Why can't I take Genoa from my Italian king vassal

[AngelRay]

Hi,

The king of Italy is my vassal.
He is lord of the genoan Doge which I would like to take as direct vassal since my colleague at work said to me it brings good money to have Genoa/Venice as direct vassal.

See printscreen:


But when I want to take his vassal of Genoa, this one doesn't appear in the list from which I have to choose.

Why?

 

[jwalche]

There is a special rule or setting or whatever with merchant republics. Especially king tier republics. That disable you from revoking titles ore retracting vassals (even not de jure vassals!!!!)

So beware of that and don't ever make a king tier MR. There is no point doing that ever.

For this time, if there is no other way and you have to get it done, grant independence and conquer it back. Use a holy war and wipe it off clean.

Or try console if not ironman.

 

[Metanetwork]

Your vassal king is feudal and his vassal is a merchant republic. The merchant republic is not king tier. If you plan to get Genoa as a direct vassal to get lots of money, don't use holy war since this will destroy the merchant republic.

Cut the middle man and arrange to inherit Italy/get the king of Italy to inherit your empire (I can tell he is a close relative), then keep the kingdom of Italy for yourself (the penalty for holding multiple kingdoms as an emperor is less severe than the penalty for holding multiple duchies as a king; moving your capital to Italy offsets the penalty toward de jure vassals of Italy). Or don't cut the middle man and arrange that the king of Italy is always your heir (by granting the title to your son, every generation). The direct monthly income will be low, but your heir will always be rich.

 

[mrinku]

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Title_revocation#Vassal_retraction

Vassal retraction
In order to retract vassals, the ruler must be able to revoke titles.

You may demand that your direct vassal allow one of their vassals to serve you directly, with the following exceptions:

• Cannot retract vassals who are at war
• Cannot retract baron-tier vassals from their de jure count
• Cannot retract patricians (oddly, this means you can't retract merchant republics from vassal kings)

Yah, so you just can't do it due to actual game rule. You'll need to either get the King and the Doge to fall out and stop being liege-vassal, so that you then become Genoa's liege (but this risks Genoa going independent), or take over as King through the method of your choice, as metanetwork says.

 

[cvoky210]

Actually, you could make them your direct vassal by granting them king-tier title (ideally titular, such as Cyprus). Unfortunately it ought to make them powerful vassal and they will probably start to vassalize and conquer people both inside and outside of your realm.
PS: Don't give them big de jure kingdom, such as Italy

 

[MK1980]

pretty sure genoa can create a titular kingdom if run by a merchant republic. they probably can't while they are subvassal of italy, though.

there's no easy way to change that. you can revoke italy and hold it yourself and give a 2nd duchy to genoa. maybe they can then create their titular kingdom since they are technically a direct vassal of you.

anyway, making them king tier is the way to go. you may still have to babysit them, though. king of italy will still have de jure claims on them so it's very likely that they will subjugate them and make them a subvassal when you don't pay attention.

the only safe solution if you want to keep them around is to give them the kingdom of italy.
alternative solutions would be to destroy the MR of genoa and create a new MR from some other minor kingdom nearby. sardinia is a fairly small kingdom and in a good spot for that task.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Interestingly, in a previous patch Mercahant Republics would not automatically be placed under a King if you granted their De Jure Kingdom to someone - they stayed a vassal of the top liege.

Anyway - in this case you need to revoke or inherit Italy - if you then grant Genoa another Duchy title their will create their titular Kingdom/Serene Republic.

 

[jwalche]

I will say again. King tier is NOT THE WAY TO GO for a vassal merchant republic. There is NO BENEFIT and only potential problems.

Select ducal titles that you own the land and will name make their de jure kingdom title. Rename the titles so you won't forget. And use them to create the MR, and not their own de jure ducal titles.

For example, if you have conquered Ireland, what can you do with its shitty tribal counties? Just transfer all the bishops to one of your direct feudal vassal, give all the counties for someone to keep, and use its ducal titles to create all the MR you need.

If problem like this happens with ducal MR, simply putting him under a vassal king and taking him out often solves it.

That said, one of common problem with king tier vassal merchant republic is that you can't revoke any titles when you should be able to. Try retracting any non de jure vassals. If not working, then try murdering him and see if you can do it with his successor. Last time when I made a mistake, I could revoke his titles after retracting all the vassals one by one.

 

[Chunakun]

Anyway - in this case you need to revoke or inherit Italy - if you then grant Genoa another Duchy title their will create their titular Kingdom/Serene Republic.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the the Doges of Genoa and Pisa need to be independent to create their Titular Kingdoms, which will also make Genoa/Pisa de jure territory of the respective kingdoms.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the the Doges of Genoa and Pisa need to be independent to create their Titular Kingdoms, which will also make Genoa/Pisa de jure territory of the respective kingdoms.

This is not the case in my experience - I have engineered the creation of the higher titles as the Byzantine Emperor for exactly this reason.

 

[Chunakun]

This is not the case in my experience - I have engineered the creation of the higher titles as the Byzantine Emperor for exactly this reason.

Maybe because of the special government type the Byzantine Emperor has which is basically a republic. But I do not think it works if you are under a feudal emperor. look at the current requirements to create k_genoa (the same apply for k_pisa)
Create the Kingdom of Genoa

• - 500 Wealth
• The Kingdom of Genoa will become the primary title and copies laws of previous title.
• The Kingdom of Genoa becomes the de jure liege of the Duchyof genoa

• Is a republic or a Merchant Republic
• Adult, independent, at peace, and not incapable
  
• Owns 2 Duchies
• Must have 500 wealth.
• Must have 500 prestige.
• Owns the County of Genoa
• Owns the Duchy of Genoa
• Kingdom of Genoa is titular and has no holder.
• Not a higher tier than a Duke

Alternate Start Settings:

• De Jure is Not Random
• Title Names are Not Random
• Title Names are Not Random Including Duchies