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Riekopo

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Apr 24, 2013
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Why does the game have the entire Mongol empire under the control of the Yuan way before the Yuan dynasty was even established? The Yuan dynasty was formed around 1271 by Kublai Khan I think but the game has the Yuan around way before then. Maybe I'm wrong idk...

Also, in 1260 the game splits Mongolia off from the Yuan control. But I don't think that is historically correct. I really think Paradox needs to hire someone to maintain all their games' start dates better.
 
The direction that Paradox has taken (due to only having a single Emperor of China at the time) is to skip South Song.
This means that Song reign ends in 1127 when they're conquered by Jin (whom they actually survived) who are later conquered by the Mongols 1234.
As both Song and Jin are "gone" by 1234 they install the Genghis Khans successor as Chinese Emperors instead:
  • Ogödäi Khan (1234-1241)
  • Güyük Khan (1241-1248)
  • Möngkä Khan (1248-1260)
  • Kublai Khan (1260-1294)
Meanwhile, they leave on map Mongolia in the hands of placeholder characters.

Their choice is understandable, but I disagree with it entirely. In my opinion, the line of Taizu should be added and South Song Emperors should be added to the history files. Whether Jin should be considered rulers of China after 1127 or if Song can continue to rule with a Jurchen invasion status between 1127 and 1211 (where it's replaced with a Mongol Invasion) matters little, although I suppose adding Jin feels a bit more varied. However, after the fall of Jin in 1234, South Song should be considered rulers of China until the rise of Kublai Khan. This means that Emperor Lizong rules from 1234 (or 1224 if Jin aren't included) until 1264 when Emperor Duzong takes over before being prematurely ousted by Kublai in 1271 (or could possibly be allowed to rule until 1274, and even toss in the last few emperors until 1279, letting Kublai establish the Yuan a few years late).

Also, in 1260 the game splits Mongolia off from the Yuan control. But I don't think that is historically correct.
When Möngkä Khan died in 1259, both Ariq Bögä and Kublai laid claim to the Mongol Empire. As the youngest brother, Ariq Bögä ruled the heartlands of Mongolia and summoned a Quriltai to get himself elected khan. But Kublai was away from court (campaigning against South Song) and kept avoiding Karakorum so as to not lend Ariq Bögä any legitimacy. Instead, Kublai gathered an army to oust Ariq Bögä and was proclaimed khan by his supporters (I'm not sure who they were exactly as most of the Mongol nobility supporter Ariq Bögä) in 1260. A war was fought between Ariq Bögä and Kublai called the Tolouid Civil War and lasted until 1264 when Kublai won.

In my opinion, the perfect mix of accuracy and gameplay consistency is to mark 1264 as the year of Kublai's ascension to the throne of China. This allows Kublai to be a landless pretender to the Mongol Empire while Ariq Bögä is in charge (meaning he can become an adventurer or have his claim pressed by Hulägu or whomever) and become Emperor after his younger brother is defeated. 1264 also coincides very well with the death of Duzong (only 2 months between the defeat of Ariq Bögä and Duzong's death) meaning a smooth transition in the history files. Also, by 1260 Kublai had already made Khanbaliq (Beijing) his capital and never moved back to Karakorum so being entirely off map is fitting.

After Ariq Bögä's defeat the Mongol Empire is disbanded (the suzerainty of the successor states is transferred to the Western Protectorate, i.e. Yuan Empire) but the region itself is controlled by Qaidu, Ogödäi's grandson and Kublai Khans later (and much more dangerous) contender for the following 30 years. Qaidu eventually become de facto ruler of the Chagatai ulus which is probably best represented as a tributary relationship. After Qaidu's death in 1301 his son Chäpär lacked the strength to keep up the struggle and accepted Yuan suzerainty, he was later defeated by his Chagataid appointee Duwa and was forced to relinquish all control over the Chagatai ulus. Later, after Duwa's death, he tried to reassert the Ogödäid ulus but was soundly defeated by Duwa's son Kebek and fled all the way to the Yuan court in China. Whether Mongolia should be a part of the Protector General's realm (as Tribal vassals) or part of the Chagatai ulus after Chäpär's defeat I'm not sure, but regardless it should stay that way until the end of the game.

I wrote about this about a year ago if you're interested. I no longer stand by all I've written there (and a lot of it is probably just a repetition of what's written above) but some of it might be relevant.
 
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Basically they've chosen to recognize whichever empire holds Northern China, meaning the Jin and Mongols rather than the Southern Song. Doing this necessitates setting up the Yuan ahistorically early (the other possibilities would be to either put Southern Song in the Emperor of China seat, or allow the empire to lapse between the conquest of Jin and the actual founding of the Yuan).
 
I really think Paradox needs to hire someone to maintain all their games' start dates better.
While I agree with this, it's mostly because I'd hope they'd hire me to do it.
I'm going through the history files myself for various reasons (it's an oddly nice way to unwind, actually) and have found their history files are rather inconsistent in quality, with a lot of people who aren't married to each other even though they both exist, multiple minor people merged into one person, duplicates of characters, etc. Some people have their specific deaths (i.e., not just actual date but death_reason = death_something), while others with the same kinds of deaths historically just dying on January 1 of that year of natural causes; plus a lot of people I think must be in there just so that dynasty has a member, etc.


However, I did find something interesting recently. If you go look up 487016 in the character files, you'll find a German character named Johann, whose dynasty is 'von Ulm'. I have no idea who this is supposed to be historically, and he lived exactly 50 years as most fictional characters seem to in the files; but in the game notes is the comment "#Johann von Hautkopft".
Johann von Hautkopft of Ulm. As in, perhaps, Johann Gambolputty von [crazy-long-name] von Hautkopft of Ulm? Has anyone pointed out this (potential) Monty Python reference before?