The "Mono Stacking" Problem

[Jolly Joker]

More enchantments for Mythic units will lead to high tier unit proliferation Mythic edition, not a great idea.

Not so, because by the time you can produce Mythicals (in significant amounts) AND have maybe researched a T4 and/or T5 enchentment you can actually use on said Mythical you will have mass-enchanted T3 and T4 already. I'd like the Mythicals to actually be able to make a difference and not succumb to enchanted regular units. I mean, is there any reason to get Dragons into your army?

 

[bagas12]

Not so, because by the time you can produce Mythicals (in significant amounts) AND have maybe researched a T4 and/or T5 enchentment you can actually use on said Mythical you will have mass-enchanted T3 and T4 already. I'd like the Mythicals to actually be able to make a difference and not succumb to enchanted regular units. I mean, is there any reason to get Dragons into your army?

I still feel the strongest solution for Mythic is taking a page of Planetfall and add passive benefits for it to work as a 1 per stack unit, i mean, every time i look at a Mythic i think of the flagship of the navy a unit that would not want to share its top spot with another Mystic.

So if allowing enchantments on them is really not the play, and seeing them being massed would be boring as hell, they should just become the unit you build once and supercharge your army like a Kir'ko Harbinger or the Zenith, hit them just straight up with buffs that make them desirable to get at least 1 or 3 (1 for each stack), spawn extra units like t1 spiders and small dragons if they are unique on the army, earn a new skill, there are a lot of potential ideas here.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Shouldn't that be the Support Unit's job? I mean, I wrote my part about them. Since you'll always have Hero(es) in important battles that can have healing abilities as well, I don't think you need one-shot units with a healing ability that are difficult to enchant. I would like them to be the way Supportive heroes are, so that you can basically use them instead of a hero and without enchantments.

Since in my view these T4 and T5 Mythical-exclusive enchantments would more or less work exclusively on them you could let them cost Imperium upkeep.

 

[Codyksp]

Dude, you must stop arguing on the basis of your mod. That is ridiculous. It's also ridiculous to assume the game would be "balanced" then.

You clearly know that the game is unbalanced, as you keep referring to individual unit issues being the problem.
So why are you now backpedalling on that statement? Units have been balanced in the mod, I don't care if you agree.
What I care about is that the entire community agrees and that we aren't screaming for nerfs or buffs all the time.

In a healthy game, where units are balanced, Ranged does not overperform unless stacked with enchantments.
Whether or not you agree with this statement is irrelevant. You cannot disagree with a fact, that's not how it works.

For the record, I didn't say anything about my mod beyond health regen and balanced Ranged units.
Everything else is entirely based on the default game experience, maybe you should re-read what I said.

But if you want to use an unmodded Ranged example, Glade Runner is a perfectly healthy unit at the baseline level.

If it was "balanced" you wouldn't make a fuss here and have house rules.

Also there are no "house rules". We play the game as it is set up by default, by the developers. Is that a crime?
What you personally think about difficulty is not my concern and not the way the game was meant to be played.

The only true rule is regarding army engagement, because of the nature of simultaneous turns, to keep things fair.

Playing auto combat vs AI is not a rule, it is a logical choice. 4-8 players cannot do everything manually...
We'd be stuck watching every single combat and completing 1 turn per hour if we played like that.

So stop making arguments based on biased claims and look a little beyond the current state of the base game.

 

[Codyksp]

So isn't the issue that it's hard to get your shield enchantments after you've just spend all your research on getting (I assume ranged) enchantments for another unit?

It's not "hard" per se. The issue is the speed of research and the fact that you cannot simply pivot your strategy.
This isn't an RTS where you build a Stable and just begin pumping out Knights when you see Archer units...

I find it a weird position to take to complain that upgrading units makes them better than non-upgraded units.

You're misunderstanding it. The complaint is that the scaling goes too far, it has no limit.
Of course upgrades should improve a unit, but there should be a limit (oh look, Planetfall).

I suggest you try reducing the benefits of all enchantments in your mod, so the power difference is less between upgraded and non-upgraded units. It'll make it less bad to bring units with only a few enchantments.

The benefits are already relatively small, that's why having 1 or 2 enchantments doesn't spell automatic doom.
If they were made even less impactful then it would feel like nothing happens after casting them.

Their power level is not the issue, their infinite potential is. Scaling a T3 unit beyond a T5 unit is just not okay.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Also there are no "house rules". We play the game as it is set up by default, by the developers. Is that a crime?
What you personally think about difficulty is not my concern and not the way the game was meant to be played.

Nonsense:

In multiplayer we've currently restricted all T5 tome skills to 1 cast per combat, per player. This keeps it tactical.
Nobody wants to watch players spam double Tectonic Shatter or double Mass Rejuvenation (Heal + Revive).

That's a house rule.

You clearly know that the game is unbalanced, as you keep referring to individual unit issues being the problem.
So why are you now backpedalling on that statement? Units have been balanced in the mod, I don't care if you agree.
What I care about is that the entire community agrees and that we aren't screaming for nerfs or buffs all the time.

In a healthy game, where units are balanced, Ranged does not overperform unless stacked with enchantments.
Whether or not you agree with this statement is irrelevant. You cannot disagree with a fact, that's not how it works.

So you think, thanks to YOUR mod the game is now balanced, except for this little problem with enchantment stacking, but instead of trying to discuss these balance changes you simply assume they are great and want the developers to get out of their way to fulfill your wishes?
And about everything else you don't care because YOU think YOU have solved this for YOU and your little circle of players. When you don't have to look further than Legion of Zeal to see that it's completely unbalaced with a view on Skirmishers.
And you have the nerve to write:

So stop making arguments based on biased claims and look a little beyond the current state of the base game.

And then what, making arguments based on biased claims based on a mod like you? Thanks, no.

 

[bagas12]

Shouldn't that be the Support Unit's job? I mean, I wrote my part about them. Since you'll always have Hero(es) in important battles that can have healing abilities as well, I don't think you need one-shot units with a healing ability that are difficult to enchant. I would like them to be the way Supportive heroes are, so that you can basically use them instead of a hero and without enchantments.

Since in my view these T4 and T5 Mythical-exclusive enchantments would more or less work exclusively on them you could let them cost Imperium upkeep.

No reason why you need to consider limiting these things, Mythical tag already tells you they are "special", you can do whatever with them, you just need to make them interesting enough.

Supports are good on SP already, you just can't run them on MP because the opponent won't let you, he kills you by picking the strong tomes and out-tempo you, Mythic however, comes in late as hell, and you won't stop your build for it, but maybe you would consider if it helps the build itself, in SP however, since you are playing for fun, you can accept losing efficiency and still be chilling with them, my proposal is just in terms of making them another flavor of "unique" since they currently can't pick enchantments and be stat sticks, either way it's not me to decide which way is better, just giving food for thought

 

[Codyksp]

That's a house rule.

That's a rule for team battles, because the game is not properly set up for them.

Did you know an ally's turn still reduces the timer on various buffs and debuffs?
Yeah. Things like Steadfast are entirely murdered because of your ally's turn.

There are many weird interactions when playing 2v2 or 3v3 battles. Hence the rule.

So you think, thanks to YOUR mod the game is now balanced, except for this little problem with enchantment stacking, but instead of trying to discuss these balance changes you simply assume they are great and want the developers to get out of their way to fulfill your wishes?

You're making a fool of yourself... The changes are a cumulative effort of the entire community combined.
They merely tackle the balance of existing units/heroes, abilities, structures and tomes. By tweaking numbers.
They do not rework the entire game, because the tools provided do not allow us to do such a thing.

Despite out best efforts, some things cannot be solved by us. Such as hero stacking and enchantments stacking.
Triumph solved the first one, now I would like them to solve the second one. How is this difficult to understand?

The developers are aware of the mod, I am not going to make 20 topics for every change they should copy over.
They've already copied things in Wolf Update. They've also stated they aren't interested in "Small number changes".

And about everything else you don't care because YOU think YOU have solved this for YOU and your little circle of players. When you don't have to look further than Legion of Zeal to see that it's completely unbalaced with a view on Skirmishers.

I do not care about your issues with Legion of Zeal or Skirmishers. I can solve them myself with modding.
The developers can either (partially) copy those changes, or choose to ignore it. They chose the latter.

Here you go, a statement saying none of the PF content has planned changes. Everything is balanced.

 

[Kitschy]

Not so, because by the time you can produce Mythicals (in significant amounts) AND have maybe researched a T4 and/or T5 enchentment you can actually use on said Mythical you will have mass-enchanted T3 and T4 already. I'd like the Mythicals to actually be able to make a difference and not succumb to enchanted regular units. I mean, is there any reason to get Dragons into your army?

Yes and the goalpost will move from high tier units (T3/T4) to Mythics without solving the issue of unit diversity in the late game. This basically bring us back to manticore spam times of AoW3, but in a shiny new wrapper of Mythic-ness.

I still remember the hellish horrors of manticore spam to this day, please don't bring it back in to this game.

I still feel the strongest solution for Mythic is taking a page of Planetfall and add passive benefits for it to work as a 1 per stack unit, i mean, every time i look at a Mythic i think of the flagship of the navy a unit that would not want to share its top spot with another Mystic.

So if allowing enchantments on them is really not the play, and seeing them being massed would be boring as hell, they should just become the unit you build once and supercharge your army like a Kir'ko Harbinger or the Zenith, hit them just straight up with buffs that make them desirable to get at least 1 or 3 (1 for each stack), spawn extra units like t1 spiders and small dragons if they are unique on the army, earn a new skill, there are a lot of potential ideas here.

Yes, 100% this!
More synergies between Mythics and specific type lower tier units is imo the most interesting way to go. And it's not like it is a novel concept for the game when we already have Horned God with Shepherd of the Wild (animals and plants get fearless) or old Reaper (when it gave passive resistance to undead units and it would be great to have it back in some way).

 

[Jolly Joker]

No reason why you need to consider limiting these things, Mythical tag already tells you they are "special", you can do whatever with them, you just need to make them interesting enough.

Supports are good on SP already, you just can't run them on MP because the opponent won't let you, he kills you by picking the strong tomes and out-tempo you, Mythic however, comes in late as hell, and you won't stop your build for it, but maybe you would consider if it helps the build itself, in SP however, since you are playing for fun, you can accept losing efficiency and still be chilling with them, my proposal is just in terms of making them another flavor of "unique" since they currently can't pick enchantments and be stat sticks, either way it's not me to decide which way is better, just giving food for thought

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it, but it's not good to argue that in SP balance doesn't matter, while in MP it does and then cherry-pick which issues matter and which don't. If you cannot pick a Support in MP then something should be done that you can, same thing with Mythicals.

You're making a fool of yourself... The changes are a cumulative effort of the entire community combined.
They merely tackle the balance of existing units/heroes, abilities, structures and tomes. By tweaking numbers.
They do not rework the entire game, because the tools provided do not allow us to do such a thing.

And there I thought it was YOUR mod. If it's a cumulative effort of the whole community - where are the thousands supporting you? I call this bullsh!t.

That's a rule for team battles, because the game is not properly set up for them.

It's still a house rule. The game is set up for team battles - you AREN'T playing the game set up by default.

I do not care about your issues with Legion of Zeal or Skirmishers.

I do not care about your issue with multiple enchantments. Make them cost Imperium in your mod, that should be possible, case closed.

 

[Mammoet]

We play the game as it is set up by default, by the developers. Is that a crime?
What you personally think about difficulty is not my concern and not the way the game was meant to be played.

Yet you play with a mod that has balance changes, while the developers think everything is balanced. And I suspect the game is more designed around 'casual' single players rather than competitive multiplayer. Probably also why there's weirdness in 2v2 & 3v3 battles.
Not saying this is a good thing, but you can't claim you're playing the game as it's meant to be played while you're obviously not. There's also a whole bunch of world modifiers that wreak havoc on a whole bunch of things balance wise. Would you say you're not meant to play with those?

You're misunderstanding it. The complaint is that the scaling goes too far, it has no limit.

There is a finite number of enchantments, right? So it's not limitless... it's just too strong, hence my suggestion to tone them down for your mp club.

The benefits are already relatively small, that's why having 1 or 2 enchantments doesn't spell automatic doom.
If they were made even less impactful then it would feel like nothing happens after casting them.

Their power level is not the issue, their infinite potential is. Scaling a T3 unit beyond a T5 unit is just not okay.

So 3 is almost nothing, but 6 is too much???
I don't see why reducing the enchantments won't solve the issue of T3 scaling beyond T5. I know it's not a solution you came up with, but it will at least partly solve your issue.

 

[Kitschy]

...

I do not care about your issues with Legion of Zeal or Skirmishers. I can solve them myself with modding.
The developers can either (partially) copy those changes, or choose to ignore it. They chose the latter.

Here you go, a statement saying none of the PF content has planned changes. Everything is balanced.

View attachment 1125567

To be fair it could be a product of "new content treadmill" mindset. When devs are in a race to put out new stuff and don't have much time to balance old.
Stellaris faced this problem way back (imo still is struggling with it) when more and more stuff were introduced and it just piled up to such degree that Custodian team needed to be created to try and untangle that hot mess.

 

[Codyksp]

Yes, 100% this!
More synergies between Mythics and specific type lower tier units is imo the most interesting way to go. And it's not like it is a novel concept for the game when we already have Horned God with Shepherd of the Wild (animals and plants get fearless) or old Reaper (when it gave passive resistance to undead units and it would be great to have it back in some way).

This I also agree with, and I am thinking of drafting such passive buffs for every T5 unit.
The issue is that it feels rather boring and doesn't immediately stop you from stacking them.

It is probably something that deserves more thought and attention.

 

[Codyksp]

And there I thought it was YOUR mod. If it's a cumulative effort of the whole community - where are the thousands supporting you? I call this bullsh!t.

It is my mod, as I maintain it. I implement changes based on the community. Not sure why this confuses you.

For a balance mod, it has a lot of subscribers: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3110126531
I can also tell you that there are not 500 multiplayer subscribers on a game with 2000 players active per day.

Most people just don't invest into the forums, Steam or Discord. I'm fairly certain there's less than 100 people actually engaged on those platforms.

It's still a house rule. The game is set up for team battles - you AREN'T playing the game set up by default.

No, because I confirmed this with the developers. These are unintended mechanics they did not account for originally.
But hey, let me know when the developers know you by name and you can ask them stuff. Then you may correct me.

I do not care about your issue with multiple enchantments. Make them cost Imperium in your mod, that should be possible, case closed.

It would not because Imperium is already spread incredibly thin in Age of Wonders 4, but at least you tried I guess.

 

[Codyksp]

Yet you play with a mod that has balance changes, while the developers think everything is balanced.

I mean this is just plain wrong, they'll tell you that themselves. They just aren't as concerned with it as we are.

here's also a whole bunch of world modifiers that wreak havoc on a whole bunch of things balance wise. Would you say you're not meant to play with those?

We are not meant to play with all those modifiers no, I posted that 3 times now, with evidence.
You are free to use them to spice up your game but they are not intended as default settings.

I don't see why reducing the enchantments won't solve the issue of T3 scaling beyond T5. I know it's not a solution you came up with, but it will at least partly solve your issue.

It will make all enchantments in the game feel bad, that's not the goal.
The individual power they provide is in a good place, stacking is not.

Worst case scenario some of them get tiny buffs after being limited to 3.

 

[Jolly Joker]

No, because I confirmed this with the developers. These are unintended mechanics they did not account for originally.
But hey, let me know when the developers know you by name and you can ask them stuff. Then you may correct me.

No, really? They know you by name and you can ask them stuff? That is so AWESOME!
So if you are so thick with the devs - why are you bothering and boring the hell out of this forum? What are you waiting for? Go talk with them, remind them of your name they know and ask them to do your bidding already and screw the game up for everyone! Go go go!

 

[Codyksp]

No, really? They know you by name and you can ask them stuff? That is so AWESOME!
So if you are so thick with the devs - why are you bothering and boring the hell out of this forum? What are you waiting for? Go talk with them, remind them of your name they know and ask them to do your bidding already and screw the game up for everyone! Go go go!

Because this is the official place to post such things and spark discussion, as directed by the devs. Any more questions?

 

[Jolly Joker]

"As directed by the devs"? Are you completely out of your mind? The devs aren't "directing" anything, they just developed a game.

But, hey, aa disscussion you got. But I suppose by the wrong people.

 

[Codyksp]

"As directed by the devs"? Are you completely out of your mind? The devs aren't "directing" anything, they just developed a game.

This is the last reply I'll make in this manner, as I do not want to spend an entire page arguing with a brick wall.
You might want to check Discord, because two of the developers frequently engage with people over there.

Bug Report & Suggestions belong in the appropriate categories on this forum and they will always tell you that.
Regarding general improvements like balance concerns or raising awareness of a larger issue, they point us here.

It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not, all that matters is that I am doing as requested.
Now, please contribute something valuable or leave it be. As you are being rather childish right now.

 

[bagas12]

Not wanting to put too fine a point on it, but it's not good to argue that in SP balance doesn't matter, while in MP it does and then cherry-pick which issues matter and which don't. If you cannot pick a Support in MP then something should be done that you can, same thing with Mythicals.

I say it because i feel that in a scale of lost effectiveness i think the margin is very slim here already, as you have more stuff to do with them in SP that you won't in pvp, but what turns that margin in MP big is the factor that you win by details, so idk, there is plenty of stuff that feels much more in need of a look at, all supports feel good on SP, for example Druid of Cycle, in MP its horrible because there is not enough tools to make it work, but he is a beast in SP, his skills are all great.

It's good to think that SP and MP as 2 different game modes, like you would if you booted LOL (aram/standard) or age2 (treaty/standard), nothing wrong on thinking they should be balanced different.