Everytime I play Hoi4 multiplayer, a cheater keeps coming in and shutting down the server. Are the developers planning a solution for this?
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Why is multiplayer mode unusable because of cheaters? Can't the developers make a useful anti-cheat? This makes no sense for multiplayer.
- Thread starter PlaginXHUN
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I don't play HoI anymore but are there really hackers in multiplayer? Who would have thought.
It's been discussed last year.
Arheo said explicitly he won't deal with this problem as it would require a complete redesign of multiplayer. The advice given was that you should play only with people you know, who won't cheat.
Multiplayer was designed with some flaws that were considered unimportant originally which allow the cheat engine to function. Fixing them would be costly.
Arheo said explicitly he won't deal with this problem as it would require a complete redesign of multiplayer. The advice given was that you should play only with people you know, who won't cheat.
Multiplayer was designed with some flaws that were considered unimportant originally which allow the cheat engine to function. Fixing them would be costly.
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No, not in the way you probably mean. The cost vastly outweighs the benefits.
And to be clear here, I'm talking about the cost and benefits to the players.
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I'm not sure I understand the question. I wasn't suggesting I'd sell it to you.
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Well Arheo, I know you're not obligated to share this stuff. And this isn't a hunt to put you on a stand or pressure you.
But you mentioned:
What costs to the players are you talking about here?
What are they, what's the sum, and how much would a player (or each player) need to pay to get this fixed?
Benefits I already know: being able to play the game without hacking being a threat, so that's less of a concern.
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Well, I suppose that's a bit like asking how many beans you can fit in a swimming pool. I know the answer is a hell of a lot, but working out the sum is challenging to say the least.
A lot of it is variable, and really comes down to the 'how'. Anti-cheat on a kernel level tends to be quite invasive, and entirely irrelevant to most players needs. Refactoring HoI to meet the standard required of a modern competitive multiplayer architecture would take months to years of significant effort. I do not think that cost is worth the impact it would have on the playerbase at large when the overwhelming majority of players show no interest in competitive or 'random' online multiplayer.
Even so, say someone rocks up to the studio with a large bag of cash and says 'here you go, I'll pay you to fix it', that's leaving everyone else in the dirt for a year while we do so: when I say 'cost', I don't mean money.
Edit: I should also point out that once you start fighting the practical war against hacking, you will never, ever stop. Someone will always be out there enjoying the challenge of waiting to crack the latest advances, and that becomes an arms race I simply have no interest in fighting. For games with competitive or online ecosystems, that's part of the cost of doing business, but we are not in that situation.
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Ok you got a fair point there. The arms race is a pretty good argument.
But why is there no reasonably viable way to host a game?
Ok, the multiplayer text lobby system is hackable, and it's too costly to fix, I get that. Why not create a central hub for people wanting to play on Discord?
That hasn't been hacked, and the job of doing anti-cheat verification would be manual.
Oh wait, someone from Paradox created an Official HOI4 discord which could have served as an alternative to the default Text-based online multiplayer lobby system.
I tried using the HOI4 Official Discord to start a game.
This is what I got (11/28/2022):
"You were warned in the Hearts of Iron Official Discord Discord server for the following reason:
[Rule 8 - Advertising] No self-promotion allowed, including server invite links, messages with the incentive to sell, buy, or trade products or services, links to auctions, affiliate/referral links. You may share individual artwork/videos etc.
[Rule 10 - Common Sense] Use common sense. Rules are enforced based on their spirit."
I asked: "Could you please elaborate on both? I linked the HOI4 latest dlc link from steam when advertising a multiplayer game. That not allowed?"
The response:
"Hello from the moderation team,
Multiplayer games posted within one of the MP chats have to hosted within one of the servers voice channels. Because of this and that you asked users to DM you to invite them to your server it is considered a breach of our advertising rule."
Those same rules are up still on that Official HOI4 server as of 04/27/24.
It's the same as banning all discord links from the built-in multiplayer text lobby for the exact same reason.
In order for me to vet people prior to playing with them (whether they are mature enough, whether they know which country they are playing and how to play HOI4) and to let them know of some basic rules (like don't declare war over Rhineland in 1936), I need to get them on my server, or any server that is tailored to the game being hosted. Not to mention that I need to verify which users are in the game to weed out the hackers.
I can't use the HOI4 Official server, as I can't even post basic rules (yes I hate house rules, but some are necessary) or separate people that are in the game from those who aren't in the game by roll-call (and banning whoever is not on a country).
I can't gather people to play on my server either, because the text multiplayer lobby is constantly hacked, and the HOI4 official server prohibits me from gathering people to my server.
Using the forum for MP: has too long of a reaction time. I've never played an MP game linked from a forum, and I bet 90% of those who played MP haven't either.
As a result we have a situation when:
A) The MP in-game lobby is unusable because of hacking (and is too costly to fix)
B) The HOI4 Official Discord is unusable because of its overly safe rules stance
C) The Forum MP system is simply something nobody ever used or will use, because it takes too long to find an opponent.
Every 3-6 months people ask whether PDX will do something about hacking, you respond it's too costly.
Maybe you could find a way of solving this problem without the cost implications? Like lifting some rules on the Official HOI4 discord and making it purely "MP Traffic controller"/Ebay of MP games? Or some other way that is actually easy to use for youngsters?
Like this is a rampant problem for 4 years now, and it's become a plague-size problem. Its solution may not necessarily be in the realm of programming an anti-cheat system, it could be something else.
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But how much would the anti cheat engine engine be if one were to be made theoretically?
The thing is PDX message is exactly there's no plague. Like I may want a top Tesla in sky-blue-pink, having flame-throwers and all of that coming in a factory standard trim. I personally may DO feel there's a plague since I DO want sky-blue-pink yet may be I'm next to the only one and on top of that installing flamethrowers will make road-legal Tesla certification cost-prohibitive?
That bring me to a old idea. How much must i pay that you fix a 5 year old bug? It's a crate of "good" beer enough or will you see money? I understand that you will pay for your work. But i will a product that work to 100% for my money too.
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Having a working multiplayer to play with strangers is not something that can be considered a "non-standard factory trim".
It's more like "Due to the increased rate of traffic accidents on high-speed roads with strangers, we advise all Tesla owners to avoid driving on highways and to only drive on familiar roads with local neighborhood drivers you personally know, as we cannot assure how our vehicles will behave at high-speeds and racecar performance is not a major selling point."
Everything that is said is absolutely true: Tesla is not advertised as a sports car. But at the same time, advising not to drive on highways kills the point of the having a Tesla. You don't buy a Tesla to drive it like it's a 4-wheel golf cart.
I'm not the only one hit by a multiplayer that doesn't work, you see 1 thread like this every few months on these forums.
Not only that, AI is also not performing at a reasonable level, so you have a situation when both AI is incompetent and multiplayer is unusable (with one exception which is if you manage to find familiar people that also play this game).
That said: based on steam charts, the number of players only keeps growing. I don't understand why, but that's how it is. On the other end, replicating HOI4's winning recipe of "rapid map painting in singleplayer as a selling point" has been a failure in other games Paradox released (Imperator: Rome, I am looking at you).
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If they're advertising "sky-blue-pink flamethrower-equipped Teslas" and, on paying, purchasers receive a green Tesla and a box of matches, people are going to be annoyed. Similarly, if multiplayer is advertised as a feature of a game, but the multiplayer in the game is basically unusable, people are going to be annoyed. I personally have no desire to play multiplayer in any Paradox game, but I can understand where complaints are coming from.
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So if I understand it correctly, this is simply a too difficult issue to ever be solved realisticly within HOI4. If it is correct that public multiplayer is all but unplayable due to hackers, shouldnt the game at least come with some kind of caveat?
edit. corrected HOI5 to 4.
edit. corrected HOI5 to 4.
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Was the HoI franchise designed as a Multiplayer game from the start?
Was any of the HoI versions designed as multiplayer from their inception?
From my experience any computer game that was not designed from the start as a PvP game, always had significant problems.
Even games that were designs with PvP from the start were niche.
Should PDX spend significant resources on something that would not bring a positive ROI? IMO, no.
I admit that I do not like to play PvP games, so my opinions are biassed.
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Which is why I argue that if they do not intend to fix the issue, it might be appropriate to have this stated "on the tin".
Im not too interested in public MP myself and am not bothered by this, but if I was and picked up this game to play public multiplayer but found it as troublesome as people on here claim it is, I would probably be quite unhappy.
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