ok so then a unit like US rangers in stars and stripes mod that has 15 toughness and defensiveness but an attack similar to infantry isn't that good compared to infantry?
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Unless they have significantly higher org, morale, strength or terrain modifiers too yes basically.
My understanding is a bit more complicated than that, but basically, every unit of toughness or defensiveness has an 80% chance to stop one unit of HA or SA (depending on which is being used for the current attack). But it gets weirder because once a unit runs out of defensiveness or toughness in a combat round, every additional shot fired at the unit still has a 60% chance to miss (according the wiki and its relevant forum threads). But once a shot hits, it does X damage (and that damage is not mitigated in any way, I don't think). Then there are reductions in values from units being understrength which are not well understood...
But because of how damage is inflicted, ORG is really important. A higher base ORG will increase the speed with which it regenerates (on top of morale techs). It will also give the unit more staying power in a fight. While defensiveness and toughness have a place, I think ORG is much more important in the big scheme of things AND it is easier to increase. (Officer ratio, doctrines that cost zero IC and that apply instantly)
Special forces generally have higher ORG at the same tech levels as regular INF, just like regular INF has higher ORG at the same techs compared to MIL. But each of these base units with higher ORG generally cost more officers as well, making that additional ORG come at a price. In fact, the additional officer cost of special forces in (FtM) is more than the ORG increase for the unit itself, meaning that you get ORG cheaper from MIL than INF or special forces (the reduced officer cost makes it easier to get to 140% officers, meaning you get more ORG for fewer officers...). Now, someone with nice math skills could compute the combined effect of toughness, defensiveness, ORG, and terrain bonuses to determine whether special forces are worth it in a particular situation.
But all of that is a sideshow to the advantage of TDs when attached to MOT or MECH. The CA bonus, especially with the right leaders and doctrines, coupled with the speed potential of MOT/TD or MECH/TD divisions, means that even if TDs had stupid stats, the division they help create is really nice. Of course, these divisions require lots of logistical support, meaning that they can't function in all theaters with equal quality.
Ill argue the MOT+TD divisions require very little logistical support compared to most other CA divisions with high speed!
Yup. Vanilla ARM+SPART division has total supplies/fuel usage that is almost double that of MOT+TD. TDs are incredibly efficient source of mobile hardness and hard attack both in supplies/fuel and IC ( mainly cause of ART practicals ).
I meant more in comparison with INF or special forces. I didn't want anyone to read my post and think that invading the hinterlands of Cambodia with 20 divisions of MOT/TD was a good idea. (There's always someone who thinks that MOT, MECH, and tracked armor should be waltzing through the jungles and pwning everything...)
Yes, the division is better logistically than armored formations. LARM uses more fuel, but slightly less supplies than MOT (but it is also faster). ARM is slower than both LARM and MOT, but uses a lot more fuel and supplies. TDs use less fuel than any of these, but you gotta pay attention to armor techs to keep their speed up. MECH is a pretty good buy logistically compared to armor, too.
Has anyone made calculations for given IC/Days how many 2x Mot+ 2x TD divisions can be produced compared to "standard" Armor 2x Arm+1x Mot+ 1x Spart?
Using 1942 tech level as reference, base ICd cost is 5020 (1710+800)x2 vs 2921 (560 + 900)x2. But I am comparing with "standard" of 2xARM+2xSPA. Combat stats wise ARM+SPA is just plain unbeatable. MOT+TD costs 35% more MP, has 47% less Soft Attack and has got no hard on soft bonus.
EDIT: I am not sure if these values are 100% perfect as i am getting them from excellent "Units comparer tool" xls. But i have noticed that it is not incrementing costs for each tech level ( and i think they used to rise this way? 1% each level? )
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Interesting, thank you.
So Armor is holding its territory firmly.
Anyhow, for immersion I "must" have at least one motorized division per panzer korps,and if it is so, than its MOT/TD design.
I did experimented with "true" motorised division, which will be I sopose 3x MOT + 1 Spart, its realy fast but is so soft,and it operates in hard duty enviroment of Panzerkorps,its to soft for the job.
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I'd say that ART and SPART are the kings of value, not Armor
ARM just gives those divisions solid amount of base stats, boosts all that with combined arms bonus and slaps hard on soft on all this pile making this one epic division.
Yeah if it weren't for having 0 frontage making divisions of TD's and SParts would be pretty good.I'd say that ART and SPART are the kings of value, not Armor
I guess the base ICd is the key here.
Given need for research and practical bonus MOT+TD has an advantage compared to ARM + SPArt. The also use less fuel and supplies so less IC thereas well.
That does not in any way men that they have better combat stat than ARM+SPA. What is "best" depends on what country you play, if you can get fuel & suplies to the front etc.
Comrade Portal.
There is no need to feel like an idiot.
The Holy Corugian Empire once toyed with the same set up you have described. Likewise, the Imperial Might of za GREATEST MIILTARY CIVILISATION to have EVAR existed (EVAR !!!6!!!) also made the fascinating discovery that it had created an AWESOME ARMED UNIT of MASSIVE DESTRUCTIVE POTENTIAL that was strangely incapable of fighting....
How did the Holy Corugian Empire come to terms with this discovery you might well ask?
Ok, so faced with the threat of being labelled an idiot, I commanded a crack team of Corugian Scientists to work around the clock to devise a cunning solution. They worked diligently, no doubt inpsired by the fact that any failure on their part would result in their addition to the food chain as facilatated by the crocodiles above the Corugi bunker.
Their results were brilliant. They hastily presented this TOTALLY IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC DOGMA that proves beyond all doubt that Corugi can never be an idiot.
I wish to share it with you. Free of charge. Here it is:
Corugi is right.
Corugi is always right.
Corugi is always right even when He is wrong, which is never.
With the only minor modification of substituting your own name for mine, you will be able to scientifically justify anything you do without appearing to be an idiot. That includes things like building battleships inside-out and paratrooping heavy armour on your enemy.
Isn't science great?
So would building say TD instead of armour be way better? Cause Armour is expensive?
And btw I am talking about versing human players not AI, cause AI is shit.
And btw I am talking about versing human players not AI, cause AI is shit.
When they can be employed in a combined arms division, against enemy hard formations (below 50% strength) and if you have them upgraded. Then I would say certainly yes.
Armor is better at endurance (strength) and soft attack ofcourse, so it's much more versatile.
Maybe I am a bit late for this but: Combined arms DOES waltz through the jungle. Imho that's still one of the biggest problems with HoI3: Terrain penalties can be negated by the CA bonus.
I mean, it has become a bit better with FTM (compared to vanilla where CA tank divisions could fight everywhere without any problem), but as for me, hard units should suffer a LOT more. :<
But supplying it in the jungle is an exercise in futility. I've tried defending the Philippines with MECH/TD before, and they spent most of the time half out of supply and moving slow. I didn't lose the Philippines, but MAR or INF could have done it just as well, and cheaper besides.
The CA bonus can be abused, no doubt about it. But you'd be better off in terms of resources spent and time spent using MAR or INF to invade all those places. Armored units have better things to do than take Saigon from the French.
The Americans found tank support extreme valuable and useful in Vietnam. Tank divisions should be able to punch soft divisions even in jungle and I find that the logistical difficulty of keeping them supplied there is enough.
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