Tribal Elective Gavelkind - Risky gain succession support method

[Tryvenyal]

Hi,

How about duel someone to support my candidate for my titles?

My vassals who hates me will never willingly support my will in any matter.

As tribal, I probably have a little or no respect for my vassals free will. To the cost of some tyranny and the risk of civil war, I challenge .. No.. Demand a duel!

if he submits, he must vote for my candidate as long as I live.

If he accepts.. And I win.. And he survives... He must vote for my candidate as long as I live.

If he accepts... And wins.. Well.. Let´s hope he don't!! Other than killing or humiliating you, I think of him usurping my primary title?

If he refuses... I get a civil war(Like a failed but justified imprisonment), meaning most vassals might actually stay loyal, unlike I´m very unliked and/or has high tyranny.

So, a diplomatic decision, visible if target:
(*) Is my voting vassal
(*) Succession law is EG
(*) Government is Tribal
(*) Vassal is not imprisoned

Enabled if:
(*)Vassal supports another target than I do
(*) I have not changed my supported heir recently(Last 6 months?)

Comes in a message like title revocation, imprisonment, vassal retraction: "Give me succession support or I duel you into submission!" with options "Ehhhh...I submit.." / "Any last wishes?" / "You are not my king!"

 

[majdavlk]

Interesting concept but i do not think it fits the elective gavelkind succession.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Interesting concept but i do not think it fits the elective gavelkind succession.

What elective succession would it fit better?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

What elective succession would it fit better?

it doesn't fit elective succession at all

 

[Tryvenyal]

it doesn't fit elective succession at all

But maybe tribal...?

 

[majdavlk]

But maybe tribal...?

Tribal is not elective succession, it is a governmnet type.

But if you ment that tribal could get access to another succession type, then i think this might be an interesting mechanic for it.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Tribal is not elective succession, it is a governmnet type.

But if you ment that tribal could get access to another succession type, then i think this might be an interesting mechanic for it.

I know. But this option should not for EG but for Tribals with EG(Or maybe any elective tribals)

 

[majdavlk]

I know. But this option should not for EG but for Tribals with EG(Or maybe any elective tribals)

I do not think it should have anything to do with elective gavelkind, but as a different succession law it would be interesting mechanic.

 

[Tryvenyal]

I do not think it should have anything to do with elective gavelkind, but as a different succession law it would be interesting mechanic.

No, I don't mean it should ONLY be about duels but duels as an enforcement to the elective system.

In any elective system, there are ways to manipulate how an elector votes. With tribal government and any elective succession-law, duels can be a more central part of diplomacy.

 

[Karlington]

No, I don't mean it should ONLY be about duels but duels as an enforcement to the elective system.

In any elective system, there are ways to manipulate how an elector votes. With tribal government and any elective succession-law, duels can be a more central part of diplomacy.

Your suggestion for lifetime vote control sort of eliminates the elective aspect, and seems more like pure power-gaming.

Duels already have a strong place in tribal government with claims duels. With the claims generated by gavelkind realms can be reunited through "duel conquest."

 

[Tryvenyal]

Your suggestion for lifetime vote control sort of eliminates the elective aspect, and seems more like pure power-gaming.

Hmm.. Is that not the same as when you use a favour for succession support?
and the risks are quite high, right..? and come on.. power game with EG..?

 

[Tryvenyal]

Duels already have a strong place in tribal government with claims duels. With the claims generated by gavelkind realms can be reunited through "duel conquest."

... Which I see as a far stronger features than what I propose here!

 

[Karlington]

Hmm.. Is that not the same as when you use a favour for succession support?
and the risks are quite high, right..? and come on.. power game with EG..?

It seems very different to me, especially the time limit?

That being said, I wish we weren't able to use favors to control election votes. At best they should only give an election score bonus. As it is powerful rulers can control elections way too easily.

... Which I see as a far stronger features than what I propose here!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, heh. Your system allows a character to wait until he is far stronger than his opponent to ensure lifetime control of his vote, the current claims duel system requires you to fight an opponent to even get the benefits of the land since in the meantime it's independent from you.

 

[Tryvenyal]

It seems very different to me, especially the time limit?

Well, I want the same as what you can get from a favour and I think it´s "Until your successor is installed or I die" - He will vote for my candidate as long as we both live. But not completely sure!

Your system allows a character to wait until he is far stronger than his opponent to ensure lifetime control of his vote

Not THAT hard to get the same effect from a favour.... A tribal lord costs 80 ducats to buy a favour from.. if he is not a Councillor, he likely agrees to this at ~30 opinion.

... and secure?
Even if you win, your target might die from the duel wounds(a brutal overpowered tribal pagan beserk can easely use abit more violence than needed....)
And still you can always lose.. losing your main title and probably die.
If he refuse you get a civil war...!

 

[Karlington]

Well, I want the same as what you can get from a favour and I think it´s "Until your successor is installed or I die" - He will vote for my candidate as long as we both live. But not completely sure!

I'm not 100% sure either, but I'm fairly confident that it's time-limited and only lasts a few years. Still, as I mentioned, I think even that's overpowered.

Not THAT hard to get the same effect from a favour.... A tribal lord costs 80 ducats to buy a favour from.. if he is not a Councillor, he likely agrees to this at ~30 opinion.

... and secure?
Even if you win, your target might die from the duel wounds(a brutal overpowered tribal pagan beserk can easely use abit more violence than needed....)
And still you can always lose.. losing your main title and probably die.
If he refuse you get a civil war...!

I understand what you're saying, I'm just of a different mind. I think we'll have to file this one under "I respect you and your opinion, so let's agree to disagree" ?

 

[Tryvenyal]

I'm not 100% sure either, but I'm fairly confident that it's time-limited and only lasts a few years. Still, as I mentioned, I think even that's overpowered.

If it isn't, then I want the same as the favour

I do respect you but I don't understand what part of it you consider overpowered. I´m really only suggesting a duel to give you one of all the things you can easily use a favour for
Using a favour for succession support is othervice nothing I use frequently. Only as ERE.. With EG, you at least know you will still play as the succeeding ruler...

Is it that I can "freely" duel my electors? That's actually an argument against that I have not considered.