Just started an Italian game (purely for fun), nice to see the oft-ignored boot get an AAR- Will this be a ame from 1860 onward with a long prologue or will be playing as an Italian major on GC or something just as juicy?
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Ahura Mazda said:
Nothing like recession to get the party started.
Looking forward to future updates.
The Italian States Following the Congress of Vienna
Prior to the Napoleonic wars, the Italian peninsula was divided among 11 different nations. This of course includes Austria’s control of Lombardia. Of all the various principalities and republics, none had truly raised itself as the premier Italian state, as had occurred in Germany with the Prussians and Austrians vying for dominance.
Following the Congress of Vienna, the situation changed as the dominant power in the region was clearly the Hapsburgs ruling from Wien. The Austrian provinces of Lombardia were combined with Veneto to form the new kingdom of Lombardo-Veneto. Of course while technically this was an independent kingdom, it was in reality a puppet state of the Austrians at best, and was for the most part directly controlled from Shönbrunn in Wien.
Likewise the republic of Genoa was absorbed into the Kingdom of Sardinia, and with that the Italian Maritime Republics were no more. The Kingdom of Sardinia was then renamed into the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont to reflect their growing presence on the Italian mainland. Of course control of the kingdom had been based out of Turin on the mainland ever since the 1720’s, so it was only logical to reflect this in the name.
To the south, the Kingdom of Sicily likewise underwent a name change following the Napoleonic wars. The new name was the kingdom of Two Sicilies. Granted it wasn’t much of a name change but as was the case with Sardinia, it reflected the fact that power no longer rested on the islands, but on the mainland.
In the center of Italy, the Catholic Church held temporal power over the lands of the Papal States. While Napoleon feuded with the Pope continually over the right to rule this region, he ultimately failed in his efforts to force the Pope to release his temporal powers. Thus with Napoleon’s defeat the Pope was restored to Rome and the Papal States were again placed under his direct authority.
The remaining lands in Italy were divided among the duchies of Parma, Modena, and Lucca and the grand duchy of Tuscany. Of these, the only the duchy of Lucca was not ruled by a Hapsburg. In fact the duchy of Parma was ruled by Marie Louise of Austria, who was better known to history as Napoleon’s second wife.
Clearly the first obstacle to Italian unification must be the end of Austrian dominance in Italy.
Italy as of January 1836
Prior to the Napoleonic wars, the Italian peninsula was divided among 11 different nations. This of course includes Austria’s control of Lombardia. Of all the various principalities and republics, none had truly raised itself as the premier Italian state, as had occurred in Germany with the Prussians and Austrians vying for dominance.
Following the Congress of Vienna, the situation changed as the dominant power in the region was clearly the Hapsburgs ruling from Wien. The Austrian provinces of Lombardia were combined with Veneto to form the new kingdom of Lombardo-Veneto. Of course while technically this was an independent kingdom, it was in reality a puppet state of the Austrians at best, and was for the most part directly controlled from Shönbrunn in Wien.
Likewise the republic of Genoa was absorbed into the Kingdom of Sardinia, and with that the Italian Maritime Republics were no more. The Kingdom of Sardinia was then renamed into the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont to reflect their growing presence on the Italian mainland. Of course control of the kingdom had been based out of Turin on the mainland ever since the 1720’s, so it was only logical to reflect this in the name.
To the south, the Kingdom of Sicily likewise underwent a name change following the Napoleonic wars. The new name was the kingdom of Two Sicilies. Granted it wasn’t much of a name change but as was the case with Sardinia, it reflected the fact that power no longer rested on the islands, but on the mainland.
In the center of Italy, the Catholic Church held temporal power over the lands of the Papal States. While Napoleon feuded with the Pope continually over the right to rule this region, he ultimately failed in his efforts to force the Pope to release his temporal powers. Thus with Napoleon’s defeat the Pope was restored to Rome and the Papal States were again placed under his direct authority.
The remaining lands in Italy were divided among the duchies of Parma, Modena, and Lucca and the grand duchy of Tuscany. Of these, the only the duchy of Lucca was not ruled by a Hapsburg. In fact the duchy of Parma was ruled by Marie Louise of Austria, who was better known to history as Napoleon’s second wife.
Clearly the first obstacle to Italian unification must be the end of Austrian dominance in Italy.
Italy as of January 1836
Last edited:
Temporal Power and the Donation of Constantine
Temporal power is term used to describe the political and territorial authority exercised by the Popes in Italy, as contrasted to their spiritual authority. It was the justification for the existence of the Papal States, a collection of provinces in central Italy controlled and administered directly by the Roman Catholic Church. By the start of the Victorian Age the Papal States were recognized as a sovereign and independent nation that raised its own armies, and freely entered into treaties and alliances like all other nations. In fact by 1836 the Papal States had defensive alliances with each and every other Italian state as well as have their independence guaranteed by both the French and the Austrians.
The justification for temporal power was based upon the donation of Constantine. This donation granted to Pope Sylvester I and his successors the right to rule the city of Rome, and in fact the entire Western Roman Empire. This was Constantine’s way of repaying Sylvester I for baptizing him in the Christian faith, and curing him of Leprosy. The documentation for this donation did not truly appear until the 750’s (four centuries later) as justification for Pepin the Short’s donation of the Lombard’s lands around Rome. (Of course the fact that Pope Stephen supported Pepin’s bid to become king, and supplant the old Merovingian line probably had nothing to do with Pepin’s donation).
For 7 centuries the document stood as accepted fact despite lingering questions as to whether or not Constantine had the right to give such a donation. Things changed however in 1440 when Lorenzo Valla published his treatise on the matter which analyzed the language of the document and found it to be incompatible with the time of Constantine. For this reason Valla’s book was placed on the Vatican’s list of prohibited books. Finally in 1612 the Vatican formally acknowledged the fact that the donation of Constantine was a forgery. They were however unwilling to give their lands back and so things continued pretty much as they always had.
By 1836 the Italian people were split with regards to the Popes temporal powers. There were those who felt the church should relinquish all temporal power back to the local nobles, and kings. Others wanted to see the Pope’s powers enlarged. They countered that neither the Savoy kings of Sardinia, nor the Bourbon monarchs of the Two Sicilies would accept the other, and thus the Pope was seen as the only remaining choice that hopefully all could live with.
Pope Gregory XVI, pope since 1831
The present pope, Gregory XVI, would love to see the Papal States expanded to include all of Italy, but his conservative and reactionary policies have not endeared him to the common man. He has heretofore opposed any democratizing or modernizing reforms in the Papal States, and there is little reason to expect that would change were he in control of the entire peninsula.
Temporal power is term used to describe the political and territorial authority exercised by the Popes in Italy, as contrasted to their spiritual authority. It was the justification for the existence of the Papal States, a collection of provinces in central Italy controlled and administered directly by the Roman Catholic Church. By the start of the Victorian Age the Papal States were recognized as a sovereign and independent nation that raised its own armies, and freely entered into treaties and alliances like all other nations. In fact by 1836 the Papal States had defensive alliances with each and every other Italian state as well as have their independence guaranteed by both the French and the Austrians.
The justification for temporal power was based upon the donation of Constantine. This donation granted to Pope Sylvester I and his successors the right to rule the city of Rome, and in fact the entire Western Roman Empire. This was Constantine’s way of repaying Sylvester I for baptizing him in the Christian faith, and curing him of Leprosy. The documentation for this donation did not truly appear until the 750’s (four centuries later) as justification for Pepin the Short’s donation of the Lombard’s lands around Rome. (Of course the fact that Pope Stephen supported Pepin’s bid to become king, and supplant the old Merovingian line probably had nothing to do with Pepin’s donation).
For 7 centuries the document stood as accepted fact despite lingering questions as to whether or not Constantine had the right to give such a donation. Things changed however in 1440 when Lorenzo Valla published his treatise on the matter which analyzed the language of the document and found it to be incompatible with the time of Constantine. For this reason Valla’s book was placed on the Vatican’s list of prohibited books. Finally in 1612 the Vatican formally acknowledged the fact that the donation of Constantine was a forgery. They were however unwilling to give their lands back and so things continued pretty much as they always had.
By 1836 the Italian people were split with regards to the Popes temporal powers. There were those who felt the church should relinquish all temporal power back to the local nobles, and kings. Others wanted to see the Pope’s powers enlarged. They countered that neither the Savoy kings of Sardinia, nor the Bourbon monarchs of the Two Sicilies would accept the other, and thus the Pope was seen as the only remaining choice that hopefully all could live with.
The present pope, Gregory XVI, would love to see the Papal States expanded to include all of Italy, but his conservative and reactionary policies have not endeared him to the common man. He has heretofore opposed any democratizing or modernizing reforms in the Papal States, and there is little reason to expect that would change were he in control of the entire peninsula.
Last edited:
Ah good old Greg makes his appearance. He's like a Catholic Ian Paisley
Are you using VIP or some other mod? I ask because of the colour of Two Sicilies.
Are you using VIP or some other mod? I ask because of the colour of Two Sicilies.
Vanilla Ricky. There is a slight "mod" that basically disables the terain view as the game intended, and instead paints the provinces in a single color when in the terain view. I use this mod because it frees up memory, and speeds up the game (I'm using an older computer). One of the little side effects is that some of the nations colors are a little different.ComradeOm said:
Hm, seems like three factions dream of Italian unification while others would love for it to stay fragmented. No doubt Italy will unify, question is who of the Italian factions will reap the reward of total control of the peninsula. Loved the picture/symbol when speaking about the Papal States.
Just a little nitpicking here.
Vienna's german name is Wien (pronounced like queen just with a w: "ween") :rofl:
And Wein is pronounced like wine and it actually means the same.
I guess you mean that the papal states were restored and not the pope per se.
Vienna's german name is Wien (pronounced like queen just with a w: "ween") :rofl:
And Wein is pronounced like wine and it actually means the same.
I guess you mean that the papal states were restored and not the pope per se.
Ehm, and Lombardo actually is not a noun but an adjective. You could use Lombardia (it) or Lombardy (eng) more precisely. The Kingdom instead is rightfully "Lombardo-Veneto".
But keep on, your documentation work is really huge.
But keep on, your documentation work is really huge.
Some Feedback
Likewise Italy has always been one of my favorite nations to play, once you get past the Austrians, the possibilities are limitless. As to the French, I never really have much trouble with them. They’re always working to improve our relations so even if I go to war with them, it never last too long, and they are soon spamming me with improved relationsComradeOm said:
This will be a grand campaign starting in 1836. Of course I plan to make this an Italian AAR so unification should take place ASAP (Certainly faster than happened historically).Jape said:
Then I shall try not to disappoint. Unifying Italy is never too difficult for me, it’s paying for it that’s the problem.Ahura Mazda said:
Well, given my playing style I expect we should be in debt pretty much from day 1.Dr. Gonzo said:Nothing like recession to get the party started.
ThanksMichaeru said:
Indeed that was the problem face by the Italians historically. There was a desire for unity, but no one was willing to give any ground to allow it to happen. Usually in cases like that, war becomes inevitable, which is a good thing considering my warmonger tendencies.Terraferma said:
Thanks, I should have caught that one myself, but I was doped up on cough medicine at the time. As to the restoration of the Pope you are of course correct, he was never officially deposed by the French, although he was forced out of Rome and held as a veritable prisoner by Napoleon from 1808 to 1814. I have reworded the phrase to hopefully make it more understandable. (Again I blame it on the cough medicine).Treppe said:
Thanks, (see not above about cough medicine). I have of course corrected this slip up. I do appreciate any help people have to offer when I make slip ups like that. Unfortunately I am dealing with an area of history that is not necessarily one of my strongest, so I am doing a lot of studying while writing this AAR. I hope to not have too many slip ups but if you see anymore, please let me know.Hastu Neon said:
Thanks, I have one or maybe two more updates, and then we can begin the real story/game play. Hopefully I can get those knocked out tonight, because I really want to get the story moving forward.stnylan said:
First, nice updates. Sardinia-Piemont will get an introduction too, I presume? But second, where can I obtain this terrain mod?
Ferdinando II, of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies
Ferdinando Carlo ruled as Ferdinando II of The Kingdom of Two Sicilies, since the death of his father Francis I in 1830. Ascending to the throne at the young age of 20 he held the promise of certain liberal tendencies in the early stages of his reign. Upon taking the crown he published an edit that promised to give his immediate attention to the impartial administration of justice, as well as a reform of the countries financial system. These he did, while cutting taxes and modernizing the lands under his domain. He saw to the building of the first Italian railway and the first Italian steamship. These reforms and modernizations coupled with his easy manners endeared him to the people of all classes in Neapolitan society.
Ferdinando II, King of the Two Sicilies
This would change in 1837 when demonstrators in Sicily demanded a constitution from the King. It was a demand met with extreme ruthlessness by the king, as civil rights were suppressed, and police powers were greatly increased throughout the realm of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies.
With regards to the unification of the Italian people, Fernando II was both for and against the issue. By that he was for the issue if it made him king of Italy, while against it if it meant the loss of power for him or his descendants. Such was the impasse faced by the Italian people, as self interest and ambitions in their rulers rated higher than the needs and desires of the people. In times like these there is only one higher power to which the people can turn, the Will of God…
Ferdinando Carlo ruled as Ferdinando II of The Kingdom of Two Sicilies, since the death of his father Francis I in 1830. Ascending to the throne at the young age of 20 he held the promise of certain liberal tendencies in the early stages of his reign. Upon taking the crown he published an edit that promised to give his immediate attention to the impartial administration of justice, as well as a reform of the countries financial system. These he did, while cutting taxes and modernizing the lands under his domain. He saw to the building of the first Italian railway and the first Italian steamship. These reforms and modernizations coupled with his easy manners endeared him to the people of all classes in Neapolitan society.
This would change in 1837 when demonstrators in Sicily demanded a constitution from the King. It was a demand met with extreme ruthlessness by the king, as civil rights were suppressed, and police powers were greatly increased throughout the realm of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies.
With regards to the unification of the Italian people, Fernando II was both for and against the issue. By that he was for the issue if it made him king of Italy, while against it if it meant the loss of power for him or his descendants. Such was the impasse faced by the Italian people, as self interest and ambitions in their rulers rated higher than the needs and desires of the people. In times like these there is only one higher power to which the people can turn, the Will of God…
Last edited:
Its funny to see "Bomba" looking slim
Another accurate summary of a facet of the often complicated Italian politics. The only thing I'd note is that Ferdinand II, being a member of the House of Bourbon, was not especially popular with Italian nationalists at the time.
Another accurate summary of a facet of the often complicated Italian politics. The only thing I'd note is that Ferdinand II, being a member of the House of Bourbon, was not especially popular with Italian nationalists at the time.
I'm glad you appreciate it. At the start of this scenario, he should be 26 years old, and it is incredibly hard to find a picture that shows him so young (I know, I've been looking online for hours). Personally considering how much weight he gained, I would have thought he would want to show more pictures from his youth. I know I doComradeOm said:Its funny to see "Bomba" looking slim
As to the nationalist you are correct. His repressive and self serving tendencies following the 1837 Sicilian demonstrations certainly cast a dim shadow as to what kind of monarch he would be should he gain lordship over the entire peninsula.