed a "Cannea".

And also, I suspect that viking mods will come a some point, will modders be able to mod the ships into warships such as longships (naval battles were a lot more common in that era, right ?).

1) Hopefully the system is close to being that dynamic with the flanks, but it looks mostly as there being an indicator of how aggressive, defensive or in-between the commander is. At least we don't know if one flank can be targeted by a certain type of commander with all of his own flanks or similar, but it looks to be rare if not non-existent:

On the battlefield, each position fights separately - normally against the corresponding part of the enemy army

2) Not really, from what we know so far only small naval skirmishes where the opposing side usually won were actually encountered. The viking ship's true force was its amphibious landing capabilities that enabled raid parties to loot with hit and run tactics (later on with established "colonisation" of parts of Scotland and the Danelaw the significance of the ship naturally declined in military use).

 

[RedRooster81]

I doubt it will be possible to mod in proper naval combat, that needs to be done in the engine itself.
However, naval combat in the Viking age was not really between ships, but between the armies embarked on them. It might be that some clever modder wil figure out a way to let the armies sailing on opposing fleets in the same region have a battle, with appropriate modifiers related to fleet size and composition.

Combat would be not that different from on land. The ships were really platforms for combat, with the added danger of drowning. If two opposing armies are on ships in the same sea zone, I think that some combat should be part of it, or at least a chance of combat.

@RhoDaZZ: mobility was indeed the key to Viking raiding, with the ability to go upriver at will. It is said that the Franks started building bridges across the Seine in the VIII and IX centuries to keep out the Vikings. Maybe you can recruit your ship levies into a sort of coast guard if raiders or invaders come like you can with your land forces to defend during sieges? What I mean is that if the English are invading Poitou by sea with 10 ships, can you raise the twelve ships in the County of Poitou to prevent them from landing?

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Is there any kind of penalty for having too much cavalry and not enough infantry like the combined arms bonus in EU3? Or can you just have big stacks that are mostly heavy cavalry and terrorize the enemy without consequence?

This is the middle ages, so I don't think there should be a penalty for all-cavalry armies. Since you do not have direct control over what forces a province musters, you cannot "create" all-cavalry armies unless you own provinces that field exclusively horse units. (Steppe provinces?)

It would be fun if there was an element of "asymetric" warfare: For example if you play the Magyars or Petchenegs, you could have all-horse armies, which would move faster than the feudal armies of Europe and have certain tactical advantages (or disadvantages). On the other hand, if you play the Rus and you have the usual feudal army, you'd sweat a lot when you see an all-horse Mongol army arrive in your land...

 

[Wilsonrtf]

I doubt it will be possible to mod in proper naval combat, that needs to be done in the engine itself.
However, naval combat in the Viking age was not really between ships, but between the armies embarked on them. It might be that some clever modder wil figure out a way to let the armies sailing on opposing fleets in the same region have a battle, with appropriate modifiers related to fleet size and composition.

Maybe it will be possible to trigger naval battles by event, such that there is a chance for battle whenever enemy ships are crossing thru the same sea zone.

The battle calculation part, however, seems like something difficult to implement. It would be very nice if a modder managed that successfully.

 

[RedRooster81]

Maybe it will be possible to trigger naval battles by event, such that there is a chance for battle whenever enemy ships are crossing thru the same sea zone.

The battle calculation part, however, seems like something difficult to implement. It would be very nice if a modder managed that successfully.

It might be possible, but it depends on each ship's carrying capacity, and the size of the armies in general. We should be talking of levies in the hundreds, not the thousands IMHO, per province. EU3 allowed a thousand men (one regiment) per transport as did EU Rome, but if we are assuming mostly galleys (I don't know if we are), then you could create a formula for figuring out how many of your men being transported could reasonably defend the ship that they are on and how many could be used to board the enemy's. Don't know how it would work but sounds exciting nonetheless.

 

[Kaleidoscope]

Enjoy the screenies and stay tuned for the next dev diary - sometime in August.

Ahem.

Allow me to suggest some dev diary topics:
Crusade Mechanics
Character traits
Plots

Don't fail me!

 

[Sam L]

There are only 6 days remaining in August.